Andy Sneap & Backstage Productions  

Go Back   Ultimate Metal Forum > Heavy Metal Forums > Andy Sneap > F.O.H.
Register FAQ Donate Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read

F.O.H. Production tips, techniques, tutorials...

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old June 16th, 2008, 02:12 PM   #1 (permalink)
ahjteam
Anssi Tenhunen
 
ahjteam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Virrat/Helsinki, Finland
Posts: 9,397
Sidechaining FAQ

Since this questions seems to pop up sometimes, I decided to do a FAQ from the subject. Tell me if this is not clear enough and I will try to. Hope this tutorial helps you.

WHAT IS SIDECHAINING AND HOW IT WORKS?

In one sentence: Sidechaining is a process where signal B affects signal A.

Longer version: Sidechaining is a method of dynamic range manipulation on devices/plugins, that (usually) do either expanding or compressing to the signal, like compressors and noisegates. Sidechaining requires two signals, signal A and signal B. Sidechaining is the action, where the dynamic range of signal B affects signal A. Signal A is the inputted signal that is being processed, signal B can be "anything".

WHAT TYPES OF SIDECHAINING THERE IS?

Sidechaining can be internal or external.

Internal sidechaining: Most common example of internal sidechain is where signal B is a copy of Signal A, but has a highpass and/or lowpass filter (or another type of filter, called EQ) is applied to signal B and then Signal A is processed from data on the processed signal, signal B. This feature is commonly found on hardware noise gates nowadays (but usually not on the gate-comp-limiter combo units).

External sidechaining: This feature is commonly found on hardware compressors nowadays, even the cheap Behringer ones have them. External sidechaining is where signal B is something else than signal A (it can be a copy of signal A, but don't tell it to the signal processor ).

WHY DO I NEED SIDECHAINING?

The same thing applies here as it does with everything: If you don't really know why you need it without asking someone, then you don't really need it. But here are some examples how you can use it: Ducking, Voiceover, Gating, De-essing and Pumping (remember Eric Prydz - Call On Me? That was sidechaining).

EXAMPLE 1: Internal sidechaining on tomtom-drums
You are mixing a liveshow for a metalband and the drummer has this huge drumkit with two kicks, two snares (you have to have the piccolo!), thirty seven cymbals and 12", 13", 14", 16", 18" and 20" toms. A modest kit for her. You have you favourite drum mics to close mic the toms. They sound awesome alone, but they get a lot of bleed from the cymbals, so you decide that you put a noisegate to the toms.

The first three toms are a no problem, but then you have a problem then it comes to the last two floor toms. The just "boooooooooooom" a lot thru the mics, but you don't want to remove the bottom from the actual sound, because it just sounds AWESOME. You would have to set the threshold so high, that you would only pick up 40% of the hits on those toms if the drummer decides to hit them even slightly lighter than during the soundcheck.

INTERNAL SIDECHAINING TO THE RESCUE! You remove everything below 300-400hz from the sidechain and you can set the threshold a lot lower and still get a lot of dynamics to the play.

EXAMPLE 2: external sidechain on bassdrum and trigger
You have recorded a drummer with the same huge kit in a studio. You notice that the kick mic sounds really good, but it gets huge bleed from rest of the kit. Using just the noise gate would only kill the attack from the sound, but SIDECHAINING AND TRIGGERS TO THE RESCUE! Of course you were a smart engineer and recorded the kick with a trigger too! Right? Don't say you forgot it, you little...

Anyways, because the trigger itself sounds really disgusting, you really cant use it on mix (or actually you can, gives a nice extra click to the kick), but try to adjust the position of the trigger track so that its ~3-5 milliseconds before the actual kick. Then you can use the noise gate so, that the trigger opens the gate on the kick and you wont lose any of the attack. Just remember to adjust the attack and release so that it sounds good.

EXAMPLE 3: Making room for the kick in the subs
You have (again) recorded the same drummer and the tracks were booming, money maker sound! Then you record rest of the band and they sound like gold record too. But when you start to mix the record, you notice that the bass and the kickdrum are battling for the sub-bass area real hard, but you really don't want to lose either of them. SIDECHAINING AND MULTIBAND COMPRESSOR TO THE RESCUE!

Put a multiband compressor to the bass and use only the lowest section of it and put the crossover to 250hz (I suggest you check with a frequency analyzer from the kick-track, how low/high you need to put the crossover, 250 is just an example on this tutorial) and use the kick-track as a sidechain, to make the subs of the bass to duck on the kick beats. Remember to set the attack and release pretty fast, or you might get a bit too much pumping. If you don't have a multiband compressor with a sidechain, a fullband have to do then.

EXAMPLE 4: 80s sound to the snare / more bottom end to the kick
You got yourself a triple platinum from the last band and then the drummers second band comes in to record their band, (too bad) they are really 80s hair metal band, so they don't even want the drums to sound natural, they want that 80s vibe to it. NO WORRIES; SIDECHAINING AND SIGNAL GENERATORS TO THE RESCUE!

You need to make a new bus and you insert a signal generator plugin to it, that can make either white noise or pink noise, pick your poison. TIP: to save yourself from the pain, turn your monitors low or mute/turn the channel volume really low before entering the plugin. Then put a sidechain gate before that and put the snare to open the track and you have that full range 80s "swoosh" snare.

Also if your kick is lacking in the subs, test this same signal generator method on the kick, but use a 50hz sine and kick as the sidechain (again, check the dominant frequency from the kick with a frequency analyzer and use that).

EXAMPLE 5: De-essing the vocals
You recorded the most awesome performance on earth on that particular song. As they say that performance before audio quality, but the quality is HORRIBLE because he didn't use a pop-filter, the hissing is almost intolerateable. NO PROBLEM; SIDECHAINING AND EQ TO THE RESCUE.

Duplicate the vocal track and on the duplicate use an EQ and boost 10dB the most offending frequencies (for example 3k and 5k usually aren't nice) then use it as the sidechain, remember to use very very fast attack and release so that it cuts only the hissing and not anything else.

YOU GOT ME EXCITED AND I WET MYSELF. WHERE CAN I FIND SIDECHAIN HARDWARE AND PLUGINS?

Hardware you can buy from your local audiostores and eBay. For the plugins, see list I compiled here: http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=2664802

See your DAWs manual how to setup and use sidechaining, some have it very easily on the routing (like in Logic and Pro Tools), but for example in Cubase you have to use (quadro-)groups for the (stereo)sidechaining:


Also more on the subject:

http://www.omega-art.com/logic/faq/html/faq22.htm

Last edited by ahjteam : June 20th, 2008 at 01:52 AM.
ahjteam is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old June 16th, 2008, 02:22 PM   #2 (permalink)
garry666
Senior Member
 
garry666's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 388
Good explanation dude. STICKY.
garry666 is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old June 16th, 2008, 03:05 PM   #3 (permalink)
006
Mike G
 
006's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: SATX
Posts: 8,989
Fuckin' golden.

That is all.

~006
006 is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old June 17th, 2008, 05:38 PM   #4 (permalink)
ElektricEyez
Senior Member
 
ElektricEyez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 443
Very good explanations, thank you!

This needs to be a sticky!
ElektricEyez is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old June 17th, 2008, 09:25 PM   #5 (permalink)
Tommy Gun
...might be drunk.
 
Tommy Gun's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: RVA-USA
Posts: 989
Sticky!
__________________
HAMMERHAND AUDIO PRODUCTION
Production/Recording/Editing/Reamping/Mixing/Mastering

hammerhandaudio@gmail.com
Tommy Gun is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old June 18th, 2008, 08:27 AM   #6 (permalink)
Pot
Senior Member
 
Pot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Portugal
Posts: 939
good job
Pot is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old June 19th, 2008, 08:43 AM   #7 (permalink)
SpewChunks
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Wollongong, Australia
Posts: 140
Cheers for this!, nothin' better than some sticky info.
SpewChunks is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old June 19th, 2008, 10:44 AM   #8 (permalink)
Machinated
Senior Member
 
Machinated's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Milton Keynes, UK
Posts: 3,929
Wow, just trying out triggering a gate from a trigger track - really cool stuff! Should have tried this ages ago!
__________________
Ed Sokolowski

Follow me on facebook: EAS STUDIOS

Follow me on twitter - http://twitter.com/easstudios

Drum Quantizing + Reamping available + Production + Mixing - PM me for details
Machinated is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old June 19th, 2008, 10:47 AM   #9 (permalink)
Petrocker
Senior Member
 
Petrocker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Sweden
Posts: 592
Wow, thank you!
__________________

Slice The Cake Facebook
Petrocker is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old June 22nd, 2008, 11:04 PM   #10 (permalink)
JonWormwood
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Jax, Fl
Posts: 3,883
Damn awesome.
JonWormwood is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old June 23rd, 2008, 01:18 AM   #11 (permalink)
Saculus
Senior Member
 
Saculus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 451
Here is the reaper vid for sidechaining.

http://www.cockos.com/wiki/index.php...hannel_Routing
Saculus is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old June 23rd, 2008, 06:11 AM   #12 (permalink)
ahjteam
Anssi Tenhunen
 
ahjteam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Virrat/Helsinki, Finland
Posts: 9,397
and video for Reason:

ahjteam is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old June 24th, 2008, 08:09 PM   #13 (permalink)
beyond dead
heavy metal dad \m/
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: peterborough, ontario, canada
Posts: 2,167
any uses for sidechaining compressor/ limiter on master bus?
__________________
Uses and abuses:

Profire 2626, Saffire Pro 40, ART PRO MPAII, Mac Mini w 2.6 ghz i7 8 gb ram, Logic Pro 9, Focusrite Liquid Mix, M-audio Keyrig 49

Mics:
Shure, Audix, Sennheiser, Audio Technica, Studio Projects, Apex
beyond dead is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old June 25th, 2008, 01:49 PM   #14 (permalink)
ahjteam
Anssi Tenhunen
 
ahjteam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Virrat/Helsinki, Finland
Posts: 9,397
Quote:
Originally Posted by beyond dead View Post
any uses for sidechaining compressor/ limiter on master bus?

But for rock/metal? No.

I also forgot to mention that vocoder is basically a method of sidechaining too.
ahjteam is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old June 28th, 2008, 08:34 AM   #15 (permalink)
lordtech
Senior Member
 
lordtech's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Brunei
Posts: 450
Cool stuff~
how about sidechaining using Sonar? video perhaps...
lordtech is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old June 28th, 2008, 08:41 AM   #16 (permalink)
Metaltastic
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 19,935
Quote:
Originally Posted by ahjteam View Post
Wow, the pumping from the bass drum is incredibly fatiguing and distracting - good example dude. And that video is hot.
Metaltastic is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old July 3rd, 2008, 07:35 PM   #17 (permalink)
ahjteam
Anssi Tenhunen
 
ahjteam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Virrat/Helsinki, Finland
Posts: 9,397
Quote:
Originally Posted by lordtech View Post
Cool stuff~
how about sidechaining using Sonar? video perhaps...
from the cakewalk website: http://www.cakewalk.com/Tips/SONAR7_sidechaining.asp

Any other DAWs that needs coverage?

Last edited by ahjteam : July 5th, 2008 at 10:53 PM.
ahjteam is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old July 10th, 2008, 12:38 AM   #18 (permalink)
colonel kurtz
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,990
man, i don't know if that's the same vid i watched on cubase sidechaining, but if it is, let me put it in a nutshell so that you don't waste 12 minutes of your life stumbling through the video:

1)add a group channel...make it a quadro channel
2)go into the setup menu for the groups - don't remember the keystroke right now 'cause i'm drunk, but you'll want to add 2 child groups - one for L/R, one for Ls/Rs
3)insert a stereo comp. onto the quadro group that accepts sidechain inputs
4)send the key input to Ls/Rs
5)set the output of the track you want to compress to the L/R of the quadro group...now whenever the key input hits, the track being outputted to the quadro will be ducked under it

if i messed any of that up, just let me know and i'll fix it later...and place the blame on seagram's 7
colonel kurtz is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old July 21st, 2008, 04:42 PM   #19 (permalink)
Student
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 120
To the point!
Student is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old July 23rd, 2008, 04:38 PM   #20 (permalink)
ahjteam
Anssi Tenhunen
 
ahjteam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Virrat/Helsinki, Finland
Posts: 9,397
Quote:
Originally Posted by colonel kurtz View Post
man, i don't know if that's the same vid i watched on cubase sidechaining, but if it is, let me put it in a nutshell so that you don't waste 12 minutes of your life stumbling through the video
You could've pressed play and notice that the video was 2:48 long and atleast for me it took me less time to watch the video than to read your explanation. But thanks for the trouble

Last edited by ahjteam : July 24th, 2008 at 02:39 PM.
ahjteam is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old July 25th, 2008, 12:41 AM   #21 (permalink)
colonel kurtz
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,990
i just sort of assumed it was the same vid i watched a while back, which was like 12 mins. long, and really drawn out
colonel kurtz is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old September 13th, 2008, 11:21 PM   #22 (permalink)
Morgan C
MAX LOUD PRESETS»\(░_o)/»
 
Morgan C's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 3,675
Just been experimenting with this today, with bass guitar and kick drums. I'm using Sonar6 so it doesn't look like I can use the above tutorial. I've tried with a number of compressors putting the kick in the Left channel and bass in the Right channel and it sidechains like that, but I seem to always get distortion going on if I set the attack low, and if its high then its useless. How can I avoid this, and can you recommend any free plugins that will work?
Morgan C is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old September 14th, 2008, 11:31 AM   #23 (permalink)
ahjteam
Anssi Tenhunen
 
ahjteam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Virrat/Helsinki, Finland
Posts: 9,397
Quote:
Originally Posted by Morgoe View Post
Just been experimenting with this today, with bass guitar and kick drums. I'm using Sonar6 so it doesn't look like I can use the above tutorial. I've tried with a number of compressors putting the kick in the Left channel and bass in the Right channel and it sidechains like that, but I seem to always get distortion going on if I set the attack low, and if its high then its useless. How can I avoid this, and can you recommend any free plugins that will work?
Set the attack first at 1ms and then add 1-2 ms at a time until it doest clip anymore, then turn down the treshold so that it scoops only like 1-5 dBf off on normal hits. You are not supposed to hear the effect clearly, its just to give room for both of them.

For the plugins, see the first link in the first post. I've used the slim slow slider side chain compressor myself.
ahjteam is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old February 11th, 2009, 10:20 PM   #24 (permalink)
Force666
Fornicator
 
Force666's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Oakland, CA
Posts: 1,097
After watching the cubase sx tutorial it seems as if it is setup for stereo sidechaining. How do you go about setting it up for mono such as compressing the bass keyed with a kick, both mono?

Thanks.
Force666 is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old February 12th, 2009, 04:41 AM   #25 (permalink)
ahjteam
Anssi Tenhunen
 
ahjteam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Virrat/Helsinki, Finland
Posts: 9,397
The same way. The signal he is sending is a mono track sent to the stereo bus of the quad group
ahjteam is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:17 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.0.0
© Copyright 2000-2014 UltimateMetal.com | MetalAges Media