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Old November 8th, 2005, 12:39 AM   #76 (permalink)
asmallchild
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Support a woman's right to choose! Oh wait...wrong thread.
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Old November 8th, 2005, 12:36 PM   #77 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyaemia
I doubt thats true based on the readings I did. Then again im not the most well informed here...

What do any of you think about some saying that Ragnarok in the Edda was possibly modified by christian beliefs(from Snorri)? In the end, the "demon" from the south, Surtur, comes to war with a legion to destroy everything (to make it short). Is it a coincidence that as far as history goes the religion of christianity came from the south and almost annihilated whats known as Asatru today? Muspelheim could easily be compared to a desert since its the land of fire... Surtur and is legion to Christianity. At least figuratively... Maybe its just me... But both story are really similar...

What do you think about that?
I think it's an interesting point. I kinda always assumed that these southern people coming to destroy everything were based on black people that northern people had seen. The northeners weren't all that informed about this part of the world and I assumed they would just have been very surprised, even shocked, to see black people. And because man has a tendency to fear the unknown, stories of these black people might have transformed over time and in the end become the basis for these villains.

But that's not really based on anything, I just assumed this. Your point makes a lot of sense.

The reason I said that it didn't seem biased is simply because I didn't see it when I read the book myself. But that was a while ago and I've only read it once.
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Old November 9th, 2005, 11:37 AM   #78 (permalink)
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Read it again. It's good reading anyhow! Then read Heimskringla and compare to see how much Snorre changed his tune between the two texts. Snorri changed quite a few things because he could not put them in a christian religious context, and they didn't make sense to his contemporaries.
As far as Ragnarök, I suspect that it's what comes after - Gimli - that may have been changed to take on a "kinder" look to be able to compete with a Christian faith, or maybe as a blend of the two religions coming together. Earlier stories do not conform to this part of the myth.
Having said this, we really quite litterally do not have any written evidence as to what the stories were directly from the Norsemen of the time themselves. This is why we have to rely on Snorri, Ibn Fahadlan, Ibn Rusta, Adam of Bremen, Tacitus and so on. These are either not contemporaries, or are, like in the case of Tacitus, third hand accounts of what was said and done. More often than not, also, written by someone of another religion to make their own look better, too.
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Old November 9th, 2005, 12:40 PM   #79 (permalink)
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Yeah, I'll read it again someday. It's a fun read but also a very hard read (I'm talking about reading it in the old Norse, I don't know if you are).
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Old November 13th, 2005, 04:18 PM   #80 (permalink)
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I wish! The closest I can manage is old Swedish, which, none the less, is preferable to trying to figure out which one of the zillion English translations I need to choose. They are all so very, very different - talk about things getting lost in translation! You are very lucky to be able to read the original. I use the Swedish versions for a guideline as to what Snorre really meant to say when I read the English versions. I use the texts for research for my university studies quite a bit, which is why I am so damned familiar with them - we had to disect Snorri, Tacitus, Master Adam and so on to learn how to critizice our archaeological sources and not take them verbatim. That's why I am of the opinion that they are all somewhat (or very) skewed in a Christian fashion (not necessarily on purpose, though, sometimes because so many years had passed between the old religion and the new that the author didn't know how to interpret events in an Old Norse way - one did research differently in the time of Snorri. This is in no way criticism against Snorri. He did us all a huge service in writing what he did, thus preserving many of these stories for the future. It's up to us to try to walk in Snorri's shoes when we read the texts, and not just interpret the texts from the Norse/viking point of view, but also from Snorri's point of view).
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Old November 14th, 2005, 11:47 AM   #81 (permalink)
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I'd just like to add that yes, it's no surprise the texts are a bit skewed, one of the reasons being that Snorra-Edda is written about 200-300 years after Ásatrú had been replaced by Christianity as the main religion. This of course forced Snorri to fill in gaps and the like, because the stories weren't properly documented, that's exactly what he was trying to change.
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Old November 15th, 2005, 06:55 AM   #82 (permalink)
Pyaemia
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... That's why I am of the opinion that they are all somewhat (or very) skewed in a Christian fashion (not necessarily on purpose, though, sometimes because so many years had passed between the old religion and the new that the author didn't know how to interpret events in an Old Norse way - one did research differently in the time of Snorri. This is in no way criticism against Snorri...
If these are the only text, how can the faith be accuratly revived considering it has been deformed by christianity? I went on Alftaeith website(Is that how you spell it?) and in one part of the forum they talked about the Blot. All had different opinions and ways of performing it. So has a "newb" what am I suppose to do? Invent my own base on some vague guidelines? I have to assume that if 10 people are doing it 10 differents then some must be a little out of context compare to the old ways?

Sorry I may be a little out of context here with the blot but I was just wondering.
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Old November 15th, 2005, 11:31 AM   #83 (permalink)
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jeep it simple. slaughter animals halal style and throw blood on pictures of gods. howver when it comes to the Frey cult it gets more complex. That one's prett much lost to us humans, thank you tolerant christians!
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Old November 15th, 2005, 01:30 PM   #84 (permalink)
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Wish it wasn't, I'm named after Freyr. It would be nice to know how to worship him if I were into that sort of thing. Which I'm not, I just find this interesting.
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Old November 15th, 2005, 01:40 PM   #85 (permalink)
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Yeah, that thing about the blót is difficult to explain once one leaves the "old homelands". First of all, just because a new religion comes along, it does not mean that the other one disappears. Sometimes, it does, sometimes the both exist alongside eachother, and sometimes the two mingle. In this case, people have bloted well into recent history in the way it was done in the past, and those blots are documented in writing by contemporaries. You would not realize how many of the "old ways" never stopped unless you actually lived in a Nordic country for some time (and even then, sometimes not!).
Second, Snorri and a few other autors do give good written evidence of how this was done, and there is not a great disparity between how, say, Tacitus (don't quote me on that, cuz I can't find the passage right now) and Snorri, even though they are hundreds of years apart. That's a good indication of the written documents actually being reasonably accurate, and then one has to use ones sense of logic in removing the things that are obviously scewed to make "them barbarians" godless and un-christian.
Third, there is no dogma in Asatrù. It's about your relationship with whatever god you choose to speak to on that day, and what you wish to speak about. I.e., is your way of speaking to your mother or your teacher or boss the same as your friends way of speaking to his? Do you tell someone to fuck off in the same fashion you ask them for a cookie? What I am trying to say is, that there isn't a "right" way to do these things. What is right is what feels right for you. Historical precedence, yes, but not a correct way, so don't ever let anyone tell you that. The group with which you worship, if you even choose to worship with one, should feel like a comfortable fit for you. Asatrù worship in the old days was done at home, except for big blots like the one in Uppsala, which was a rarity, and it was held as part of an Althing. It's a lifestyle. Make sense?

I totally agree with the last post you wrote, Nodferatu. No argument from me there - that's exactly what I meant when I said that Snorri didn't necessarily skew the texts on purpose. Master Adam, on the other hand, is a whole another story...His aim in some parts was to make the Norse heathens look bad and stupid.
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Old January 9th, 2006, 09:57 AM   #86 (permalink)
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What makes me wonder about new worshippers of the Norse gods is that many appear to be into this just because it's an 'in' thing to do. I see many people (on Myspace especially) who "praise Odin" this, or Valhalla that, but still only call it Thor's hammer as opposed to the proper Mjöllnir. I know that Odin is supposed to be approached with as much fear as reverence if addressing him, and I think a lot of newbs aren't catching on to that either.
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Old January 9th, 2006, 11:12 AM   #87 (permalink)
TheLastWithPaganBlood
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ANd what's the deal with not sacrificing living animals/humans? SOme organisations have like normal food or something, like they pick up a happy meal in the drive-through on the way to the blot?
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Old January 9th, 2006, 11:35 AM   #88 (permalink)
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With the sacrificing of humans, I'm aware that many human sacrifices were prisoners of war, and as it would apply to today's world, not too many families keep their own prisoners of war so that would complicate things to say the least.
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Old January 9th, 2006, 12:47 PM   #89 (permalink)
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Yeah, we don't have too many slaves to string up in trees in my family... Animal sacrifices still happen. Do NOT take that out of context, because even back in the day, when animals were sacrificed, none of it was wasted. You still eat the flesh and use the pelt etc (unless they were human - for that you have to go even farther back in Scandinavian history). That's why food-offerings are done today. It's not legal in most places to do an animal sacrifice, and even when it is, a lot of people object on humanitarian grounds. If you think of the animals being sacrificed as food, though, one food is just as good as any other. That's why instead of sheep etc, we generally offer up the best alcohol we can muster today. For myself, that's generally homebrewed mead.

I totally hear you about Asatro being the in thing. The people who do that, generally fall away after a while, though, as they never shut up for long enough to hear the voices of the gods and the goddesses. Really, 99% of the people I know who are true believers, were called by the gods, as a difference to the individual calling the gods to them. I don't worry too much about those people who come for the fashion myself, as I know they generally either don't come to blot, or they come once and never again. It does bother me if they give my faith a bad name or do stupid things in the name of my religion, as that in itself flies in the face of the faith.
The ON used to have a system for selecting Gothar, that I think can apply to asatruar in general, too. If you wanted to be a gothi, you should stand up in a crowd of peers and proclaim "I am a Gothi". If no-one laughed, you could call yourself a Gothi. I think that those who claim to be asatru should do the same thing. Stand up in a group of peers and say "I am asatru". If no-one laughs, you know you are truly asatru./T.
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Old January 9th, 2006, 01:59 PM   #90 (permalink)
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Ehh, kind of hard if your friends are not all asatruar, as with a normal crowd people would most certainly laugh. But who are they to judge.
Anyway I wasn't to serious with my post there, but am I getting this right? If you sacrifice in the modern day you would for example bring some Biff Tartar and a nice Bordeaux - what exactly do you do with it then?
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Old January 9th, 2006, 02:18 PM   #91 (permalink)
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The only people I could proclaim that in front of, that would know what I was talking about, are my seeress friend, her husband, and their friends. I'm pretty sure their response would be "fucking duh" as they've seen me in past lives as a Viking leader. I was first called by the Gods in this lifetime, to the best I can tell, by receiving an old, rusted Viking sword by my spritual advisor.
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Old January 9th, 2006, 02:39 PM   #92 (permalink)
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Fuck all christians, muslims, jews etc.. shortly FUCK ALL THE RELIGIONS..!!

compelling arguement you've got their.
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Old January 15th, 2006, 05:44 AM   #93 (permalink)
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vilka Killar ni är!!!!

HEHE,
Sleipner or whatever your name is, dont u thnk u souond a little silly? Calling yourself a heathen? Of course amons music is great but come on... Your from New Jersey, have u ever been to sweden, denmark or Norway, i mean on what grouonds are you a heathen.

Hallå finns några skandinaver där ute eller? e d bara massa jänkare och sånt?
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Old January 15th, 2006, 05:51 AM   #94 (permalink)
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That goes for Tyra too?, The viking religion didnt last for long, i mean here in Sweden today and all the other scandinavian countries there are churches everywhere, i f people could here the voices of gods, do u really think they would change religion. It aint like the christian forced the north to believe in christianity, instead people just changed because it was sort of a fashion.
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Old January 15th, 2006, 07:27 AM   #95 (permalink)
TheLastWithPaganBlood
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Here's one theory: http://www.burzum.org/eng/library/paganism07.shtml
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Old January 15th, 2006, 07:59 AM   #96 (permalink)
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There were many things that were possibly forgotten over time after the Christian conversion, maybe even minor dieties. The sagas were written by Christians, yes but keep in mind that Christianity was in its infant stages in Scandinavian lands and many people still believed in the old beliefs albeit usually in private. Snorri was very possibly one of these people and came into some conflict with many people for writing down the sagas. This is probably one of the reasons why he made so many enemies within his lifetime and eventually was killed by them. Also keep in mind that oral relation of these stories rather than documentation was being used before they were written and passed on from generation to generation by word of mouth. This goes also for the Edda, Havamal, Voluspa etc. Our (Asatruar, Vanatruar, Odinists etc.) beliefs aren't perfectly consistent with our pre-Christian forefathers but I believe they are much more substantial then most would think. Also consider that Pagans have always existed within every single century and they have never say "died out". - Just my two cents for what it's worth.
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Old January 15th, 2006, 06:48 PM   #97 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Olof87
That goes for Tyra too?, The viking religion didnt last for long, i mean here in Sweden today and all the other scandinavian countries there are churches everywhere, i f people could here the voices of gods, do u really think they would change religion. It aint like the christian forced the north to believe in christianity, instead people just changed because it was sort of a fashion.
On the contrary, people like King Olaf did force many people to convert to Christianity, and he was quite ruthless in doing so. Many people converted out of fear of punishment by death alone.
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Old January 15th, 2006, 09:04 PM   #98 (permalink)
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Same with Charlemagne with the Saxons.
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Old January 15th, 2006, 11:38 PM   #99 (permalink)
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HEHE,
Sleipner or whatever your name is, dont u thnk u souond a little silly? Calling yourself a heathen? Of course amons music is great but come on... Your from New Jersey, have u ever been to sweden, denmark or Norway, i mean on what grouonds are you a heathen.

Hallå finns några skandinaver där ute eller? e d bara massa jänkare och sånt?
Since when does where you live decide your religion? Not trying to start a flame war, I'm just saying. I live in Hawaii, and I'm a heathen, and I don't feel silly at all when I call myself one.
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Old January 16th, 2006, 07:30 AM   #100 (permalink)
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Since when does where you live decide your religion? Not trying to start a flame war, I'm just saying. I live in Hawaii, and I'm a heathen, and I don't feel silly at all when I call myself one.
It doesn't, that's bullshit. That's like saying you can't be a Christian because you didn't come from the middle east. Asatru itself is a worldwide belief system and doesn't discriminate against what country a person was born in. We have kindreds all over the states as well as in Canada, Australia, England and the list goes on and on.
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