How do you guys go about telling a band...

Amberience said:
I really don't agree about getting one guitarist to play the parts. What is the point? It's not a true reflection of the band, and so you're effectively lying to the people who are going to be listening/buying the album!

When I hear an album, I want to hear the BAND, not the producer or engineer. Talking about ego's .....
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Two albums come to mind from first thought:
Metallica - Master Of Puppets
Death - Individual Thought Patterns

Both of those cd's are done with one guy playing all the rhythm guitars (Hetfield, Schuldiner). Those are two of the heaviest and tightest albums out there, and you can't tell me that those cd's aren't accurate representations of the band.

Lets think the other direction: how about my favorite Pantera cd, Far beyond Driven. Dime didn't just record one guitar part for each song on the disc, but many. That album is heavier than fuck, and I guarantee you its not because he had Rex or Phil playing a guitar along with him to double the parts :err:

It's not a new concept that one guitarist play all the rhythm parts...it's not even always done because the other guys sucks, but just to get it *that* much tighter sounding. This is a stupid subject considering all the bands that run with samplers playing orchestras, symphonies, choirs or even any other form of instrument in the background....that is cheap, if you want to get down to the truth of it. Sure, not everyone is like Pink Floyd and can afford to have 40 people on stage to accurately play every part....in other words, it's subjective and doesn't fucking matter.

I do agree that recording a bands material with the plan to make them sound x amount better than they actually are...that is lame, and I'm sure I'll end up in the same situation anytime now.

With my band, one of the main reasons we are getting into a new drummer was our one session I tried to record drums. I spent about an hour setting up mics on our drummers kit and getting everything lined up...then we spent several hours not able to get him to play his part correctly, couldn't play to the click for shit. He would start with the click and then just gradually get faster as if he was getting excited. A whole day of recording gone to waste and I don't even want to record my own drummer anymore because of it, the shit made me so upset.
 
GuitarGodgt said:
That parts of thier song have shit arrangments. I'm working with this band now, the songs are killer for the most part but there are sections where the guitars are just not gelling at all. I'm having a hard time feeling it out honestly, with alot of noober bands I would just tell them "yeah that doesn't work musically, see how it sounds like muddy wierdness?".

Also: How the hell do you guys convince the band to only use 1 guitarist per song for tighter performance? I have to this day never been able to do it, egos are to big or something. :erk:
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Overplaying is the bigger problem in my opinion. Too much everything means too muddy. I usually try to scratch that out a bit, I did once so that when we were doing a rough version of the song, I said "can I try something that might make the song sound better". They said "sure". Then I listened the intro a few times, then I muted the other guitar, re-panned the guitars a little closer to the center and added the other guitar in only to after when they both played a melodic riff and the other guitarist did a squeal and faded it out again. The song sounded a really much better that way and then I asked "can your egos take it, if there is only one rhythm guitar on this song, and the other one works only as a lead guitarist like I did here?", the answer was "If it makes the song sound better, hell yeah".

I really don't agree about getting one guitarist to play the parts
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If the lead guitarist has player guitar for 9 years and the rhythm guitarist only for 2 year, the 9 year player is most likely far better player. For example Dead Shape Figure. Juhani (who looks like Kerry King) played all the guitar parts on their debut album except few solos were played by a guest guitarist (Mr. Crab, who looks like Dimebag Darrell), the other guitarist Erno didn't play a single chord on the album.

I also had a similiar case like this once, except that the 2 year player was a bass player and we were running out of time, so the guitarist had to play rest of the songs, played them both in on the first take. The bassist only played on one song of the EP, so his ego took a quite big hit and it pretty much showed him why you have to practice before you come into the studio, or in general. Next time I heard them, he played a lot better.
 
Hahahahah, Fat Mr. Crab! Man, I remember seeing "Born to Shred II" like 3 years ago, that video fucking rules (and maybe he's different now, but he looked absolutely NOTHING like Dimebag back then IMO :) )
 
I consider it my duty as a recordist, that if a band totally sucks, I will immortalise that suckiness in such a fashion that they will have a lasting record of just how goddamn awful they are.

I don't consider it a reflection on myself to be honest. People only notice poor production when the music is good.
 
PhilR said:
mixing music ruins you ability to enjoy recorded music without picking it apart. :p
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+1. It's frustrating....I hardly listen to music anymore outside my mixes. I am either analysing something or my wife complains about what i listen to and i turn it off to avoid any fights...
 
I've been, foremost, a guitar player for going on 20 years now. I've recorded many demos and some full-lengths in my time. I had to learn, a long time ago, that the rhythms should be recorded by one-guitarist-per-song. Sometimes it's me. Sometimes it's not me. The best way I can say to get the point across to a guitar player who is new to the idea is to ask him what some of his favorite records are. Chances are favorable that the records he lists will have been tracked with a one-guitarist-per-song philosophy. That's how I learned to understand it... Knowing that Hetfield recorded ALL the rhythm guitar on "...And Justice For All", that Kerry King did the same on "Seasons In The Abyss". That can really open a guitar players eyes. My band recently demoed 3 songs. I did 2 of them, and our other guitarist did the other one. I've realized that it doesn't always have to be the "one dude" who tracks the guitars, also. In my opinion, it's whichever guitarist gets that particular song across in the best way... whichever guitarist does the song justice.
 
In my first couple of years of producing i naively believed in the "fix it in the mix" approach (which is very common among Israeli sound engineers).
Eventually i realized that most of the parts that didn't click well in songs were a fault of poor arrangements/performance, and it also reduces the overall value of production.

Today I invite interested bands for a rehersal in the studio, for kind of an "introduction" session... when you can see instantly where are the bands highs and lows... production will take place only if i have a belief that there is a potential of pulling off a good record together.

Last year I have worked with a local band on their debut EP, with an intensive preproduction session, everything was demoed out pirior to the recordings themselves, click tracks.. etc... just out of the preproduction, the band found out that they have to replace the bass player for the record,
the drummer needed some focusaed work on specific issues that popped up on pre-prods, one guitarist ended up playing 90% of the rhythm parts...

These kind of changes and facts are stressful to (especially unexpirienced) bands. So I think it's important to prepare them ahead for changes that may arise in their regular group-dynamics, and they will have to put certain personal issues aside for the sake of pulling off a good record and having the best investment for their hard-earned money.

When a band welcomes this state of things, they are usually more open for suggestion and expirimintation with their musical arrangements, which will almost certainly have a great impact on the quality and value of the record.
 
Just from an observer standpoint, it would be interesting to hear what the raw tracks were like before your input, 'touch-ups' and what they sound like now. 'Course, I realize that really isn't an option, but still... to have the actual audio comparison of what you hear and how it sounds after would be of interest.

As a musician, woodshedding and constant practice as well as multiple takes are not really something you workaround but they can be significantly reduced by really being open to how things can sound different from one another just by playing slight variations on exactly the same part being played. Typically, you really have to know what you want and how to achieve it and then have the means to technically pull it off before you start burning to print. There's also the desired loose comfortable element which also makes things spontaneous and live to give the music a little more breathe and life.

Course, some of you are doing this for a living, so I probably seem like one speaking out of my ass, but its interesting to see your perspective on it.
 
I don't think you are talking out of your ass man. I think I've got a pretty good idea of what your pointing at. There have been some great records that had that very open feel to the guitars. As long as both guitar players are good enough, they can find that niche to bounce off one another, and create a very cool vibe for the music. Edge Of Sanity was one of those bands. The album, "Purgatory Afterglow" has a lot of "opened-up" guitar work that creates a very cool atmosphere for the record.
 
tommy gun.. charvelguy... yes, some bands take the whole metronomic guitar thing to ridiculous extremes... but that's not what we're talking about here. Everyone normally wants a nice natural sounding feel to their guitars... that's a given... unless you are talking about bands for which being robotically tight is a stylistic concern (necrophagist, FF, etc.). The plain fact is that often it's only one guy in a two guitarist band that's tight enough to play on an album project... even with the natural, open feel to the playing you are talking about. it's quite often that the lesser player is downright sloppy and recording him as well leads to a clusterfucked, sloppy sound that no one wants to hear. This is what we are saying. It's not a black & white issue, nor a purely objective one. Each band & producer team must make that call as best suits the particular project being recorded, weighed against the reality of each player's actual ability... rather than some idealistic precept.

when you take this in and accept that this type of decision is a case-by-case judgment call, and not a "rule", and is made purely for the enhancement of the art being created, then it's no longer much of a gap to the realization that playing "point/counter-point" or proselytizing on the "morals" of the practice are as useless as trying to force a pro football coach to give all his 1st and 2nd string players equal field time.
 
James:
Right. I totally agree. It absolutely has to be a judgement call on a case-by-case basis, with every project. As I said earlier, as a guitarist, I've recorded tunes where I played everything, where the other guy played everything, and where we both played. I think it should come down to not even what's best for the whole project, but what's best for each song on an individual basis.
 
The team coach in sports analogy really makes a point home. I understand you can only work with what you have and you'll have to choose the best elements of those for what you wish to achieve. I actually run into this alot when I collab on Rifflink and I'll be jamming with guys in another country I've never played with before, yet, you really have to try to create and write parts and make it gel or transision it in a way that it hopefully works, which is sometimes not always successful but you have to go with it anyways as they'll be in a hurry to post it to Riffworld. Half the time, they only speak broken english or minimal amount to just get by on the basics; hello, goodbye, I am fine, good, no, beer, etc..

Oftentimes I only have a certain amount of control over the final product. Sometimes the mix and how its finialized.. I may have no control over. That is up to the orginator of the idea or OP, ie; the engineer of the project. So there are occasions I'm taken out of the mix or have my parts rearranged or even effected in a way that is totally different from the original prints.
I'm often of the mindset, that I played what I wanted and in a way that I wanted to have come across, I really am not overly fond of when it strays from that via editing or use of effects. 'Course, its not something that is discussed, it just happens and that is what goes with the territory, you either like and lump it or you just don't look to collab with those people again...which pretty much tends to kill the creative and fun aspect of it anyhow. At other times, it really is necessary because not enough parts were written to make it a semi proper tune. Other times, there's just way to much wank going on, ie; overplay, ie; ego. I would be lying if I didn't want some little shelf for my guitar efforts, just sometimes you'll get competing overlap some other guy wants to put his shelf in the same spot, in those circumstances, a producer or engineer POV would actually be very welcomed.
 
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