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Old December 21st, 2010, 09:16 PM   #5251 (permalink)
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Because Christianity perpetrated the things I said.
I understand that. My point was merely that it's not a mark against Christianity (or even religion in general) that doesn't also apply to a number of other human institutions (ones which we very well may find highly valuable overall). I'm saying this because a lot of times people point this stuff out about Christianity, or religion in general, to somehow show that it's in some way uniquely evil. But it's not as far as I'm concerned.
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Old December 21st, 2010, 09:19 PM   #5252 (permalink)
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^Agreed.
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Old December 22nd, 2010, 05:46 AM   #5253 (permalink)
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The claim that Christians stole the holidays Christmas and Easter from pagans is an example of either sloppy writing or sloppy thinking. Early Christians appropriated certain traditions and symbols into quite different holidays, which hardly amounts to theft of a holiday. Why does anybody care about this anyway?
I care because of my "religious" beliefs. V5 cares for obviously different reasons, and I agree with your rebuttal to those.

I prefer "co-opted" to stolen, it wasn't stolen since people can still celebrate Winter Solstice and Ishtar/Asherah without throwing on a Jesus topping. Jesus + paganism = paganism, which is one of the reasons I went round and round with V5 about how I can claim to not be a Christian despite believing in "Christ".
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Old December 22nd, 2010, 09:37 AM   #5254 (permalink)
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What does your equation mean?
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Old December 22nd, 2010, 10:04 AM   #5255 (permalink)
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Sorry to venture off-topic, but this is an interesting article:

http://www.thepointmag.com/archive/w...uld-read-marx/

It's from a journal that was started by three doctoral students at UChicago (so don't be startled by the Leftist bias).
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Old December 22nd, 2010, 11:19 AM   #5256 (permalink)
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relevant
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Old December 22nd, 2010, 02:32 PM   #5257 (permalink)
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It doesn't matter unless the salary cap is government imposed. Whatever rules the league agrees on are fine.
Which the Salary Cap is not goverment imposed. It has a idea similar to Keynes
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Old December 22nd, 2010, 03:09 PM   #5258 (permalink)
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relevant
All of that is true, but has nothing to do with the legitimacy of religion or of a holiday.
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Old December 22nd, 2010, 03:16 PM   #5259 (permalink)
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sigh
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Old December 22nd, 2010, 04:36 PM   #5260 (permalink)
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Creatures of epidemic rather than hermeneutics, werewolves tend to be very crude, but then, they don't live as long as deconstructionists.

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Old December 22nd, 2010, 04:42 PM   #5261 (permalink)
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pretty good album
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Old December 22nd, 2010, 04:44 PM   #5262 (permalink)
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Agreed.
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Creatures of epidemic rather than hermeneutics, werewolves tend to be very crude, but then, they don't live as long as deconstructionists.

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Old December 22nd, 2010, 05:23 PM   #5263 (permalink)
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All of that is true, but has nothing to do with the legitimacy of religion or of a holiday.
I thought we were arguing roots of tradition, not legitimacy of religion.
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Old December 22nd, 2010, 09:35 PM   #5264 (permalink)
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I'm saying origins (i.e. roots) have nothing to do with legitimacy.
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Old December 22nd, 2010, 09:38 PM   #5265 (permalink)
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What do you mean by legitimacy? and legitimacy of what?
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Old December 22nd, 2010, 09:51 PM   #5266 (permalink)
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This argument was specifically geared towards holidays; but any aspect of religion.

By "legitimacy" I mean an irrefutable claim to a specific holiday (i.e. no other religion is allowed to practice this holiday). My argument is that since there are multiple religions, and every practicing spiritualist considers his religion the "correct" one, then we have to accept that none of them are "correct." As soon as someone can posit any religion as the one he adheres to and believes in (which we see all the time when someone converts) then we have to admit that no single religion is "correct." Therefore, no holiday is more "correct" than any other. I fail to see how a particular culture can lay claim to a holiday if this is so.

If someone is arguing from within a religion, he would say "You don't have claim to that holiday, because your religion is wrong." Someone outside religion would say that "All these religions are wrong, therefore no one holiday is right."
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Old December 22nd, 2010, 10:00 PM   #5267 (permalink)
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This argument was specifically geared towards holidays; but any aspect of religion.

By "legitimacy" I mean an irrefutable claim to a specific holiday (i.e. no other religion is allowed to practice this holiday). My argument is that since there are multiple religions, and every practicing spiritualist considers his religion the "correct" one, then we have to accept that none of them are "correct." As soon as someone can posit any religion as the one he adheres to and believes in (which we see all the time when someone converts) then we have to admit that no single religion is "correct." Therefore, no holiday is more "correct" than any other. I fail to see how a particular culture can lay claim to a holiday if this is so.

If someone is arguing from within a religion, he would say "You don't have claim to that holiday, because your religion is wrong." Someone outside religion would say that "All these religions are wrong, therefore no one holiday is right."
I believe you missed the point on Christmas entirely.

If you study the chronicaled historical account of the Catholic church, it is well documented that ancient pagan celebrations/holidays were grafted in and given a "Jesus veneer". There is nothing inherently Biblical about Christmas or Easter, and celebrations in the spring and late december time frames date several thousand years prior to the existance of the Catholic church.

That is the point. Specifically regarding the amalgymation of "Jesus" (the "son of YHWH") and pagan religions, this would have directly contradicted instructions from Jesus himself. Since Jesus said he came only to do the will of his Father, and his Father instructed in the OT to learn not the ways of the people you will disposess in Canaan, this would have included the celebration of the winter solstice and spring fertility festival.

Therefore, any claim to those holidays would go in direct contradiction of the orders of the very God supposedly being honored. Yes, Christians are by and large ignorant of their own religious writings, not to mention other religions and their teachings.
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Old December 22nd, 2010, 10:12 PM   #5268 (permalink)
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I don't care that there's nothing inherently Biblical in the traditions of Christmas or Easter. My point is that Christians and pagans making any claim to a holiday is irrelevant regardless of whether or not they stole it from somewhere else.
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Old December 22nd, 2010, 10:14 PM   #5269 (permalink)
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What is irrelevant about a subgroup making a claim to a holiday and accompanying celebratory traditions they created? Irrelevant to what?

Edit: Tacking the birth of Jesus onto the Winter Soltice is the religious equivalent of Apple using a PC with Windows Movie Maker to do a video presentation on Steve Jobs.
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Old December 22nd, 2010, 10:19 PM   #5270 (permalink)
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These holidays mean something entirely different from religion to religion. Even if Christians completely stole Christmas from the tradition of the winter solstice and Saturnalia, it means something very different for Christians than it did for pagans. For the pagans to say to the Christians (if they were still around and gave a shit) "You can't have that holiday, it's ours; you stole it from us!" is completely irrelevant because the Christians would say it's their holiday. These two very different cultures are playing two different language games and are arguing for the wrong reasons. Once we step back and observe that neither is correct, there is no relevance in laying claim to the holiday. They're the same holiday, and at the same time two very different holidays. And they belong to no one.
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Old December 22nd, 2010, 10:29 PM   #5271 (permalink)
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What is irrelevant about a subgroup making a claim to a holiday and accompanying celebratory traditions they created? Irrelevant to what?

Edit: Tacking the birth of Jesus onto the Winter Soltice is the religious equivalent of Apple using a PC with Windows Movie Maker to do a video presentation on Steve Jobs.
To further explain this in the light of "legitimacy":

Yes, you could actually make a video presentation on Steve Jobs with Windows Movie Maker. But it would be an affront to everything that is Steve Jobs. This is the same effect/outcome that tacking Jesus onto the Winter Solstice creates.

Christianity as it stands currently, and has stood since 300ishAD on, has nothing to do with the Bible, and everything to do with the latest writing from some guy in a fancy suit, which is why I don't claim the title. It is by FAR, the most hypocritical of all religions.
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Old December 22nd, 2010, 10:48 PM   #5272 (permalink)
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If Christianity is hypocritical, it's because it contradicts its own internal workings and laws. I'm not arguing anything about internal workings. I'm saying as the ideology of Christianity stands (both now and in 300 AD), it signifies something entirely different from pagan ideology, regardless of whether or not they stole anything.
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Old December 23rd, 2010, 12:59 AM   #5273 (permalink)
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Who cares it's all mystic bullshit anyway!

NEXT!

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101223/...ys_in_military

Down with homophobia!
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Old December 23rd, 2010, 07:56 AM   #5274 (permalink)
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If Christianity is hypocritical, it's because it contradicts its own internal workings and laws. I'm not arguing anything about internal workings. I'm saying as the ideology of Christianity stands (both now and in 300 AD), it signifies something entirely different from pagan ideology, regardless of whether or not they stole anything.
I agree, but amalgymating with other religion's practices is part of the hypocrisy because doing so contradicts it's own internal workings and laws (assuming the Bible is supposed to be it's sole source of direction.)

@Jimmy: US military preeminance was already waning. This will merely hasten it's slide into mediocrity.
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Old December 23rd, 2010, 03:12 PM   #5275 (permalink)
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Preeminence was and still is waning according to you and now that I can join the military as a openly gay human being it's going to increase to the systems mediocrity? Do you think before you speak?

Dak, you have a lot of knowledge but I think you apply it carelessly. Your concepts are so far behind it's actually quite repulsive.
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