Let's talk about overheads.

[Matt Smith]

Lately I’ve been kinda struggling with overheads in the mix. I mean I get pretty good results, but I want to take it to the next level. How the heck do guys like Bob Rock, Colin, Andy, etc. get their cymbals so bright and shimmery and smooth without being harsh? I mean, when you listen to the cymbals on the black album, there’s such a long, smooth sustain…probably compression and probably partially all those room mics. I don’t know, whenever I’ve tried to compress overheads, it just brings the hats out even more, which is not what I’m going for, so I usually take it off. And EQ-wise, do you guys have any general starting points you usually gravitate toward (besides filtering)? Sometimes if there’s an annoying, harsh overtone in a cymbal, I’ll notch it out, but then things feel too dull. I don’t know, I just wanted to strike up a conversation about this and see if anyone has any general suggestions or tips that you’ve found work for you on a fairly regular basis.

[Glenn Fricker]

My first question would be:

What's your room like?


Other factors: How hard is the drummer hitting the hats? How "open" are they? How's the drummer's cymbal technique? (this is a huge factor, as cymbal sounds can vary greatly from drummer to drummer)

Generally though, I'll rolloff at 600hz, and that's it for EQ. Then again, I have a very bright drum room. A little bit of compression afterwords, usually an opto, and that's about it.

-0z-

[Matt Crooks]

I've had good results with slight compression (1:2 - 1:4) taking a 3-4db off. I filter out the low stuff and then add in some shelf (1-2 db) somewhere between 10-15k.

The big thing, I think, is that the room has to have that sound.

[Brett - K A L I S I A]

Try to keep the hats hidden from the oh microphones when you track the drums, I think that's a good starting point (when possible). Also try to get the drummer not to hit the hats to hard (send it back loud in the drummers headphones so he calms down on it maybe).

[chadsxe]

I would say just about every thing Oz had to say. Nine out 10 times the drummer is hitting the cymbals to damn hard.

[everybody's x]

I am FAR from an expert on the subject, but I am a cymbal nazi. When guys bring in their ZCustom/Paiste/super heavy super loud super heavy METAL cymbals I make them leave them in the bag.
I have a nice QUIET set of 1960's Zildjian A's that balance themselves nicely in the room. I tell the drummer to "hit every drum as hard as you can all the time and hit the cymbals like you're petting a kittie" This takes some adjustment but almost always pays off with a better balanced drummer making a better recording. I have a dish towel with a hole in the middle that goes right over the hats and have them play right through them (Try It! it works). Open hats are as close together as they can possibly be to avoid that horrible open hat wash over everything. Whenever possible I discourage playing open hat parts AT ALL. It's amazing how well that can fuck up a mix. (everything in moderation makes heavy thing heavier when they HAVE to be)

If you are dealing with low ceilings try a different approach altogether. 2 sdc's 8 feet apart 4 feet in front of the kit at crotch level. PZM's on the floor in front and behind the kit, etc. Hell try it in a big room (I do)

I dont like compressing the OH at all but that's probably just me. I wish the Hi HAT was never invented, I hate the fucking things :P

[Glenn Fricker]

Originally Posted by everybody's x

I tell the drummer to "hit every drum as hard as you can all the time and hit the cymbals like you're petting a kittie" This takes some adjustment but almost always pays off with a better balanced drummer making a better recording. I have a dish towel with a hole in the middle that goes right over the hats and have them play right through them (Try It! it works). Open hats are as close together as they can possibly be to avoid that horrible open hat wash over everything. Whenever possible I discourage playing open hat parts AT ALL. It's amazing how well that can fuck up a mix.I wish the Hi HAT was never invented, I hate the fucking things :P

Absolutely 100% goddamn fucking right on the money.

I hate hats too. With a vengance. I don't know how many times when setting up, the first thing a drummer will do is reach over for the hat clutch to open it up.
"What the fuck do you think you're doing?" I'll ask.
"Opening up the hats." The dumbfuck (errr drummer, I mean) replies.
"Is this a disco record?" I'll inquire.
"No. It's a metal record." The drummer blurts.
"Then keep the hats closed." I'll order.

What's really funny is when the drummer comes in to listen to playback, he can't belive how pleasant the hats sound. I've had a number of them say, "wow, I've gotta try that live!"

[everybody's x]

Originally Posted by OzNimbus

"What the fuck do you think you're doing?" I'll ask.
"Opening up the hats." The dumbfuck (errr drummer, I mean) replies.
"Is this a disco record?" I'll inquire.
"No. It's a metal record." The drummer blurts.
"Then keep the hats closed." I'll order.

I am SO saying that tonight.

Thanks for the quip

The whole open hat thing is EXACTLY the same as when you turn home boys gain way down on the amp and all the sudden he's got tone. "I have to try that live" Goddamn, you SHOULD (read:NO SHIT)

[Brett - K A L I S I A]

I don't like completely closed hi-hats, no power in that, and drums feel so empty... To each his own eh...

[everybody's x]

I don't make them close them all the way just the smallest amount open they can be.

[Matt Crooks]

How many people that hate the hi-hat are guitarists?


Anyway - I like the open hi-hat when the drummer knows what the hell he is doing. Bashing on it constantly sucks, but there is room for cool stick work on the hats in metal.

[Keiffer]

my take...

adjust mics for balance (I use the Over the Snare / Over the Shoulder placement)

use the right cymbals (thin that get out of the way)

don't hit the cymbals hard

hit the drums very hard

Low Shelve Cut at 500HZ and Hi Shelve Boost at 9K (adjust for softness)

[everybody's x]

Originally Posted by Keiffer

my take...

(I use the Over the Snare / Over the Shoulder placement)

I do this too 99% of the time, although for some reason, I've read Andy saying it's a no no for metal?

[Keiffer]

hum, I'd like to read more on that because I definitely like the results I get. but I'm also generally not tracking a 9 piece kit.

[KeithRT99]

i like the over the shoulder method, it really brings the snare out nicely. I think that may be a bad idea though if you're gonna replace the snare, because there will be alot of it in your overheads.

also, what kind of probrems are you guys having with hi hats? i've never had issue recording them, and i'm curious what it is that's bothering you.

[Genius Gone Insane]

My best drum sounds have come from guys who have good hats...not to disagree with anyone, but that's just my experience. *I am a part-timer tho

[Keiffer]

Originally Posted by Genius Gone Insane

My best drum sounds have come from guys who have good hats...not to disagree with anyone, but that's just my experience. *I am a part-timer tho

that's basically one of my criteria "Use the right cymbals", but it doesn't stop with the hats, although they're oh so important.

[Loren Littlejohn]

Yeah can't beat a good pair of K custom session hats. They record so good.

Leave the rock shit at home.

[Keiffer]

I like the K Custom Cymbals. Also, I have a pair of A Custom Hats that record very well. they're bright but not loud.

[AStacy2]

Love my ZCustoms, they record great for me and any drummer who has ever used them. Never had any luck with the KCustoms though and I hate how they sound. I want my cymbals to be bright sounding not dull.


As far as mixing, I cut off around 60, boost 100, 2.5k and 8k, compress about 2:1 works for me.


There was another thread about this and people talked about cutting 2.5k to get rid of the harshness.

[Pman]

Originally Posted by HexTheNet

Love my ZCustoms, they record great for me and any drummer who has ever used them. Never had any luck with the KCustoms though and I hate how they sound. I want my cymbals to be bright sounding not dull.


As far as mixing, I cut off around 60, boost 100, 2.5k and 8k, compress about 2:1 works for me.


There was another thread about this and people talked about cutting 2.5k to get rid of the harshness.

i have a customs but theyre not so good for recording
i intend to get some thinner cymbals sooner or later, as i use my z customs for gigging as they dont break so easily.
ive had thinner in the past but they have broken incredibly easily

[elmuchoescadawg]

How many people on here who are engineers and not drummers own their own set of cymbols?
Ive worked with bands who have turned up with a 20 year old kit thats not in good condition and have had old and broken cymbols and asked if they can be made to sound like Machinehead

[greyskull]

just qa quick query, when you guys filter the ohs, how steep do you go?
I've been trying less and less steep recent;y and found it give the oh's more life.

But then again, this was on a recording for my band, and i made damn sure he didnt hammer the hats.

In dire circumstances, you can cymbal drop.
i.e sample replace the cymbals and mix in with the oh

[brandy]

Why no one mentioned PHASE CANCELATION?

When placing Overheads it is so important to have them in phase with hihat/ride AND snare/toms.

Cutting everything below 600hz usualy avoids phase cancelation in the "body" frequencys of snare/kick/toms - but if you only have to roll of below 200hz or so you might end up with a mich fatter overal sound.

I hate those "thin" sounding *modern* overhead-sound. I want a little Body in the attack of the cymbals. I talk about *buushh* and not only *sfiiiishhh*

Other things are mentioned before:

The room is very important - listen to the OHs in solo mode - when they sound "realistic" and "right" to you then everything will work. You just have to do a good mix.

You can use compression to dampen the snare in the OHs, but you can use compression to increase the attack as well. You can manipulate the sustain of the cymbals in some ways.

It is allways more easy with "slow rock" than whith grindcore and stuff like that.

The most important factor is indeed the ballance of the drummer. I will not have big problems with a experienced studio-drummer.

But 9 out of 10 times you have to deal with "the others! LOL

Of course it is important what hat/cymbals you choose - but they have to be played right - so it is not so important for me wich brand/model/light or heavy we use but it is important how the drummer hits them.

Cheap cymbals usually sound thin and cheap on the record...


brandy

[Aaron Smith]

My drummer has some pretty thick Z-customs that I wouldn't at all call "soft sounding" cymbals, but he knows how to finesse them just right, so I've never had any issues at all with the OHs not sitting properly. Compression definitely helps to achieve that big thick rock OH sound though, I much prefer it.