New album mastering?

PlasmaShock · February 17th, 2011, 07:31 PM

A question about mastering, do you guys plan to make this record more dynamic than most "loudness war" affected albums these days? The musical material for the album "Isolate" is absolutely fantastic, but it's so compressed and maximized to the point of digital clipping and you can easily hear how terrible it sounds. It really saddens me that that album was affected like that because it's really one of my favorites but it causes too much ear fatique.

For those who do not know what I'm talking about, he's short and sweet video to explain it:

You Tube

Frankgate · February 18th, 2011, 11:48 AM

I agree with the "Stop the loudness war" campaign, let's go back to dynamics!!

uliguit · February 19th, 2011, 02:07 AM

Oh yes,
the dynamic feel and sound of the "Isolate"-Album is really bad! Even in comparison with other "modern" albums.
Guys, please pay heed to achieve as most of the dynamics as possible! Too much compressed musik can't satisfy any music fan with healthy ears ...

Uli

Glen Mollen · February 19th, 2011, 03:08 PM

We`ll see what we can do guys n`girls

The new stuff will be mixed somewhere else this time around, so with a new breath of air into it, i am hoping we will get be best result possible .

Glen

PlasmaShock · February 19th, 2011, 04:05 PM

Keep in contact with the mixing and mastering engineers, and be sure to request dynamics in the mix. They actually love when clients request that because it's pretty rare these days.

Thank you for your response

Browncoat · February 19th, 2011, 05:55 PM

Okay, but's let's remember that 'dynamics' aren't achieved solely though contrast between volumes. 'Dynamics' can also refer to instruments and tones used, and other non-volume aspects of production.

I say this in defense of Tommy Hansen's job on the two Circus Maximus albums. I agree that they are mastered too loud, but they still sound good, due to the variety of the compositions. The "loudness war" and the importance of not mastering an album too loud is felt more in other genres of music.

My point is that I'm much more particular about the mixing/mastering on, say, an Agalloch album than I am on a Circus Maximus album. In prog metal, I think the objective should be to hear all instruments clearly and be able to percieve what they are playing. That is the most important part of mastering/mixing a progressive metal album. The other stuff is important too, but less so.

Just an alternate opinion, before everyone gangs up on The First Chapter and Isolate sounding bad. Hansen mixed/mastered Seventh Wonder's Waiting in the Wings, which is one of my favorite mixes of all time, up there with Moving Pictures and Heaven and Hell.

Interesting, though, that both SW and CM are using a different guy for their new albums.

PlasmaShock · February 20th, 2011, 01:10 PM

Good point. I was mostly referring to peak dynamics however. A fast paced, heavy song can still have dynamics between the guitars and snare drum. In the case of Isolate, the compression took away all of the punch of the drums and in general, causes a massive amount of ear fatigue. I'll post an example between "A Darkened Mind" from Isolate, and the song "Aces High" by Iron Maiden from the original 1984 Powerslave CD. Both songs are relatively "fast and heavy" songs:

http://img64.imageshack.us/f/75727339.jpg/

Notice that there is a good amount of range between the percussion peaks compared to the rest of the song on the first track of the screenshot. These are both lossless audio files so no modification has been done to the audio. There is some range between the softer and more intense parts of the Circus Maximus song, but because of the amount of compression and maximization used, there is digital clipping in the majority of the track. That can be heard on both expensive, and non-expensive equipment as well.

steeler6 · July 16th, 2011, 02:43 PM

I concur with this thread. As someone who's worked with engineers in the past, I can say that I share the same disappointment they get when they are told they have to push the levels up to the max. The truth is that the quality of the music sells, not the volume, so why not put some care in the mastering and make it more dynamic so everyone wins? This record label paranoia has to stop because it's ruining the sound quality and emotion of many great recent metal releases.

ccd333 · July 16th, 2011, 08:19 PM

Perhaps the most recent album gaining this dubious notoriety is Metallica's "Death Magnetic". For those that might say it doesn't matter with a band as heavy as them......I don't agree. There are still nuances to their sound that pushing the envelope of recording can destroy. It's just that it's enhanced greatly by a more progressive band that contains a lot of subtle elements. Here's hoping they get the sound just right for the new CM disc......a very good topic to bring up.

YtseBitsySpider · November 7th, 2011, 10:59 AM

LOL...Death Magnetic.....we'd be so lucky. It was actually released. This album is more like Chinese Democracy.

Zook · November 7th, 2011, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by YtseBitsySpider

LOL...Death Magnetic.....we'd be so lucky. It was actually released. This album is more like Chinese Democracy.

4 years. FOUR YEARS. Chinese Democracy took like 13 or 14 years. Don't make me get a broom.

YtseBitsySpider · November 9th, 2011, 08:19 AM

It'll take high end ban-spray. Look how long I've lasted at DTF, three or four site owners, several dozen mods, a forum split, a couple revolts. And you didn't even get to see me blast Portnoy in that Regarding Mike Portnoy thread. - I did get the warning of a life time from bosky via pm, and my post got deleted, but I had legit pissy concerns.

I love CM.
But, if I was in Vegas......I'd lay serious money against seeing a new disc this....OR NEXT calendar year.

but hey if I'm wrong....and we get one..that'll just be magnificent.

Zook · November 9th, 2011, 10:34 AM

What does your length at DTF have to do with anything? I was there 5 years before I got banned. Irrelevant.

YtseBitsySpider · November 10th, 2011, 11:04 AM

well....Im just pointing out that length of time without banning. You'd think I would have done SOMETHING in all that time. Increased time, increased odds in the likelyhood of me typing something stupid.

i've only been at this forum 5 minutes and I've already managed to do it...

kensillo · March 23rd, 2012, 10:49 PM

I agree with the dynamic sound, in these years the music sounds very monotonous with so compressed sound

kensillo · April 17th, 2012, 12:18 PM

im really surprised that the sound of the single was a little more dynamic sound than previous released,even a little i love it.

ManipulatorGeneral404 · July 15th, 2012, 10:55 PM

I checked the Namaste waveform in eager anticipation of what Glen and the band had done to fight the loudness war in response to the commentary of this thread and various audio engineers, audiophiles, and fans around the world, but the label apparently slammed down the loudness hammer, as Nine's mix is only a hairbreadth more dynamic than Isolate's and almost just as consistently limited. Although the actual mix pre-loudness war is the best of the three albums, I can hear the detrimental effects of compression and limiting all over this mix, especially in the weakened drum sound when Truls has been known for hard and heavy pounding, and it's very disappointing that this problem was not addressed. As an objective critic, I will have to note the excessive compression, its negative effects, and the inaction against this plague in any review of Nine I publish. This has gone on long enough, boys. Let's lay down the vuvuzelas and embrace dynamics, label be burnt after reading.

Manny11 · August 16th, 2012, 02:22 AM

ManipulatorGeneral has it spot on. Music's lovely, Architects of Fortune is an amazing opener. But, the poor snare drum has absolutely nowhere to go and it sometimes ends up sounding like a tomtom instead of an exciting drum. When everything gets busy, it shouldn't make you want to pull your hair out because of all the overwhelming crackling and popping going on. I listened to Nine on a vintage hi-fi system and it was unfortunately a tiring experience. Not to mention trying on the album on headphones. So I'm reduced to enjoying 2-3 songs at a time and no more.

It's all so sad, I wish there were dynamic mixes avaliable to buy, if only online, that's completely fine. Like DT did with their latest album, setting the volume back a bit (ReplayGain asks for -4,6dB) and putting out a 96/24.

This problem started to get serious 15 years ago. It's 2012. We have amazing microphones, preamps, amps, such capabilities, yet we butcher it all in this way. I believe not a SINGLE fan of this band and prog in general would complain about the album being too quiet.
So in the end, it turns out that recordings made in the 60s have a far cleaner, natural and superior sound than most modern records, of any genre.

Maybe I'm overreacting, but there are no signs of this ever stopping and I hate it. I hope some day, people will look back at this era of recordings and laugh.

http://deviantpics.com/images/V7WyL.png
http://deviantpics.com/images/Xw0Bp.png

February 19th, 2011, 03:08 PM	#4 (permalink)
Glen Mollen Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 21	We`ll see what we can do guys n`girls The new stuff will be mixed somewhere else this time around, so with a new breath of air into it, i am hoping we will get be best result possible . Glen __________________ Bassplayer - Circus Maximus

February 20th, 2011, 01:10 PM	#7 (permalink)
PlasmaShock Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 76	Good point. I was mostly referring to peak dynamics however. A fast paced, heavy song can still have dynamics between the guitars and snare drum. In the case of Isolate, the compression took away all of the punch of the drums and in general, causes a massive amount of ear fatigue. I'll post an example between "A Darkened Mind" from Isolate, and the song "Aces High" by Iron Maiden from the original 1984 Powerslave CD. Both songs are relatively "fast and heavy" songs: http://img64.imageshack.us/f/75727339.jpg/ Notice that there is a good amount of range between the percussion peaks compared to the rest of the song on the first track of the screenshot. These are both lossless audio files so no modification has been done to the audio. There is some range between the softer and more intense parts of the Circus Maximus song, but because of the amount of compression and maximization used, there is digital clipping in the majority of the track. That can be heard on both expensive, and non-expensive equipment as well. Last edited by PlasmaShock : February 20th, 2011 at 01:16 PM.

November 9th, 2011, 10:34 AM	#13 (permalink)
Zook Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 95	What does your length at DTF have to do with anything? I was there 5 years before I got banned. Irrelevant. __________________

April 17th, 2012, 12:18 PM	#16 (permalink)
kensillo Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 13	im really surprised that the sound of the single was a little more dynamic sound than previous released,even a little i love it. Last edited by kensillo : April 17th, 2012 at 12:26 PM.

February 18th, 2011, 11:48 AM	#2 (permalink)
Frankgate Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 538	I agree with the "Stop the loudness war" campaign, let's go back to dynamics!!

February 19th, 2011, 02:07 AM	#3 (permalink)
uliguit Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 2	Oh yes, the dynamic feel and sound of the "Isolate"-Album is really bad! Even in comparison with other "modern" albums. Guys, please pay heed to achieve as most of the dynamics as possible! Too much compressed musik can't satisfy any music fan with healthy ears ... Uli

February 19th, 2011, 04:05 PM	#5 (permalink)
PlasmaShock Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 76	Keep in contact with the mixing and mastering engineers, and be sure to request dynamics in the mix. They actually love when clients request that because it's pretty rare these days. Thank you for your response

February 19th, 2011, 05:55 PM	#6 (permalink)
Browncoat Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 2	Okay, but's let's remember that 'dynamics' aren't achieved solely though contrast between volumes. 'Dynamics' can also refer to instruments and tones used, and other non-volume aspects of production. I say this in defense of Tommy Hansen's job on the two Circus Maximus albums. I agree that they are mastered too loud, but they still sound good, due to the variety of the compositions. The "loudness war" and the importance of not mastering an album too loud is felt more in other genres of music. My point is that I'm much more particular about the mixing/mastering on, say, an Agalloch album than I am on a Circus Maximus album. In prog metal, I think the objective should be to hear all instruments clearly and be able to percieve what they are playing. That is the most important part of mastering/mixing a progressive metal album. The other stuff is important too, but less so. Just an alternate opinion, before everyone gangs up on The First Chapter and Isolate sounding bad. Hansen mixed/mastered Seventh Wonder's Waiting in the Wings, which is one of my favorite mixes of all time, up there with Moving Pictures and Heaven and Hell. Interesting, though, that both SW and CM are using a different guy for their new albums.

July 16th, 2011, 02:43 PM	#8 (permalink)
steeler6 Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 11	I concur with this thread. As someone who's worked with engineers in the past, I can say that I share the same disappointment they get when they are told they have to push the levels up to the max. The truth is that the quality of the music sells, not the volume, so why not put some care in the mastering and make it more dynamic so everyone wins? This record label paranoia has to stop because it's ruining the sound quality and emotion of many great recent metal releases.

July 16th, 2011, 08:19 PM	#9 (permalink)
ccd333 Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 23	Perhaps the most recent album gaining this dubious notoriety is Metallica's "Death Magnetic". For those that might say it doesn't matter with a band as heavy as them......I don't agree. There are still nuances to their sound that pushing the envelope of recording can destroy. It's just that it's enhanced greatly by a more progressive band that contains a lot of subtle elements. Here's hoping they get the sound just right for the new CM disc......a very good topic to bring up.

November 7th, 2011, 10:59 AM	#10 (permalink)
YtseBitsySpider Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 17	LOL...Death Magnetic.....we'd be so lucky. It was actually released. This album is more like Chinese Democracy.

November 9th, 2011, 08:19 AM	#12 (permalink)
YtseBitsySpider Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 17	It'll take high end ban-spray. Look how long I've lasted at DTF, three or four site owners, several dozen mods, a forum split, a couple revolts. And you didn't even get to see me blast Portnoy in that Regarding Mike Portnoy thread. - I did get the warning of a life time from bosky via pm, and my post got deleted, but I had legit pissy concerns. I love CM. But, if I was in Vegas......I'd lay serious money against seeing a new disc this....OR NEXT calendar year. but hey if I'm wrong....and we get one..that'll just be magnificent.

November 10th, 2011, 11:04 AM	#14 (permalink)
YtseBitsySpider Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 17	well....Im just pointing out that length of time without banning. You'd think I would have done SOMETHING in all that time. Increased time, increased odds in the likelyhood of me typing something stupid. i've only been at this forum 5 minutes and I've already managed to do it...

March 23rd, 2012, 10:49 PM	#15 (permalink)
kensillo Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 13	I agree with the dynamic sound, in these years the music sounds very monotonous with so compressed sound

July 15th, 2012, 10:55 PM	#17 (permalink)
ManipulatorGeneral404 Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 20	I checked the Namaste waveform in eager anticipation of what Glen and the band had done to fight the loudness war in response to the commentary of this thread and various audio engineers, audiophiles, and fans around the world, but the label apparently slammed down the loudness hammer, as Nine's mix is only a hairbreadth more dynamic than Isolate's and almost just as consistently limited. Although the actual mix pre-loudness war is the best of the three albums, I can hear the detrimental effects of compression and limiting all over this mix, especially in the weakened drum sound when Truls has been known for hard and heavy pounding, and it's very disappointing that this problem was not addressed. As an objective critic, I will have to note the excessive compression, its negative effects, and the inaction against this plague in any review of Nine I publish. This has gone on long enough, boys. Let's lay down the vuvuzelas and embrace dynamics, label be burnt after reading.

August 16th, 2012, 02:22 AM	#18 (permalink)
Manny11 Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 1	ManipulatorGeneral has it spot on. Music's lovely, Architects of Fortune is an amazing opener. But, the poor snare drum has absolutely nowhere to go and it sometimes ends up sounding like a tomtom instead of an exciting drum. When everything gets busy, it shouldn't make you want to pull your hair out because of all the overwhelming crackling and popping going on. I listened to Nine on a vintage hi-fi system and it was unfortunately a tiring experience. Not to mention trying on the album on headphones. So I'm reduced to enjoying 2-3 songs at a time and no more. It's all so sad, I wish there were dynamic mixes avaliable to buy, if only online, that's completely fine. Like DT did with their latest album, setting the volume back a bit (ReplayGain asks for -4,6dB) and putting out a 96/24. This problem started to get serious 15 years ago. It's 2012. We have amazing microphones, preamps, amps, such capabilities, yet we butcher it all in this way. I believe not a SINGLE fan of this band and prog in general would complain about the album being too quiet. So in the end, it turns out that recordings made in the 60s have a far cleaner, natural and superior sound than most modern records, of any genre. Maybe I'm overreacting, but there are no signs of this ever stopping and I hate it. I hope some day, people will look back at this era of recordings and laugh. http://deviantpics.com/images/V7WyL.png http://deviantpics.com/images/Xw0Bp.png