Room mic question

Ermz · September 17th, 2007, 10:51 AM

How do you guys process your room mics? My biggest problem is after squashing the crap out of the room mics to fatten them out, I get a ton of cymbals which clash with my overheads... it's not a pretty sound. How do I get that nice fat rock drum ambiance without all the shit?

BushmasterM4 · September 17th, 2007, 11:12 AM

I dont use any room mics. But maybe I should

. But Im satified with the sound I get without. Have you tried? I know alot has to do with the room and placement. And thats why I think alot of engineers/producers rely on drumagog when the room dynamics dont go in their favor. Sorry Im not much help.

Grave Desire · September 17th, 2007, 11:35 AM

I have been struggling with that same issue. I liked the agressive sound that squashing the room mics gave me..but everytime I blended it in with the rest of the kit the cymbals just are too much. I tried filtering out some of the highs to try to help..but I really didn't like that either. At the end of the day I just didn't compress the room mics as much and blended it in with the rest of the kit until I liked it.

Another kind of room mic question...do you guys usually align the room mic with the rest of the kit? It seems like the delay you get with the room mics is what makes that "room" sound, but when you do align it can make the kit sound tighter.

Machinated · September 17th, 2007, 12:17 PM

I low pass at around 2.5kHz, and compress them loads so that I get loads of pumping. I find this gives the drums a nice groove, when mixed in subtley. Sometimes Ill boost the bass loads to get a nice thump, and also playing with the mids can have cool effects on the kit sound. Try boosting and cutting around 600Hz and see what difference it makes.

botus99 · September 17th, 2007, 12:47 PM

you could maybe try some multiband compression. Compress the hell out of the bass and mids, then leave the high end untouched or with much less compression

alexrookie · September 17th, 2007, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moonlapse

How do you guys process your room mics? My biggest problem is after squashing the crap out of the room mics to fatten them out, I get a ton of cymbals which clash with my overheads... it's not a pretty sound. How do I get that nice fat rock drum ambiance without all the shit?

the bleed of the cymbals is the biggest issue with room mics and that's why some producers/engineers like to track the drums in two sessions - shells first and second the cymbals.

i tried it and i'm really pleased with the result - for the first time i could really squash the room mics ( mono room, stereo wide and fx mic in another room) - no fx reverb added and the kit is my best sounding yet , i think!

but this way to do it is so super time consuming, it's unbelievable.

quantizing the shells first for playback and then quantizing the cymbals to the shells - it's like editing two songs instead of one.

but for a normal recording setup with the whole drumset there is no other way to get rid of the cymbals than to not squashing your room mics to hell.
so it seems like i'm not that sort of a big help for you, sorry!!

somebody mentioned to time allign the room mics to the kit - doesn't make sense to me, cause the delay is what makes the room sounding big.
some people like albini even delay the room mics for 20 ms to get rid of comb filtering.

best,

alex

greyskull · September 17th, 2007, 02:19 PM

filter the top and bottom off, at 80 hz and a very slow filter at 2-5 k.
then the room mics dont interfere with your ohs and kick.
also pan them 45-45 or somewhere a lot less wide than your ohs, so theres a bit of space in the stereo image.

oh. and squash the living shit out of them.
slow attack fast release, high ratio, high threshold.
the free ssl lmc is great for this, and... well... free!!

Seizure. · September 17th, 2007, 02:37 PM

jup.. compress... then compress again.. and then some more.. did i mention distortion?

Also.. its cool to have 2 kinds of roommics...

2 condenser/ribbons which you place to capture the whole sound in a good balance, the way it sounds in the room.
You take these to compliment your closemics.

Then 2 other mics some ALOT further away, facing the walls not the kit to capture reflections, this is your reverb so to speak

Ermz · September 17th, 2007, 06:09 PM

Cheers guys. So it seems there's really no easy fix. My issue with filtering the room mics so aggressively is that you lose the 'life' of the sound, so to speak. It just sounds like you're playing in some boxy shite room and doesn't give that nice ambiance that you can hear on songs like the start of Porcupine Tree's 'Halo' and Nighrage's 'Elusive Emotion'.

BushmasterM4 · September 17th, 2007, 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alexrookie

the bleed of the cymbals is the biggest issue with room mics and that's why some producers/engineers like to track the drums in two sessions - shells first and second the cymbals.

i tried it and i'm really pleased with the result - for the first time i could really squash the room mics ( mono room, stereo wide and fx mic in another room) - no fx reverb added and the kit is my best sounding yet , i think!

but this way to do it is so super time consuming, it's unbelievable.

quantizing the shells first for playback and then quantizing the cymbals to the shells - it's like editing two songs instead of one.

but for a normal recording setup with the whole drumset there is no other way to get rid of the cymbals than to not squashing your room mics to hell.
so it seems like i'm not that sort of a big help for you, sorry!!

somebody mentioned to time allign the room mics to the kit - doesn't make sense to me, cause the delay is what makes the room sounding big.
some people like albini even delay the room mics for 20 ms to get rid of comb filtering.

best,

alex

I actually do my drums like that at times. Im not a drummer and I struggle when recording them. So I actually will do that because I cant freakin play them.

Im not in a band or anything and just play for my own pleasure. So Ive been learning to play anything I can get my hands on.

C_F_H_13 · September 18th, 2007, 12:00 AM

this isn't exactly "budget minded" but you could always go the Soundgarden Superunknown route.

They setup a second set of mics on the kick/snare/toms that fed a PA that was BLASTING in the room along with the drums...through the balance towards the actual drums and away from the cymbals.

I also read an article about Blink 182's last record, where the producer used those cylinder shaped Diffusers. He set them up above the drums (they have mic stand style straight stands) so they'd keep the cymbals out of the room and the room out of the overheads....

colonel kurtz · September 18th, 2007, 01:08 AM

david bottrill also did the PA trick with danny carey on lateralus - i guess he eq'd the toms, then fed them into the PA, which was behind danny's back and facing towards the kit

i've thought about trying something similar myself, but by mic'ing my monitors and recording the tom tracks and compressing/blending with the mix

Deaf Ear · September 18th, 2007, 01:20 AM

Another cool trick with room mics you might want to try is to gate them with a sidechain using the close mics as your key input. This way the room opens up like a natural reverb on every kick, snare or tom hit. I've heard of many people treating their room mics this way. Give it a shot and see if it gives you what you're looking for.

Daunt · September 18th, 2007, 04:24 AM

Shit, I had totally forgot that PA trick! I don't have a great room but if I had I would definately "re-amp" the room mics all the time.

riffmachine · September 26th, 2007, 04:27 PM

Great thread guys. I'm in the mixing stage of my bands first album, and I've been wondering how to treat the room mics. It's my first experience recording and mixing any, and the cymbals were so dominating I'd decided to just ignore the tracks. Thanks for throwing out all the helpful approaches, I'll definitely try some of these compression/eq'ing suggestions. By the way, is it necessary to invert the phase? A friend of mine mentioned I should invert them.

2012 · September 26th, 2007, 05:42 PM

When doing metal, I only use the room mics for an effect.

Automating them to come up in the chorus or bridge, etc. or gating the room mics side-chained to the snare.

greyskull · September 27th, 2007, 12:35 PM

room mics are a tricky one in metal.
in rock, you can go wild, but if your not careful how you do it, the room mics can eat up the clarity of your drum mix

September 17th, 2007, 10:51 AM	#1 (permalink)
Ermz Mix Guideus Authoritus Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 19,937	Room mic question How do you guys process your room mics? My biggest problem is after squashing the crap out of the room mics to fatten them out, I get a ton of cymbals which clash with my overheads... it's not a pretty sound. How do I get that nice fat rock drum ambiance without all the shit? __________________

September 17th, 2007, 12:17 PM	#4 (permalink)
Machinated Senior Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Milton Keynes, UK Posts: 3,663	I low pass at around 2.5kHz, and compress them loads so that I get loads of pumping. I find this gives the drums a nice groove, when mixed in subtley. Sometimes Ill boost the bass loads to get a nice thump, and also playing with the mids can have cool effects on the kit sound. Try boosting and cutting around 600Hz and see what difference it makes. __________________ Ed Sokolowski Follow me on facebook: EAS STUDIOS Follow me on twitter - http://twitter.com/easstudios Drum Quantizing + Reamping available + Production + Mixing - PM me for details

September 17th, 2007, 06:09 PM	#9 (permalink)
Ermz Mix Guideus Authoritus Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 19,937	Cheers guys. So it seems there's really no easy fix. My issue with filtering the room mics so aggressively is that you lose the 'life' of the sound, so to speak. It just sounds like you're playing in some boxy shite room and doesn't give that nice ambiance that you can hear on songs like the start of Porcupine Tree's 'Halo' and Nighrage's 'Elusive Emotion'. __________________

September 18th, 2007, 04:24 AM	#14 (permalink)
Daunt Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Helsinki, Finland Posts: 568	Shit, I had totally forgot that PA trick! I don't have a great room but if I had I would definately "re-amp" the room mics all the time. __________________ Aggressive Drums - The Recording Guide \| eBook out now! Pay what you want!

September 17th, 2007, 11:12 AM	#2 (permalink)
BushmasterM4 Old Fart Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 207	I dont use any room mics. But maybe I should . But Im satified with the sound I get without. Have you tried? I know alot has to do with the room and placement. And thats why I think alot of engineers/producers rely on drumagog when the room dynamics dont go in their favor. Sorry Im not much help.

September 17th, 2007, 11:35 AM	#3 (permalink)
Grave Desire Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Posts: 113	I have been struggling with that same issue. I liked the agressive sound that squashing the room mics gave me..but everytime I blended it in with the rest of the kit the cymbals just are too much. I tried filtering out some of the highs to try to help..but I really didn't like that either. At the end of the day I just didn't compress the room mics as much and blended it in with the rest of the kit until I liked it. Another kind of room mic question...do you guys usually align the room mic with the rest of the kit? It seems like the delay you get with the room mics is what makes that "room" sound, but when you do align it can make the kit sound tighter.

September 17th, 2007, 12:47 PM	#5 (permalink)
botus99 Microphone Assassin Join Date: May 2007 Location: Chicago suburbs Posts: 746	you could maybe try some multiband compression. Compress the hell out of the bass and mids, then leave the high end untouched or with much less compression

September 17th, 2007, 02:19 PM	#7 (permalink)
greyskull Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 5,790	filter the top and bottom off, at 80 hz and a very slow filter at 2-5 k. then the room mics dont interfere with your ohs and kick. also pan them 45-45 or somewhere a lot less wide than your ohs, so theres a bit of space in the stereo image. oh. and squash the living shit out of them. slow attack fast release, high ratio, high threshold. the free ssl lmc is great for this, and... well... free!!

September 17th, 2007, 02:37 PM	#8 (permalink)
Seizure. Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: holland Posts: 2,206	jup.. compress... then compress again.. and then some more.. did i mention distortion? Also.. its cool to have 2 kinds of roommics... 2 condenser/ribbons which you place to capture the whole sound in a good balance, the way it sounds in the room. You take these to compliment your closemics. Then 2 other mics some ALOT further away, facing the walls not the kit to capture reflections, this is your reverb so to speak

September 18th, 2007, 12:00 AM	#11 (permalink)
C_F_H_13 Protools Guru Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Vancouver, B.C. Canada Posts: 1,447	this isn't exactly "budget minded" but you could always go the Soundgarden Superunknown route. They setup a second set of mics on the kick/snare/toms that fed a PA that was BLASTING in the room along with the drums...through the balance towards the actual drums and away from the cymbals. I also read an article about Blink 182's last record, where the producer used those cylinder shaped Diffusers. He set them up above the drums (they have mic stand style straight stands) so they'd keep the cymbals out of the room and the room out of the overheads....

September 18th, 2007, 01:08 AM	#12 (permalink)
colonel kurtz Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 3,967	david bottrill also did the PA trick with danny carey on lateralus - i guess he eq'd the toms, then fed them into the PA, which was behind danny's back and facing towards the kit i've thought about trying something similar myself, but by mic'ing my monitors and recording the tom tracks and compressing/blending with the mix

September 18th, 2007, 01:20 AM	#13 (permalink)
Deaf Ear Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 305	Another cool trick with room mics you might want to try is to gate them with a sidechain using the close mics as your key input. This way the room opens up like a natural reverb on every kick, snare or tom hit. I've heard of many people treating their room mics this way. Give it a shot and see if it gives you what you're looking for.

September 26th, 2007, 04:27 PM	#15 (permalink)
riffmachine Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 64	Great thread guys. I'm in the mixing stage of my bands first album, and I've been wondering how to treat the room mics. It's my first experience recording and mixing any, and the cymbals were so dominating I'd decided to just ignore the tracks. Thanks for throwing out all the helpful approaches, I'll definitely try some of these compression/eq'ing suggestions. By the way, is it necessary to invert the phase? A friend of mine mentioned I should invert them.

September 26th, 2007, 05:42 PM	#16 (permalink)
2012 Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 413	When doing metal, I only use the room mics for an effect. Automating them to come up in the chorus or bridge, etc. or gating the room mics side-chained to the snare.

September 27th, 2007, 12:35 PM	#17 (permalink)
greyskull Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 5,790	room mics are a tricky one in metal. in rock, you can go wild, but if your not careful how you do it, the room mics can eat up the clarity of your drum mix