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Old December 14th, 2012, 08:00 PM   #176 (permalink)
Genius Gone Insane
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I disagree. I see a significant lack of open-mindedness that has poisoned astronomers and cosmologists from the start. "Dark Matter" is an 80 year old term used to describe missing mass and is one of the first things all young astronomers learn. The term "Dark Matter" implies that scientists know what they are looking for. The term also implies that the solution to the "Dark Matter" problem is a new form of matter. From the get-go, scientists have been bred to solve this problem with missing matter.

The tired defense that we keep hearing is that cosmologists are able to piece together the universe with (even I will admit) such incredible accuracy. Therefore, they must be on the right track. Which is actually pretty reasonable. I will agree that if a new type of "Dark Matter" is found then the pieces will really be in place and we will be able to construct a successful final model of the universe. And I will be eating a very large Humble Pie.

However, there is no reason to believe the "Dark Matter" problem is some missing puzzle piece just waiting to be found. The reality is that the galaxy rotation problem is a gaping wound in our model. "Dark Matter" is a construct -- I repeat, a construct -- made to fill in the for the galaxy rotation problem. It has been the #1 problem for many years yet the best piece of evidence for the "Dark Matter" solution can only be found via 3.3 billion year old gravitational lensing.

Why do we so strongly favor searching for what boils down to being a construct?

Why is it so difficult for scientists to consider that things might work differently on Earth than they do in other parts of the universe? If anything, they should be assuming that time and gravity work differently when you look at 3.3 billion year old galaxy clusters. Yet we assume homogeneity. Why?

To solve this mystery with 100% certainty, we would need to somehow get outside our solar system, outside our galaxy, and our supercluster. But we can't do that. So what is the next best step? Can we look at maybe a moon or Mars mission and do tests there? No, unfortunately, that hasn't proven anything for or against "Dark Matter." Are there any other options we have?

Have we sent any other spacecraft out farther than Mars? If so, can we look at them and see if they have any answers for us? What is the man-made object furthest from earth? Do we have any information from these spacecraft from outside the solar system? Is there anything interesting/unusual that these spacecraft have seen?

And you probably already know the answer is yes. The Pioneer spacecrafts, the two most distant man-made objects, both reported as-of-yet unexplained anomalies. The evidence is right there. The only explanation for these anomalies is that time is moving slower for the two Pioneer craft.

This would also explain much of the galaxy spin problem. But what do I know.
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Old December 14th, 2012, 08:19 PM   #177 (permalink)
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"Dark Matter" is an 80 year old
Your mums dark matter is 80 years old!
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Old December 15th, 2012, 07:40 AM   #178 (permalink)
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I disagree. I see a significant lack of open-mindedness that has poisoned astronomers and cosmologists from the start. "Dark Matter" is an 80 year old term used to describe missing mass and is one of the first things all young astronomers learn. The term "Dark Matter" implies that scientists know what they are looking for. The term also implies that the solution to the "Dark Matter" problem is a new form of matter. From the get-go, scientists have been bred to solve this problem with missing matter.

The tired defense that we keep hearing is that cosmologists are able to piece together the universe with (even I will admit) such incredible accuracy. Therefore, they must be on the right track. Which is actually pretty reasonable. I will agree that if a new type of "Dark Matter" is found then the pieces will really be in place and we will be able to construct a successful final model of the universe. And I will be eating a very large Humble Pie.

However, there is no reason to believe the "Dark Matter" problem is some missing puzzle piece just waiting to be found. The reality is that the galaxy rotation problem is a gaping wound in our model. "Dark Matter" is a construct -- I repeat, a construct -- made to fill in the for the galaxy rotation problem. It has been the #1 problem for many years yet the best piece of evidence for the "Dark Matter" solution can only be found via 3.3 billion year old gravitational lensing.

Why do we so strongly favor searching for what boils down to being a construct?

Why is it so difficult for scientists to consider that things might work differently on Earth than they do in other parts of the universe? If anything, they should be assuming that time and gravity work differently when you look at 3.3 billion year old galaxy clusters. Yet we assume homogeneity. Why?

To solve this mystery with 100% certainty, we would need to somehow get outside our solar system, outside our galaxy, and our supercluster. But we can't do that. So what is the next best step? Can we look at maybe a moon or Mars mission and do tests there? No, unfortunately, that hasn't proven anything for or against "Dark Matter." Are there any other options we have?

Have we sent any other spacecraft out farther than Mars? If so, can we look at them and see if they have any answers for us? What is the man-made object furthest from earth? Do we have any information from these spacecraft from outside the solar system? Is there anything interesting/unusual that these spacecraft have seen?

And you probably already know the answer is yes. The Pioneer spacecrafts, the two most distant man-made objects, both reported as-of-yet unexplained anomalies. The evidence is right there. The only explanation for these anomalies is that time is moving slower for the two Pioneer craft.

This would also explain much of the galaxy spin problem. But what do I know.
*Sigh* there's only so much patience one can have with this:

Look, you really need to do some proper physics reading. You quite obviously don't know what you're talking about.
Anything I say to persuade you about any of this is pointless because you won't knuckle down to doing any real work to understand any of it.

I promise you, if you bother to learn some (or even a little bit, tbh) of the maths and theory, you'll have a much clearer perspective. Until then, I'm out.

P.S. please don't compare this to esotericism. I'm not saying that there is hidden knowledge that only the special few can understand and the rest of you should just take our word for it. I'm saying that if you want to challenge someone on a topic it helps to have some understanding of said topic. Go read some textbooks.
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Old December 15th, 2012, 03:14 PM   #179 (permalink)
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The good thing is right now the science world is pretty certain that the discovery of "Dark Matter" is right around the corner. There are some detectors being built that should give us a solid answer in the next few years.

Also, please do not misunderstand me. I truly hope I am wrong. I hope "Dark Matter" is found soon and science can take a major step forward. That would be amazing. But you are more likely to find gold at the end of a rainbow.
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Old December 15th, 2012, 03:52 PM   #180 (permalink)
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GGI, just for example, first line : if it's called dark matter, it's because calculations miss some "m" so that the equations even out. So that's why it was called dark matter, and is nothing else, put down simpler, than a "+c" missing in those. It's then a processus of "retro engineering" if you're following me, hopefully leading to a discover, and then the build of a "proof". Then, probably we will find out about details, maybe realize it's not actually what we think it was, refining the current paradigm. and on and on. That's all. Failure and mistakes are part of science, and if you expect scientists not to defend their own idea, then I don't know how you want them to do.

Also, I'm pretty sure if you opened (I didn't, to be fair) a book on the subject, and you would find out searchers are not as close minded as you picture them. It's only what you want to see. See, recently, they found out about a whole particle that just didn't "exist" yet because it wasn't proven. What is it to discover the way to prove something you can't touch nor see nor experience in any way with our senses and was missing from the first place, if this is not being open minded ? that's why no one is following you here

You don't solve the dark matter "problem" by going to the moon nor to mars. I don't see what you're talking about there.

Human crafter farthest object ever sent is Voyager 1 IIRC, not pioneer. And I don't think we can get anything new from it anymore, but I wouldn't bet on that, I'm not as geek as I used to be on the subject. Again I don't see what it would do about dark matter, it's just not the purpose of the mission nor the design of the object. I don't even think there is a need to build a machine to remotely go out of earth for such an enterprise. Probably it comes down to lower than atomic level, I'm not too sure. I don't see what going to a different place would make a difference, you would just move yourself and your origin of coordinates somewhere else, that's pretty much all. Unless you have a good reason why, say going next to a black hole maybe ? But how far is the closest one, I bet too far for several lifetimes, maybe too far to be reached with current paradigm of technologies ? I don't know.

Also, difference of "speed of time" is empirically proven, no one denies that since a long time ago. That still doesn't prove anything yet, it just means there is a problem to solver. I don't know why you're trying to make it a proof of a counter-theory which btw is quite difficult to get a grasp on.

I don't know what the fuck is your problem with gravity and time vs distance. There are theories for both parties. Let it go

"What do I know" probably next to nothing, which is even lower than I do, which is BTW not very admirable since I just did (though 3x more intense than normal) physics/maths scholarship, and not even REMOTELY near actual research. But yeah, that probably makes you a genius who thinks ahead
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Old December 15th, 2012, 08:45 PM   #181 (permalink)
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First, the problem with the Voyager spacecraft is that they had a nonlinear route. They bounced around the solar system in a zig-zag fashion, so there are too many variables to determine whether they have any anomalies. Pioneer spacecraft had a much simpler route, and that's why their data makes no sense. It has been a mystery for a couple decades.

Second, all of our extragalactic observations, 100%, every single one of them, have been from within our solar system, and 99.999% of our observations have been from earth. All of our theorems have been created based on our observations. I have done plenty of reading and searching (including textbooks) and I have not found one scientist who has questioned our observations. They acknowledge the possibility that our theory of gravity is wrong. In fact they all agree that we fail to understand gravity. However, they NEVER say that this failure is due to faulty observations. Never. Instead, they believe that our observations and equations are correct and the first problem to look at is missing mass.

Yet historically, when we make a major discovery around gravity or the cosmos, it has always been our observations that have been incorrect. Why do we cling so vehemently to our observations when there is such clear evidence that they are wrong?
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Old January 5th, 2013, 06:14 PM   #182 (permalink)
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We just discovered that the Andromeda galaxy has a pancake of smaller dwarf galaxies surrounding it. Our "Dark Matter" models cannot explain it. This is our next door neighbor yet we have no idea what the fuck is going on there. If we cannot tell what our neighbor is doing, how can we be so sure that "Dark Matter" is needed to explain all the distant galaxies. Sounds like scientists may finally be waking up:

"This tells us that this hierarchical buildup that gravitational simulations predict isn't quite right -- as structures like this 'andromeda pancake' never happen in the simulations. We may not understand gravity as well as many would like to believe."

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0103113846.htm
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Old January 6th, 2013, 12:28 AM   #183 (permalink)
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lol, in 5 years, everything you guys are talking will be revised. Imagine 20 years from now. When I was in elementary school, Pluto was a planet, now its not. The formation of the moon taught by my middle school teacher ended up being wrong (replaced by a stronger theory). Science is great, I love it, but theres no reason to get bent out of shape for it. Keep an open mind.
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Old January 6th, 2013, 06:55 AM   #184 (permalink)
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GGI, you're beating a dead horse. No one has claimed the dark matter exists nor knows how it is, no one has said "we know gravitation perfectly". That's fucking why people are working on it and that's why the word "theory" is used, so go attend a 5 year physics/math class, then take a 2 year specialty on astrophysics maybe, read a few books and chat with a few legit scientists, and then criticise as much as you want. Until then, stop pointing at links which funnily don't even go in your direction (showing scientists can change their mind through observation and create better models is only giving them more credit) because that's the whole point of the scientific method. Posting links to any article that says "we got an unpredicted result" have nothing to do with "we're fucking morons and thought we were 100% right"

If you think taking this 5 years lesson is gonna close your mind as opposed to what you are now and mislead you in the long term... then please go on thinking scientists are stupid and useless but do it alone

@XxSicRockerxX : just a note about Pluto, it's just terminology. About the rest, I'm a firm believer we should continue teaching what we know at the time when we know it, even knowing in 10 years it could be changing. If not then it's not even worth doing science. Current paradigm of technology is the closest thing we will ever have at a present moment, so let's use it, otherwise what is the point in the first place.
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Old January 8th, 2013, 05:28 PM   #185 (permalink)
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Some basic content here, but mostly i'm posting it to showcase the attitude. We don't know how the universe works and we don't claim to.
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Old January 9th, 2013, 03:59 AM   #186 (permalink)
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Bring back Feynman?
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Old January 9th, 2013, 06:17 AM   #187 (permalink)
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Bring back Feynman?
+1
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Old January 23rd, 2013, 11:36 AM   #188 (permalink)
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This speaks for itself, good job science, I feel real good about Dark Matter after reading this:

http://phys.org/news/2013-01-revolut...eory-dark.html
"...Raklev is now trying to prove that dark matter consists of gravitinos..."

"'The gravitino is the hypothetical, supersymmetric partner of the hypothetical particle graviton, so it is also impossible to predict a more hypothetical particle than this,' laughs Raklev."
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Old January 23rd, 2013, 11:50 AM   #189 (permalink)
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So ?
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Old January 23rd, 2013, 12:37 PM   #190 (permalink)
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This speaks for itself, good job science, I feel real good about Dark Matter after reading this:

http://phys.org/news/2013-01-revolut...eory-dark.html
"...Raklev is now trying to prove that dark matter consists of gravitinos..."

"'The gravitino is the hypothetical, supersymmetric partner of the hypothetical particle graviton, so it is also impossible to predict a more hypothetical particle than this,' laughs Raklev."
There are a lot of cool sound-bites on that page. I like how you just took one of them though.
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Old January 23rd, 2013, 01:36 PM   #191 (permalink)
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You guys are mocking me for not understanding how science works. Yet you look at how science works and it makes no sense at all. Science is trying to explain the already hypothetical "Dark Matter" by coming up with the most hypothetical particle possible. In short, they are pulling shit out of their ass and calling it science.

If I pulled their quote out of context, I will be happy to edit this post.
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Old January 23rd, 2013, 01:50 PM   #192 (permalink)
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You guys are mocking me for not understanding how science works. Yet you look at how science works and it makes no sense at all. Science is trying to explain the already hypothetical "Dark Matter" by coming up with the most hypothetical particle possible. In short, they are pulling shit out of their ass and calling it science.

If I pulled their quote out of context, I will be happy to edit this post.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory
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Old January 23rd, 2013, 01:59 PM   #193 (permalink)
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Why would scientists favor this hyper-hypothetical theory over a much more simple, elegant "Maybe time and gravity work differently" theory?
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Old January 23rd, 2013, 02:34 PM   #194 (permalink)
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I have simpler and more elegant solution for you : "God did it".
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Old January 23rd, 2013, 04:30 PM   #195 (permalink)
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^ haha, that was a good one, nice
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Old January 24th, 2013, 08:44 AM   #196 (permalink)
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Why would scientists favor this hyper-hypothetical theory over a much more simple, elegant "Maybe time and gravity work differently" theory?
Good idea. Try it. Publish your findings. You won't be the first, but maybe you have some new insights to share.

I'm not joking.

If you think you have a good idea then you need to follow it up. Or if you don't want to put in the time and effort, find a theoretical physics genius to do it.

Innovation is driven by people having new ideas and then knuckling down to making them work. If you think you've spotted something that people haven't already, then it is pretty much your duty to human knowledge to explore it.
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Old February 1st, 2013, 03:52 PM   #197 (permalink)
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My only good idea is that we should consider spending less resources trying to find "Dark Matter" and more resources double-checking our current laws and theories. Perhaps after doing so there will no longer be a need for "Dark Matter."

This sort of problem is not limited to astronomy. There is a worse problem going on right here on Earth, largely ignored.

http://www.dinosaurtheory.com/

"... Clearly the belief that there is no scientific paradox regarding the exceptionally large dinosaurs and pterosaurs is incorrect. Yet the paleontology community has no means of saving face while backing down from their position, and so they continue to mislead the public by denying the paradox. ..."

You could imagine the consequences if this guy is correct. If the earth's atmosphere had 2/3 the density of water when dinosaurs existed, it would shatter everything we know about science. We would have to rethink everything all over again. Who would fund that? What would it do to all the funding that our researchers are dependent upon? Crazy as I am, if I was a department chair at a university, I would not authorize such controversial research at the risk of losing my job and ability to feed my family.
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Old February 1st, 2013, 08:38 PM   #198 (permalink)
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This is nothing controversial nor nothing new, "mouse to elephant" and blabla. Except your link mentions 347 times higher pressure (667kg/m3 for a gas - insert facepalm here -). Talking about 2/3 of water density is laughable since it makes it a liquid instead of a simple gas, then why bother having wings instead of being a fish ? Explain trees ?
Something like a few bars would be more than enough to explain why a dino could fly and still not raise the question "but then why didn't they swim in the air instead since it would basically mean the air was an ocean". At least, post something with decent physics instead in the proof calculations, like this (Plus, it features my plane, which is a reason good enough for me to quote it http://levenspiel.com/octave/dinosaurs.htm ).

You're making it sound like this is something obscure and genius, while there are people studying it, it's not groundbreaking as an idea and not "unkown" and is one of the common explanations that have yet to be proven, I knew this one when I was a kid already (yeah I was a nerd in astronomy, dinosaurs, planes, and kid physics so go figure ). It faces many problems while only solving one or two, that's why for the moment it has not been proven yet to an acceptable level. Doesn't mean it's not true, it only means if this is true they have to explain how the metabolism would make other entities plausible at the same time and blabla.

Until it's proven, it won't be taught at school. If you think we should teach every other unproven theory at school to kids, please never become a teacher.

Oh and for the record, how do you want to cross check if the current theory is correct... if it is not by conflicting it with its limits ? It's by searching for something expected by maths that we discover if it exists or if the probabilities of its absence so far to highlight a problem in the theories are high. You are not gonna throw out of a hat "there is a problem here" if you... don't see a problem there. At the moment, they do, there is a whole proportion of mass missing that apparently affect calculations while we can't detect it. Here you go, problem, research, proof or counter proof, and hopefully someday, an answer to that, and a move on to the next problem Without the dark matter problem, you wouldn't be questioning current physics as much. So it's only positive, I still don't know months after you opened this thread what you are trying to achieve, or if you even know what you are talking about, or if you even know when/if what you say is even making your point and not science's one, even.
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Old February 3rd, 2013, 12:15 PM   #199 (permalink)
John_C
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Originally Posted by Genius Gone Insane View Post
My only good idea is that we should consider spending less resources trying to find "Dark Matter" and more resources double-checking our current laws and theories. Perhaps after doing so there will no longer be a need for "Dark Matter."

This sort of problem is not limited to astronomy. There is a worse problem going on right here on Earth, largely ignored.

http://www.dinosaurtheory.com/

"... Clearly the belief that there is no scientific paradox regarding the exceptionally large dinosaurs and pterosaurs is incorrect. Yet the paleontology community has no means of saving face while backing down from their position, and so they continue to mislead the public by denying the paradox. ..."

You could imagine the consequences if this guy is correct. If the earth's atmosphere had 2/3 the density of water when dinosaurs existed, it would shatter everything we know about science. We would have to rethink everything all over again. Who would fund that? What would it do to all the funding that our researchers are dependent upon? Crazy as I am, if I was a department chair at a university, I would not authorize such controversial research at the risk of losing my job and ability to feed my family.
You really NEED everything to be a conspiracy don't you.


Well, let me invent some more for you:

The earth is actually the centre of the solar system, but NASA is keeping it covered up in order to save face and preserve their funding.

Political rallies are all faked for the camera.

Osama bin Laden and Barrack Obama are fucking, the assassination was a fake so they could finally be together.

Electricity isn't actually made in power stations, it comes from mass milk farming fairies, but it's kept covered up because people would complain about the supernatural-creature abuse.

Mummy says that bleach is poisonous because she just wants to drink it all herself.



You sir, are nothing short of a first class nutcase. There are so many real conspiracies out there, it is EXCEEDINGLY infuriating that there are armies of people who are dedicated to uncovering them but instead waste their lives inventing non-existant ones.
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Last edited by John_C : February 3rd, 2013 at 12:18 PM.
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Old February 5th, 2013, 04:22 PM   #200 (permalink)
Genius Gone Insane
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This is nothing controversial nor nothing new, "mouse to elephant" and blabla. You're making it sound like this is something obscure and genius, while there are people studying it, it's not groundbreaking as an idea and not "unkown" and is one of the common explanations that have yet to be proven, I knew this one when I was a kid already (yeah I was a nerd in astronomy, dinosaurs, planes, and kid physics so go figure ). It faces many problems while only solving one or two, that's why for the moment it has not been proven yet to an acceptable level. Doesn't mean it's not true, it only means if this is true they have to explain how the metabolism would make other entities plausible at the same time and blabla.
.
I have never heard of it. And google searches turn nothing up on this. If this has been studied anywhere, please point me to it because I looked and was unable to find anything on it.
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