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Old November 6th, 2008, 07:55 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Damn I feel old, I remember the ads for Beneath and Arise in Kerrang and Metal Maniacs.

At the time you really couldnt get a better sound than Scott Burns, you have to remember at the time thrash was still king and most producers didnt have the slightest idea what to do with these bands in the more extreme genre, the notable exceptions were Scott Burns (bands mentioned above) and Colin Richardson (Carcass)
In a lot of cases, they still hadn't figured out thrash yet. A lot of extreme metal bands were chasing that scooped Metallica tone--that combined with downtuning and a number of other factors made it a bit tougher. It's way cheaper and easier now that we can pretty much slap a relatively cheap 5150 and some Celestions together and get a distortion tone that is aggressive but still maintains clarity.
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Old November 6th, 2008, 08:16 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Man, I love Scott Burns records. The "dated" sound of some of them reconnects me with that era and that is just priceless.
I also thought they sounded incredible back then.
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Old November 6th, 2008, 08:37 PM   #28 (permalink)
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I agree. That's the way I feel about a lot of recordings that might sound "dated" or "flawed" by today's standards. I love Mercyful Fate's Melissa and Oath, but they're far from being a producer's dream by modern standards.

James brings up a great point too. It's so much cheaper and easier to make a decent-sounding recording today than it ever has been in the past, it's just ridiculous.
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Old November 6th, 2008, 09:21 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Man, I love Scott Burns records. The "dated" sound of some of them reconnects me with that era and that is just priceless.
I also thought they sounded incredible back then.

I agree--it brings me back to when I first listened to them for the first time and was awestruck by the production--how the kick was clearer than the last, etc. I wouldnt want them messed with at all. Albums that stand out in my mind as blowing me away back then on day of release--Anthrax-Persistance, Fear Factory-Soul, Carcass-Heartwork,and Entombed-Wolverine Blues
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Old November 6th, 2008, 09:38 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Man, I love Scott Burns records. The "dated" sound of some of them reconnects me with that era and that is just priceless.
I also thought they sounded incredible back then.
they still sound incredible

just a couple days ago i was working out with my ipod...of course it's loaded with a bunch of metal at shit. near the end of my workout, some tracks played from BTR and arise, and it absolutely slayed all of the newer shit i had on there

today, for the hell of it, i listened to a couple of cavalera conspiracy tracks, and the generic quad-tracked 5150s into V30 tone combined with the quantization and samples on igor's drumming made it damned near unlistenable
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Old November 7th, 2008, 01:10 AM   #31 (permalink)
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James brings up a great point too. It's so much cheaper and easier to make a decent-sounding recording today than it ever has been in the past, it's just ridiculous.
did i make that point? i'm sure i didn't.... but it can be, it's just not guaranteed. technology doesn't produce/mix albums, people do... and concerning gear, there's still a certain quality level that requires a not insignificant buy-in to truly acheive spectacular audio. the real difference is the amount of time, when you choose the right person and the right gear in the right place, that you can spend making an album. that's the key difference.

sure, you can make "an album" in your basement with a cracked version of cakewalk and a m-audio interface for dirt cheap, and it may be musically amazing... which will mitigate a shitload of audio defiiciencies... but your just not going to get the kind of sonics that you hear on the best of the best of today's top metal productions done in quality acoustic spaces with top notch gear and produced by the top producers and mixed by the top mixers. that's still going to require a budget..... and for the top bands, and bands aspiring to the top, this is the only way to go in my opinion... and the credits on the top charting albums bear this out (the new metallica excepted ).

so i did intend to make a point, but it wasn't that making albums is super cheap now... but certainly more varying levels of quality and entry points are available now than ever before.

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Old November 7th, 2008, 08:55 AM   #32 (permalink)
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did i make that point? i'm sure i didn't.... but it can be, it's just not guaranteed. technology doesn't produce/mix albums, people do... and concerning gear, there's still a certain quality level that requires a not insignificant buy-in to truly acheive spectacular audio. the real difference is the amount of time, when you choose the right person and the right gear in the right place, that you can spend making an album. that's the key difference.
I guess what I was driving at was that the gap in recording quality between the big labels and smaller labels seems a whole lot smaller than back then.
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Old November 7th, 2008, 09:13 AM   #33 (permalink)
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...

back then, I used to seek out scott burns stuff - knowing you'd be able to hear the bass drum. interesting insider info from james. I personally never thought about the restrictions/budgets on stuff back then. I think there was a perception of the youth that if you were signed, you'd be a millionaire with a limitless budged. At least that's what I thought.

Even with a limited budget though - I don't like the idea of using the same exact snare sound for several different bands. I'd rather hear a crappier snare mic'ed of that particular band. The sampled one just ended up sounding too fake on exhorder (and devastation, if indeed it was used on idolatary).
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Old November 7th, 2008, 09:21 AM   #34 (permalink)
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I guess what I was driving at was that the gap in recording quality between the big labels and smaller labels seems a whole lot smaller than back then.
yes, dead on. on average this is true... the gap is smaller.

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Old November 7th, 2008, 10:04 AM   #35 (permalink)
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Anybody watch the new Cannibal Corpse DVD yet?

Theres alot of Content with Scott Burns in it.
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Old November 7th, 2008, 10:55 AM   #36 (permalink)
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looking forward to see that dvd, seems like it contents a lot of history of the early days ?
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Old November 7th, 2008, 12:03 PM   #37 (permalink)
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Anybody watch the new Cannibal Corpse DVD yet?

Theres alot of Content with Scott Burns in it.
I'm gonna have to put that on the radar!
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Old November 7th, 2008, 12:59 PM   #38 (permalink)
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Thanks to this thread for reminding me to re-buy Dreams of the Carrion Kind on CD, what a great album! I had it on cassette when it first came out...fuck I'm old too. I still enjoy all those old albums, production or not, great music!!!
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Old November 7th, 2008, 01:25 PM   #39 (permalink)
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Scott definitely left his mark. I certainly respect the work he put into early death metal, it must have been really frustrating to be that talented and be pigeon holed the way he was. It was most of the reason for his leaving the business from what i hear. He was just exhausted and frustrated.

I've spent quite a bit of time down at morrisound as well, and its just fascinating to sit and pick jim and tom morris' brains about the sessions back then. Some of the stories are just fucking hilarious and some just shocking. They sure did a fuck load of work back in those days.

That being said, two of my favorite Scott Burns Productions:

Malevolent Creation "Retribution" One of his best death metal mixes and in my opinion one of the top 5 Death Metal Releases of All time. Just fucking great record, unbelievably extreme and badass for the time and still to this day.

Atheist "Unquestionable Presence" Fuck man, what a bunch of freaks! The songs a bit hard to digest but its so amazing and over the top. Sounds great too.

Although i hate the mix, i will say i think Death Human is the best record he ever produced and Deaths best material. Just imagine if it sounded as good as symbolic. There would almost be no reason to go on! Heh

OH! and how could i forget. Suffocations "pierced from within" They basically wrote every great death metal riff ever on that record. So evil, so badass. Just love it. Still to this day love that record. Sounds alright too, but that was much later in the game, 1995.
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Old November 7th, 2008, 09:51 PM   #40 (permalink)
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James...if you don't mind me asking what was the budget/cost to work with Scott back in the day?

On a side note, I loved and still love Scott Burns produced albums. I remember getting Sepultura's BTR on vinyl when it came out and I was in love with the guitars and overall production and I still love it. Old Obituary and Death....those are classic in terms of Death Metal and production.

In 1988, 89 and 90 I thought Scott Burns and Morrisound Studios were Gods! I was 18 years old in 1988 and to hear Scott Burns name meant Death Metal!!! I think there is a picture of him on the inside of the Terrorizer CD/Tape/LP.

In my opinion Scott Burns is a pioner in Death Metal history!
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Old November 8th, 2008, 12:18 AM   #41 (permalink)
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James...if you don't mind me asking what was the budget/cost to work with Scott back in the day?

On a side note, I loved and still love Scott Burns produced albums. I remember getting Sepultura's BTR on vinyl when it came out and I was in love with the guitars and overall production and I still love it. Old Obituary and Death....those are classic in terms of Death Metal and production.

In 1988, 89 and 90 I thought Scott Burns and Morrisound Studios were Gods! I was 18 years old in 1988 and to hear Scott Burns name meant Death Metal!!! I think there is a picture of him on the inside of the Terrorizer CD/Tape/LP.

In my opinion Scott Burns is a pioner in Death Metal history!
I totally agree. And, at the time, those albums sounded terrifyingly heavy. Even today, I just turn them up a bit louder than the current albums that I listen to--still heavy. In my mind, it's like Sabbath Vol 4. That album isn't the most well-produced album in history, but 36 years later it's still damned heavy. I love metal from all eras, and I have to give kudos to the guys who really seemed to capture the zeitgeist of it all.
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Old November 8th, 2008, 12:45 AM   #42 (permalink)
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James...if you don't mind me asking what was the budget/cost to work with Scott back in the day?
I was speaking more in general terms, there was no "one fee".... just lower budgets in general than would have allowed for less break-neck schedules, at least for a lot of albums I was aware of. There are obviously notable exceptions that likely had higher budgets. I wasn't privy to the details of every album he ever did, clearly.... so I'm basically drawing from the albums i was in the loop on... and informed by those, the rest is just observation. I make no claims to knowing every detail of SB's career, I hope that's clear.

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Old November 8th, 2008, 01:09 AM   #43 (permalink)
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i was speaking more in general terms, there was no "one" price.... just lower budgets in general than would have allowed for less break-neck schedules, at least for a lot of albums. there are obviously notable exceptions that had higher budgets.

Shouldn't the blame for this be shared by Tom Morris as well? By not negotiating and accepting almost every deal that came through Earache and Roadrunner both knew that if they offered such and such dollar amount then the quality (for the time) would be good and would sell to their expectations--I read some where Monte's formula was like 25-50k for 1st album, 100k for the second, etc

I agree that Scott was a pioneer in the early days of the genre, he could do what others wrap their heads around, and make the bands sound they way they wanted when in most cases they didnt know how to achieve that sound themselves--often pushing themselves beyond what they thought they could do--a great story about this scenario is when he recorded Napalm, he pushed them so hard that they almost walked out of the session

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Old November 8th, 2008, 01:23 AM   #44 (permalink)
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Shouldn't the blame for this be shared by Tom Morris as well? By not negotiating and accepting almost every deal that came through Earache and Roadrunner both knew that if they offered such and such dollar amount then the quality (for the time) would be good and would sell to their expectations--I read some where Monte's formula was like 25-50k for 1st album, 100k for the second, etc
Ok, now we're getting into territory i don't feel comfortable (or knowledgeable) commenting on specifically. In general terms... speaking of when Scott was producing... I've already said that Morrisound, as any other studio, had/has set fees for studio time. The owners of the studio employed Scott as an engineer prior to his production career taking off, but I don't think they managed that career. Again, I don't claim to have been privy to the inner workings of Morrisound, but in general a producer's fee is negotiated by the producer himself or by his manager if he has one... the studio charges what the studio charges. So, I'm not sure your comments have any relevance at all. And I certainly don't think there's any "blame" to be assigned.

Look, SB did great work, especially for the time, and was one of the "holy trinity" of producer/mixers in that era.... the other two being CR and AW. I'm quite sure that had he stayed in the business his work would have progressed just as the other two's did.

Many of his mixes still sound good today, even against modern good productions.... just turn them up if the volume seems low in comparison.

'nuff said.

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Old November 8th, 2008, 02:10 AM   #45 (permalink)
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Ok, now we're getting into territory i don't feel comfortable (or knowledgeable) commenting on specifically. In general terms... speaking of when Scott was producing... I've already said that Morrisound, as any other studio, had/has set fees for studio time. The owners of the studio employed Scott as an engineer prior to his production career taking off, but I don't think they managed that career. Again, I don't claim to have been privy to the inner workings of Morrisound, but in general a producer's fee is negotiated by the producer himself or by his manager if he has one... the studio charges what the studio charges. So, I'm not sure your comments have any relevance at all. And I certainly don't think there's any "blame" to be assigned.

Look, SB did great work, especially for the time, and was one of the "holy trinity" of producer/mixers in that era.... the other two being CR and AW. I'm quite sure that had he stayed in the business his work would have progressed just as the other two's did.

Many of his mixes still sound good today, even against modern good productions.... just turn them up if the volume seems low in comparison.

'nuff said.
I agree with SB doing fantastic work. All I meant was that Scott in some cases felt he could have done better work with more time invested but that it was never really an option since Morrisound was know for quality work in a very short time frame and on, in many cases, a shoe string budget--I meant blame for that reputation, not the quality. But also because Morrisound had that rep they, (or I should say SB) was the goto for Roadrunner and Earache in many cases
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Old November 8th, 2008, 02:50 AM   #46 (permalink)
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All I meant was that Scott in some cases felt he...
Well perhaps you have more insight than me.... i certainly don't claim to have ever known exactly what Scott felt about the situation you're speaking about, and i was mostly engaging in a more-or-less informed speculation, based on old memories of my times recording there and the knowledge of recent years regarding how i handle my own business affairs. i'm gonna excuse myself on this thread at this point as i've said pretty much all i can recall with impartiality intact.

Anyway, we certainly have a large body of work from SB to look back on, and his legacy is secure.

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Old November 8th, 2008, 04:45 AM   #47 (permalink)
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"and Colin Richardson (Carcass)"

In all honesty, as much as I know most of you guys love Scott's production, you can't really even mention his production in the same sentence as Colin's work on Heartwork.

Or maybe I'm just an opinionated bastard haha.
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Old November 8th, 2008, 10:05 AM   #48 (permalink)
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"and Colin Richardson (Carcass)"

In all honesty, as much as I know most of you guys love Scott's production, you can't really even mention his production in the same sentence as Colin's work on Heartwork.

Or maybe I'm just an opinionated bastard haha.
100% agreed - you old farts can have your nostalgia about crappy production being a sign of the times, but all I can say is I'm glad I was like 6 when all this stuff came out!
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Old November 8th, 2008, 11:50 AM   #49 (permalink)
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100% agreed - you old farts can have your nostalgia about crappy production being a sign of the times, but all I can say is I'm glad I was like 6 when all this stuff came out!
don't worry, there'll be some little douche-nozzles saying the same shit about today's productions in due time,
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Old November 8th, 2008, 12:26 PM   #50 (permalink)
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don't worry, there'll be some little douche-nozzles saying the same shit about today's productions in due time,
Oh of course.
I was like 2 when Focus came out. It's no surprise that I think the production sounds like a wet fart.
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