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Old April 26th, 2007, 06:34 PM   #1276 (permalink)
Bates
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Who wouldn't? Not that I have anything against a straight up fight, but victory comes through tactics.
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Old April 26th, 2007, 08:34 PM   #1277 (permalink)
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Works well in any "Baroness' walk", for example, when the object is to overpower the fair Baroness and entourage when they least expect it (while she's at the vendors' stalls, while she's alone at camp or asleep in her encampment etc) and bring her back to the "castle" and hold her hostage. It also works well when the war is held in the woods, and silentium is a bonus in the beginning stages of any "backstreet brawl" (generally done at night in the dark).
Hey, I've found a course at a different uni that offers military history of the western world from the Antiques and onwards that I can count towards my degree. Think I'd like that, but I can't take it until next spring since it's not offered until then. Not that I need any more schooling, but it looks so damn interesting...
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Old April 26th, 2007, 08:45 PM   #1278 (permalink)
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I need to get myself schoolable sometime. Too much nifty stuff I only get secondhand access too without it.
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Old April 28th, 2007, 04:23 PM   #1279 (permalink)
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I'm a bit puzzled because of the Valknut-symbol and it's interpretation. Here's what I know: It is made out of 3 triangles. They can be seen as a symbol for faith (like the three Norns: present past and future). But they are also a symbol for the three realms of existance ... which would be Midgard (our world), Asgard (the world of the gods) and Uttgard (the "underworld"). And the Valknut is made out of 9 lines ... representing "the nine worlds".
... and here is where I get lost. What are the nine worlds?
Ok, there's Niflheim, Hel and so on, but are they considered as seperate worlds? (And could someone name all nine?)
I always considered the 3 realms as beeing the "worlds", and Niflheim, Hel and so on beeing a part of Utgard ... like Valhall is a part of Asgard ...
(talking about different worlds actually feels strange to me in the first place, since in my mind there's only ONE "world". The 3 realms are just three "dimensions" of that world, and everything else (Niflheim, Hel) are just places (localities) within the realms ...)

I guess if there is someone out there who can get me out of this confusion, this here is where I have to ask ... right, Tyra?
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Old April 28th, 2007, 04:40 PM   #1280 (permalink)
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Muspellheim
Midgard
Vanaheim
Asgard
Nifelheim
Jotunheim
Helheim
Svartalfheim
Alfheim
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Old April 28th, 2007, 06:08 PM   #1281 (permalink)
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Rock on, Krigly. Good to see ya again.
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Old April 28th, 2007, 07:08 PM   #1282 (permalink)
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Gosh, Krigely Bigley, you've been paying attention!

Did you get your answer FSlim? There are a multitude of different ways to interpret what's what in the ON religion. Some of it can be verified because the archaeology fits with the text materials, some is based purely on texts, some is based purely on archaeology, some on theology and/or ethnography and so on. The truth of the matter is, that we just don't know about the valknot. We have interpreted it in one way because it appears on picture stones from a certain era with a certain motif, but it's more of a best guess scenario. We can guess at it having to do with something about the nine sides, because nine was a holy number, and we can guess at the amount of peaks in the knot because of the amount of gods (a subject which is wide open, since the more research, the more we notice that the "main gods" were not the main gods during the whole Iron Age - they seem to have changed and overlapped, except for Freya, who is always up there in numbers), and we can guess at it having ties to Odin because of the motif that comes with it and because of the lore, and so on. We simply cannot verify our theories with textmaterial, and therefore, your interpretation is as good as any other. The knot itself is not commonly used in terms of symbolism. The sword is more common in that case. It could just as well be that the sword was Odin's symbol, as it is that the valknot was, since the sword is more common in both text, picture and grave mateials. The valknot could have been a symbol for Odin's warriors, the berserkers, too, for example. There need not be anything "magical" about the symbolism at all, but in this day an age, we must critique and explain and interpret everything, just the same way we interpret the Mona Lisa. What if it's just a picture of a pretty lady? What if the valknot is just a symbol that was easy to carve, because it has only straight lines in it? Or whatever. The point is, don't over-think this, because we just don't know, and we never will - until we die and go to Valhalla and ask the dudes ourselves, of course.
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Old April 28th, 2007, 07:48 PM   #1283 (permalink)
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And then get in a fight for asking a stupid question! Of course, that would be kinda the point of being there, anyway
But yeah, my thought is along the same lines. These things have the meanings we give them. Those meanings may or may not be the same as our ancestors had for them. But, again, many of the things we do know the meanings of, those meanings often changed throughout the times we have record of, so I'm of the opinion that there's nothing really wrong with giving our own meanings to things. After all, a big part of honoring them is to think for yourself (IMO, of course), and not just copying them without thinking about it. That is, after all, the way most of us have rejected.
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Old April 28th, 2007, 08:55 PM   #1284 (permalink)
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Rock on, Krigly. Good to see ya again.


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Gosh, Krigely Bigley, you've been paying attention!

The valknot could have been a symbol for Odin's warriors, the berserkers, ourselves, of course.
lol, pay attention. I had to look that stuff up because I cant say it properly, and spelling it isnt the easiest.

and about the berserkers, are they only found in the norse countries?
and hell, is the valknot anywhere else or is it just a norse symbol.
damn norse have all the cool stuff.
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Old April 28th, 2007, 10:45 PM   #1285 (permalink)
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I personally have not seen the valknot elsewhere (i mean in other cultures), other than as the Weyerhauser (paper) symbol...
There are other cultures that have berserker-style warriors (I just can't think of which ones they were, but if you gimme time it'll come to me - I think better when I'm supposed to be sleeping, like at 2:30 or so in the morning...). I think the Indians (as in the dudes from India, not our aboriginals) did, and some of the South Pacific cultures did, for sure (just can't think of their names atm). Then it gets down to splitting hairs - some would say that the LURPs from the Vietnam war were kind of berserkerish, or any given ranger for example. You have to be able to connect with your insane side to belong to either one of those outfits, i m o. It depends on how you define the term berserker, I guess.
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Old April 28th, 2007, 11:44 PM   #1286 (permalink)
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damn norse have all the cool stuff.
see, my comment still stands.

are there any cool Baltic symbols.
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Old April 29th, 2007, 12:03 AM   #1287 (permalink)
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Which flavor of Baltic? I know a tiny bit about the Latvian stuff, but most of what I find is in Latvian and the only one I know who can read it is my little brother. And, well, I don't want to bother him to translate for me, he's got too much shit going on. We were supposed to go there this year, but, well, I'll spare the gory details and say "No such luck".
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Old April 29th, 2007, 12:05 AM   #1288 (permalink)
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I'm not good at Baltic...
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Old April 29th, 2007, 12:30 AM   #1289 (permalink)
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Oh, and on the berserks... You can find individual berserks in a lot of cultures, but I don't think it really reached the level of acceptance and respect it had among the Norse, but most of them were "tamed" a lot earlier then the Norse, so the records and refinements they achieved never reached the same level.
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Old April 29th, 2007, 12:52 AM   #1290 (permalink)
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hmmm...
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Old April 29th, 2007, 12:58 AM   #1291 (permalink)
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Well, if my faulted memory serves me well in this instance, Berzerkers (besides being badassed on their own) were also considered a shock troop were they not? If that is true, then there may be many different versions in many cultures (kind of like a variation on a theme).

The only thing I can remember though is the uber hero Cuchulain (Ireland), he was kind of berzerkerish...and his spear was damned awesome.
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Old April 29th, 2007, 12:15 PM   #1292 (permalink)
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Gallic berserkers fighting the romans... naked I remember that they were... something I can't remember...
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Old April 29th, 2007, 12:35 PM   #1293 (permalink)
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Read some Islandic sagas, they give you alot of understanding about the time when vikings roamed the seas!
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Old April 29th, 2007, 01:33 PM   #1294 (permalink)
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i dont doubt it.... hmm... i am thinking on order a few books on Norway history.. well ok ALOT of books i dont like doing things small.... now as soon as i get a paypal account.....
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Old April 29th, 2007, 03:20 PM   #1295 (permalink)
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Then it's Heimskingla you want, if you want Norwegian history. All others are obsolete, then, and it'll save you a bunch of money.

Just a reminder: The berserkers were respected in battle, NOT in society. They had berserker tendencies when they were at home, too, which caused them to be social outcasts. Many times they were not allowed to live within the village because they were so volotile. Egil was a berserker - see what that got him..tremendous respect for his scaldic art, but not accepted into society because nobody wanted to be around him unless they were off their rocker themselves, persecuted from land to land because of acts he'd committed at times when he could not control his berserker rage and so on. He suffered terribly from the loneliness, grief and sorrow this caused him. All of which he expresses with his poetry.
Other than that, I concur with Seraphim - variations on a theme, or like I said, it depends on how you define berserkers. I think later berserkers are still berserkers, just under a different name. Like I said before, you'd pretty much have to be a bit insane but, controlled insane, to be a ranger, SOG, LURP or whatever you want to call them. It's still a variation on the same theme, and to me, those guys are berserkers. I do respect them.
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Old April 29th, 2007, 03:41 PM   #1296 (permalink)
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Then it's Heimskingla you want, if you want Norwegian history. All others are obsolete, then, and it'll save you a bunch of money.

Just a reminder: The berserkers were respected in battle, NOT in society. They had berserker tendencies when they were at home, too, which caused them to be social outcasts. Many times they were not allowed to live within the village because they were so volotile. Egil was a berserker - see what that got him..tremendous respect for his scaldic art, but not accepted into society because nobody wanted to be around him unless they were off their rocker themselves, persecuted from land to land because of acts he'd committed at times when he could not control his berserker rage and so on. He suffered terribly from the loneliness, grief and sorrow this caused him. All of which he expresses with his poetry.
Other than that, I concur with Seraphim - variations on a theme, or like I said, it depends on how you define berserkers. I think later berserkers are still berserkers, just under a different name. Like I said before, you'd pretty much have to be a bit insane but, controlled insane, to be a ranger, SOG, LURP or whatever you want to call them. It's still a variation on the same theme, and to me, those guys are berserkers. I do respect them.
do you have any info on the book Heimskingla Tyra???
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Old April 29th, 2007, 05:31 PM   #1297 (permalink)
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In terms of what? Snorre Sturluson (aka Snorri Sturlasson, Sturlusson and Sturlason) is the author, the full title is "Heimskringla or The Lives of the Norse Kings". The book has a brief introduction of Snorre himself, and then it cover the history of the Norse kings from Ynglingasaga to Magnus Barefoot, Harald Fairhair and Hacon the Good inclusive.
I have ISBN, but mine is an older illustrated copy from Dover publishing (they sell their books at very good prices - I have their Sagas of Icelanders, too), so you might want to look for a newer version? Mine is this one: http://www.amazon.com/Heimskringla-L...7885379&sr=8-2
If you go into amazon.com and type in Heimskringla, you'll get lots of options. It's not a poetry type book, so you'd probably be better off with a newer one than, say, Hollander's translation from 1930, because the prose it's written in will most likely be easier to understand... Mine is not bad at all, though.
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Old April 29th, 2007, 07:19 PM   #1298 (permalink)
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thank you for your help Tyra.. much appreciated
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Old April 29th, 2007, 08:12 PM   #1299 (permalink)
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Quoted from wikipedia: "Kveld-Ulf's son, referred to as Skalla-Grimm, was a berserker. Kveld-Ulf and Skalla-Grimm are both depicted as irascible and violent throughout the saga. One commits suicide and the latter kills his offspring." haha, what an ownage move.. killing your own offspring, way to go!
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Old April 29th, 2007, 08:13 PM   #1300 (permalink)
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Quoted from wikipedia: "Kveld-Ulf's son, referred to as Skalla-Grimm, was a berserker. Kveld-Ulf and Skalla-Grimm are both depicted as irascible and violent throughout the saga. One commits suicide and the latter kills his offspring." haha, what an ownage move.. killing your own offspring, way to go!
LMFAO!!! what the hell did he kill his own offspring for though????
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