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Old September 8th, 2011, 08:32 AM   #426 (permalink)
deLuther
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Djabthrash View Post
A little question for you guys :

I did my first reamp try a couple of days ago, plugging my Schecter Hellraiser C1-FR (EMG81 in the bridge) in the LittleLabs RedEye phantom 3D (DI mode, passive input), then going to my RME Fireface UC mic preamp channel input.
When looking at this channel input level meters in TotalMix (the RME virtual mixing console kind of), i had to use +22dB of preamp gain on that channel so that i could reach a max peak at approx. -3dB...
+22dB preamp gain seems like a lot to me and it seems i did everything right and by the books (and my DI recorded track looks and sounds fine)... is that "normal" ?
It seems OK, many DI boxes have gain reduction of 20 db or so and maximum input level at zero gain is +10 dbu (according to FF UC specifications).
So it`s not strange.
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Old September 8th, 2011, 09:27 AM   #427 (permalink)
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It seems OK, many DI boxes have gain reduction of 20 db or so and maximum input level at zero gain is +10 dbu (according to FF UC specifications).
So it`s not strange.
Thanks !

After reading your answer i went back reading the RedEye user manual and found this (which confirms what you told me) :

"redeye 3D phantom :

instrument / re-amp out and level trim :

This is the high impedance instrument output on the front of
the Redeye 3D. This is in DI mode the "thru" to the amp. In re-amp
mode this is your re-amp output to the amp. The adjacent instrument/
re-amp level trim works as an attenuator just like the volume control on
your guitar and works in the thru and the re-amp out mode.

When using the unbuffered instrument input this output in DI
mode will be -3dB from what is plugged in
, so in other words you lose
a small amount of level. If you attempt to use this on a passive pick up,
it will seem like more because of the combination of loading the pick
up and this small level loss. The 3dB loss is due to travelling thru the
internal electronics passively.

mic level male xlr out :

This is the output of the DI section of the Redeye 3D Phantom, what
comes out here is a lo impedance (500 ohm) balanced signal approximately
18dB below what is plugged into the instrument inputs
. It should be plugged
into a microphone preamplifi er and if you are using the active buffered
input the microphone preamplifi er should have phantom power engaged.

Understanding gain structure in recording is important. Keep
in mind a passive pick up guitar puts out anything from -10dB to -25dB.
Going thru a mic level direct box like the Redeye 3D drops this level
by another 18dB so you need a microphone preamplifi ers gain set anywhere
from +32dB to +47dB to get a +4dB (0VU) line level signal."



So 3dB + 18 dB = 21dB of gain reduction already, so adding +22dB of preamp gain on the mic preamp makes perfect sense then.

Last edited by Djabthrash : September 8th, 2011 at 10:07 AM.
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Old September 10th, 2011, 06:40 PM   #428 (permalink)
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i'm just workin with DI before reamping.. i have a couple of questions for you..

1 - i'm using elastic audio for quantizing.. i found really difficult this part.. because if i quantize right on the attack of the note everything sounds too much early.. tips? how do you recognize the right point for placing the marker and quantize?

2 - how do you use melodyne? do you melodyne all the track or only some point of it? ho do you set melodyne?

3 - how do you work with timing and pitch with bass DI? the same of guitar?

at the moment i have all quantized.. but "something" still sounds wrong.. like too pushed or too early.. quite randomly.. i'm trying to find the right way to fix this.. plz help me.. really really tks a lot.
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Old September 12th, 2011, 05:17 AM   #429 (permalink)
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This will not help and I'm sorry but I find your questions amusing when I read your signature
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Old September 12th, 2011, 05:31 AM   #430 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brett - K A L I S I A View Post
This will not help and I'm sorry but I find your questions amusing when I read your signature
My thoughts exactly
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Old September 12th, 2011, 05:36 AM   #431 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by SickBoy View Post
My thoughts exactly
what's about my signature?

ps: i got this work already recorded. no way to record things better.
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Old September 12th, 2011, 05:53 AM   #432 (permalink)
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Quote:
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what's about my signature?

ps: i got this work already recorded. no way to record things better.
I guess Brett and myself found the line "playing music BETTER" amusing, given your questions
The guys/girls who've done the tracks aren't really home on their instruments apparently... I've recorded some lousy players but never had to timestretch or melodynize the stringed instrument tracks. Good luck!
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Old September 12th, 2011, 06:02 AM   #433 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by SickBoy View Post
I guess Brett and myself found the line "playing music BETTER" amusing, given your questions
The guys/girls who've done the tracks aren't really home on their instruments apparently... I've recorded some lousy players but never had to timestretch or melodynize the stringed instrument tracks. Good luck!
lol.. never used melodyne on bass/guitar? me too.. xD
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Old September 16th, 2011, 05:12 PM   #434 (permalink)
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are there some studios that do professional re-amping? I certainly do not own all the amps I would like t use in particular song and this would be very useful to get another tone w/o buying tons of new gear.
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Old September 17th, 2011, 03:55 AM   #435 (permalink)
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Yes here you will find many people including myself that offer this service at various rates.
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Old October 18th, 2011, 11:13 AM   #436 (permalink)
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Reamping Bass - DI Instrument + Pedals

Hi

Westy here, long term lurker, first time poster. I'm about to do my first bit of re amping.

I have a plan for guitar,

Record: Gibson SG --> Countryman DI --> DAW
Re amp: DAW --> Radial Pro Re amp box --> Guitar Rig --> Mic --> DAW

But....

I'm not sure about bass because our guy uses a load of pedals.

Ideally I want to be able to record a DI signal from the bass itself and also a signal after it's been through his fuzz and wah.

I do have a Hughes & Kettner Red Box Classic which I bought before doing any research on this stuff so I do have 2 DI boxes at my disposal. Preservation of the signal quality is paramount though so I'm more than happy to ditch that and replace it with something better if needed.

Do I need 2 DI boxes and split the signal straight out of the bass or am I missing some really obvious solution that's right in front of me?
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Old November 2nd, 2011, 01:07 PM   #437 (permalink)
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Hi,

Some time ago, I bought Radial reamping kit (J48 and Xamp). Now that I have finished MIDI drum tracks, I'm gonna take care of the guitars and bass. I wonder how to put it all together with Eleven Rack and Fireface 800 to Logic. I mean, I have a plan in my head, but I thought that without revealing that to you I would ask you for your view on this. Without knowing my plan/setup your opinion will be totally unbiased and perhaps I will learn sth new. Pls let me know what your views are.
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Old November 2nd, 2011, 01:41 PM   #438 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by westicle View Post
Hi

Westy here, long term lurker, first time poster. I'm about to do my first bit of re amping.

I have a plan for guitar,

Record: Gibson SG --> Countryman DI --> DAW
Re amp: DAW --> Radial Pro Re amp box --> Guitar Rig --> Mic --> DAW

But....

I'm not sure about bass because our guy uses a load of pedals.

Ideally I want to be able to record a DI signal from the bass itself and also a signal after it's been through his fuzz and wah.

I do have a Hughes & Kettner Red Box Classic which I bought before doing any research on this stuff so I do have 2 DI boxes at my disposal. Preservation of the signal quality is paramount though so I'm more than happy to ditch that and replace it with something better if needed.

Do I need 2 DI boxes and split the signal straight out of the bass or am I missing some really obvious solution that's right in front of me?
Well, there are two ways that you could do this:

1. You can take DI's from the bass straight into the DI box, then once the performance is recorded you can use the reamp box to send the DI through the floor pedals and directly back to the DI box and into a separate track for recording. I do this a lot with guitar and bass tracks. The only caveat is the wah might not sound exactly the same when reamped as it does with the bass hooked directly into it, but it may sound similar enough that it won't make much of a difference. Hopefully your bass player is an easygoing guy.

2. You can split the output of the bass using an active split which is transformer isolated. Something like the Lehle Dual. After the split the signal routing is quite obvious. One side goes to the first DI box then DAW and the other side goes through the pedals and then the DI and DAW.

First way is cheaper

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundLoc View Post
Hi,

Some time ago, I bought Radial reamping kit (J48 and Xamp). Now that I have finished MIDI drum tracks, I'm gonna take care of the guitars and bass. I wonder how to put it all together with Eleven Rack and Fireface 800 to Logic. I mean, I have a plan in my head, but I thought that without revealing that to you I would ask you for your view on this. Without knowing my plan/setup your opinion will be totally unbiased and perhaps I will learn sth new. Pls let me know what your views are.
I'd love to help you, but I'm afraid I've got no idea what you are asking.
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Old November 2nd, 2011, 02:08 PM   #439 (permalink)
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In short, how to connect xamp, j48 and Eleven for guitar tracking for reamping and then how to connect the gear for reamping proper. And what setup for guitars and what setup for bass. I hope it is clearer now.
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Old November 2nd, 2011, 02:22 PM   #440 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by JakeAC5253 View Post
Well, there are two ways that you could do this:

1. You can take DI's from the bass straight into the DI box, then once the performance is recorded you can use the reamp box to send the DI through the floor pedals and directly back to the DI box and into a separate track for recording. I do this a lot with guitar and bass tracks. The only caveat is the wah might not sound exactly the same when reamped as it does with the bass hooked directly into it, but it may sound similar enough that it won't make much of a difference. Hopefully your bass player is an easygoing guy.

2. You can split the output of the bass using an active split which is transformer isolated. Something like the Lehle Dual. After the split the signal routing is quite obvious. One side goes to the first DI box then DAW and the other side goes through the pedals and then the DI and DAW.

First way is cheaper
Thanks Jake, I can see how they would both work. I'd probably go for the second option though as I'd like to capture the playing and the pedal/wah changes all in the same go.

As it turns out I bought the reamp box for doing guitars but couldn't get it to work. We've decided to go down the recording everything as normal route without re amping. I've sold the red box and the x-amp and bought some monitors.

We'll be recording bass next week. I've just got to work out how I want to mic that up now....
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Old November 22nd, 2011, 07:34 AM   #441 (permalink)
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about tuning everything before reamping: what's about placing an ANTARES AUTOTUNE EFX, with soft EFX on each bass/gtr DI?

tks a lot!
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Old December 21st, 2011, 10:21 AM   #442 (permalink)
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Hi there, i'm new in this forum and in the reamp world, so please don't insult me if i say something wrong. or do it, if it please you.

So, i've already recorded all the guitars with this configuration:

guitar --> DI --> Mixer --> DAW (M-audio 410)

now it's time to do the reamp and i just found out that my DAW doesn't have balanced output. i mean, since it was designed by a troll it has 8 outputs and all are unbalanced.

so, what are your advice/suggestions about going to my Reamp box (still unsure if it's gonna be a Radial PRORMP or X-amp, it depends if i want to eat or not next month) from an unbalanced output?
i thought about some options:

1) DAW --> DI (used as a normal DI, not a reversed one) --> REAMP , but phase problems? output signal loss? noise added?

2) DAW ---> mixer (mackie 1202) ---> REAMP but, output signal loss? noise added?

3) DAW headphones output (since it's balanced). i'm not really sure why but i know this option sounds really stupid and won't work (it's a stereo output OK I KNOW, but maybe... ??żżż)

4) buying beers and get drunk

5) buying a new DAW (it's about time) with balanced output and a smile on the interface.


Any suggestion will be really appreciated!

Thanks in advance

Michele
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Old December 21st, 2011, 10:41 AM   #443 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by satanismyguide View Post
Hi there, i'm new in this forum and in the reamp world, so please don't insult me if i say something wrong. or do it, if it please you.

So, i've already recorded all the guitars with this configuration:

guitar --> DI --> Mixer --> DAW (M-audio 410)

now it's time to do the reamp and i just found out that my DAW doesn't have balanced output. i mean, since it was designed by a troll it has 8 outputs and all are unbalanced.

so, what are your advice/suggestions about going to my Reamp box (still unsure if it's gonna be a Radial PRORMP or X-amp, it depends if i want to eat or not next month) from an unbalanced output?
i thought about some options:

1) DAW --> DI (used as a normal DI, not a reversed one) --> REAMP , but phase problems? output signal loss? noise added?

2) DAW ---> mixer (mackie 1202) ---> REAMP but, output signal loss? noise added?

3) DAW headphones output (since it's balanced). i'm not really sure why but i know this option sounds really stupid and won't work (it's a stereo output OK I KNOW, but maybe... ??żżż)

4) buying beers and get drunk

5) buying a new DAW (it's about time) with balanced output and a smile on the interface.


Any suggestion will be really appreciated!

Thanks in advance

Michele
Couldn't read it in depth because, at the moment, I have to go. But I think that the first thing you should do is to reconsider that when you say "DAW", you really mean "interface".

DAW is a Digital Audio Workstation, hardware based or computer-based, like ProTools, Cubase, Nuendo...

Interface is the hardware you use to enter the audio into the computer (uses to be a soundcard, AD/DA...).

In your case, I think you should go like this:

Guitar --> DI Box --> M-Audio --> DAW

Or, if you don't have a DI Box:

Guitar --> M-Audio --> DAW

About the balanced outputs, worry about them if you are going to use the reamp to send the clean signal back to a guitar amplifier and you have a long distance between the source and the destination. In other cases, like computer-reamping (Guitar Rig, etc), you can work without it.

Last edited by CosmoHack : December 21st, 2011 at 10:47 AM. Reason: Info added.
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Old December 22nd, 2011, 04:06 AM   #444 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by CosmoHack View Post
Couldn't read it in depth because, at the moment, I have to go. But I think that the first thing you should do is to reconsider that when you say "DAW", you really mean "interface".

DAW is a Digital Audio Workstation, hardware based or computer-based, like ProTools, Cubase, Nuendo...

Interface is the hardware you use to enter the audio into the computer (uses to be a soundcard, AD/DA...).

In your case, I think you should go like this:

Guitar --> DI Box --> M-Audio --> DAW

Or, if you don't have a DI Box:

Guitar --> M-Audio --> DAW

About the balanced outputs, worry about them if you are going to use the reamp to send the clean signal back to a guitar amplifier and you have a long distance between the source and the destination. In other cases, like computer-reamping (Guitar Rig, etc), you can work without it.

Hi there thanks for your answer.
yeah, i think that i messed a little bit with the DAW concept.
anyway, the real problem is the unbalanced output of my interface. i'm gonna reamp sending the clean signal to my guitar amplifer (no computer reamping).
I'll try to have the shortest distance possible between my output and the REAMP, but how can i exit from the M-audio as unbalanced and arrive at the Reamp input as balanced? I mean, which would be the best way in order to avoid as much as possible signal loss and added noise? I could buy a new interface if it's worth, but that would be the only reason to buy it.
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Old December 22nd, 2011, 08:42 AM   #445 (permalink)
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You need the DI Box to convert the unbalanced signal to balanced.
So, once everything is recorded, send it this way:

DAW -> Interface -> DI Box -> Amp

But again, you may need another DI Box to send the signal captured from the miked amp back into the interface.

So: one DI Box to send the signal, and another one (or two, three.. it depends on how many mics you use) to receive it processed back on the DAW.
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Old December 22nd, 2011, 11:24 AM   #446 (permalink)
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OK, as i thought the DAW -> Interface -> DI Box -> Amp can be the solution.
but i can't really understand why i need to pass again through the DI in the chain MIC --> interface (where the input are balanced, only the output are unbalanced...).
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Old December 22nd, 2011, 01:15 PM   #447 (permalink)
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Yeah you don't need a DI box to get your mic signal to the interface.

You miiiight just be able to use the unbalanced output of your interface and plug that into your reamp box. The signal will be a bit lower than if you'd used a balanced output but you might be able to compensate by boosting the level on your reamp box and tubescreamer. (If you're using a Radial Pro RMP then check out this mod to make sure you get the full strength signal out of it)
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Old December 23rd, 2011, 01:01 PM   #448 (permalink)
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Thanks for your answers guys.
The only reason i'm a little bit afraid of this process (together with the loss of dynamic and sound signal) is the huge hum/noise that i could create with all these passages. But anyway, i guess i just need to try it.
I guess that i'll go with the Radial X-amp, X-mas is near.

Michele
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Old December 30th, 2011, 02:16 PM   #449 (permalink)
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Question

Hey guys!

I finished my shootout for DI-boxes/reampers and ended up with the LL Redeye 3D Phantom. Now I'm handling the next problem. The annoying noise produced while reamping.

Here's my signal chain:
  • ESI ESP 1010e analog output
  • LL Redeye 3d Phatom
  • Maxon OD808
  • Marshall JVM410HCF (out through FxSend)
  • ESI ESP 1010e analog input
  • LeCab2 (orange 2x12 & mf400a impulses)

I set the output level of the DI-track to unity gain (thx DeLuther for your help!) and tweaked the amp until I liked the sound and got around -4dB of level on my recording interfaces input(without LeCab activated to get the real level).

First thing I noticed was the absurd amount of hiss and noise comming out of the amp (and the monitored input channel). I figured out that the OD808 tubescreamer produced 90% of the noise. Without it its still a little bit worse than whith the input jack of the amp unplugged, but still OK. So I messed around with the tubescreamers controlls and found out that the tone knob directly "controlls" the hiss. The more I turned it up the more noise came out of my speakers. My favourite Settings are usually Overdrive 0, Balance 10, Tone 10 but to keep the hiss down I turned tone down to 7.
Another thing I realised was that if I put a battery into the tubescreamer instead of a powersupply the hiss looses a good portion of level.

I put 2 samples up where I did the following:
  • Tubescreamer off, groundlift deactivated, Di track muted
  • activate ground lift
  • switch on tubescreamer with tone 0
  • turn up tone to 10 and the back to 7
  • unmute the DI track and reamp the last bit of it

Noisetest with powersupply
Noisetest with battery

Is there room for improvement? Surely there is, but how?
How do you guys handle tubescreamers while reamping?

Last edited by Torgal : December 30th, 2011 at 02:44 PM.
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Old January 12th, 2012, 10:58 AM   #450 (permalink)
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Not sure if it's been addressed before, but still, i have a question about guitar DI signal levels when using real amps VS vst ampsims :

1) For further reamping (mostly through "real" amps), we first record a guitar DI signal following the following recommendation :

"Try setting your preamp's gain so that the absolute loudest part of the guitar's signal is peaking at about -3 to -4dB below the zero mark on your record meter. You're recording at 24 bit, so you have plenty of room before noise sets in. Don't try to get the level to zero, it'll cause you grief with overs. A dry guitar is very,very dynamic & unpredictable. -3 to -4 will work great."

2) and then when reamping, we have to get this DI signal to the right level so that it goes into the "real" amp at the "appropriate level" (means the same level you have when plugging your guitar directly into the amp).

My question is : what's the recommended signal level for step 2) when dealing with ampsims (LePou stuff, TSE stuff, etc) ou clean boost sims (such as TSS or TSE 808) ? Do you leave it at the recorded DI level (peaks at -3/-4), or do you need to take it to a different level (like you would do with "real" amps) ? If so (need to adjust the level so that it's not the "peaks at -3/-4" level anymore), do you use the ampsim "input" (volume) knob, or do you change the volume BEFORE the signal hits the ampsim ? Is there a difference between both anyway ?
In other words, should we treat an ampsim the same way we treat a real amp, input volume-wise ?

Then here is my second question : when using an ampsim as an effect on a DI track, and an impulse response right after in the FX chain, what kind of level is "appropriate" for your impulse response loader (be it Lecab, Recabinet, PI-101, ...) ? Something that peaks at -3/-4 ? (like the DI track) ? Do you use the "master volume"/"output volume" knob of your ampsim in such a way that you get a "peaks at -3/-4" signal out of it ?

Last edited by Djabthrash : January 12th, 2012 at 05:20 PM.
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