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Old April 30th, 2009, 03:51 PM   #1951 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Mathišs View Post
Well Bush told the CIA that what they were doing was legal so no action can be taken really
Right, so even though Bush clearly lied, no one was obligated to speak up about it. Great argument there.
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Old April 30th, 2009, 04:04 PM   #1952 (permalink)
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Up yours, religious bigots:

Quote:
Social Conservatives Blast Hate-Crime Bill, Saying It Will Limit Free Speech

By James Osborne
FOXNews.com
Thursday, April 30, 2009

A Senate hate crimes bill that would extend federal protection to gay and transgender victims is rousing the ire of social conservatives who say their right to free speech will be jeopardized if it becomes law.

"In and of itself this law can be applied to speech. The nature of assault -- putting someone in fear of their safety -- what will that mean for someone preaching against homosexuality?" said Mathew Staver, founder of the Liberty Council, a law firm that works on religious freedom cases.

"It elevates homosexuality to the same protective category as race. It's all part of the radical homosexual anarchist agenda," Staver said.

For much of the last decade gay rights activists have been fighting for inclusion within the federal hate crimes law, which places greater penalties on crimes that are committed based on race, ethnicity and religion. Social conservatives, including former President George W. Bush, have fought the legislation on the grounds it could be used to prosecute religious groups who say homosexuality is morally wrong.

But with Democrats now controlling both houses of Congress and the White House, gay rights activists are confident the law will pass and President Obama will sign it. The bill passed the House of Representatives on Wednesday, 249-175.

"This is one of the most supportive environments we've had," said Thomas Howard, Jr., programs director for the Matthew Shepard Foundation, an advocacy group named for the gay University of Wyoming student whose 1998 murder became a rallying point for homosexuals.

"The issue is when someone is targeted as a direct result of who they are. This isn't about telling people what they can and can not say."

Frederick Lawrence, a law professor at George Washington University, said there is nothing within the language of the hate crimes bill that would allow for the prosecution of individuals who simply speak out against a particular sexual or ethnic group.

"The only language that would be criminalized is language that would be meet the requirements of conspiracy or solicitation or direct incitement," he said. "Sharing opinions on things, even opinions others consider discriminatory, can not be criminalized."

But that is doing little to calm conservative bloggers, who are outraged by the possibility that a suspect acquitted of a crime in state court can be retried in federal court if the case becomes categorized as a hate crime.

"That is true and it's not unique to the hate crimes arena," said Lawrence. "There is an exception to double jeopardy called the dual sovereignty doctrine. But the Department of Justice has a very strict set of regulations when they can retry someone."

During the debate on the House floor Wednesday, Rep. Virginia Foxx, R-N.C., angered gay rights activists by claiming Shepard was murdered in a robbery, and not because he was gay.

"(The) hate crimes bill was named for him, but it's really a hoax that that continues to be used as an excuse for passing these bills," Foxx said.

The congresswoman later apologized, calling the word hoax "a poor choice of words," according to The Associated Press.

In 2004 the ABC television news program 20/20 ran a story in which Shepard's murderers said they killed the 21-year-old for drugs and money in a robbery gone wrong, and not because he was gay -- contradicting the testimony of some witnesses at his murder trial.

The piece went on to portray Shepard as a troubled individual and included an interview with a Wyoming police detective who said he believed the murder was not based on Shepard's sexual orientation.

"It's something we hear quite a bit," Howard said. "I'd like to ask (Foxx) if she has read the trial transcript. Certain individuals completely changed their stories."
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009...t-free-speech/
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Old May 1st, 2009, 02:26 AM   #1953 (permalink)
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The real issue is that there shouldn't be hate crime laws in the first place.
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Old May 1st, 2009, 02:58 AM   #1954 (permalink)
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Pretty much... every crime is a hate crime. The reason for that hate should not come in to play in the punishment.
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Old May 1st, 2009, 11:02 AM   #1955 (permalink)
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Yeah, those are some pretty sketchy laws.
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Old May 1st, 2009, 11:07 AM   #1956 (permalink)
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I agree. Legislation should be aimed at people's actions not their thoughts.

Some good new from Sweden, gay marriage is now legal there. Way to go guys! Runk and I can finally make it official.
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Old May 1st, 2009, 11:30 AM   #1957 (permalink)
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Old May 2nd, 2009, 11:27 AM   #1958 (permalink)
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The real issue is that there shouldn't be hate crime laws in the first place.
.
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Old May 2nd, 2009, 12:04 PM   #1959 (permalink)
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I think I might have swine flu.
I've broken out in rashers.

I called the helpline, but unfortunately all I got was crackling.
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Old May 3rd, 2009, 07:45 AM   #1960 (permalink)
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I made a joke a bit like that to a colleague at work. I said it was a bit "rasher" of the Egyptians to cull all their pigs. He didn't get it.
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Old May 3rd, 2009, 12:12 PM   #1961 (permalink)
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Americans buy enough guns to outfit Chinese and Indian armies so far in 2009
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Old May 3rd, 2009, 12:14 PM   #1962 (permalink)
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good job obama!
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Old May 4th, 2009, 01:54 AM   #1963 (permalink)
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That's fucked up
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Old May 4th, 2009, 05:10 AM   #1964 (permalink)
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awesome
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Old May 4th, 2009, 05:22 AM   #1965 (permalink)
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Y SO SWN FLU?
the pork knight starring beef ledger
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Old May 4th, 2009, 07:11 AM   #1966 (permalink)
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I bought 2
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Old May 4th, 2009, 10:36 AM   #1967 (permalink)
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Damn it can't you people think about the poor Indian and Chinese armies that are going without guns this year because of you?
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Old May 4th, 2009, 10:54 AM   #1968 (permalink)
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U GOT THE FLU OVER IN THE USA BRUVS ???????????????????
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Old May 5th, 2009, 01:47 AM   #1969 (permalink)
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This happened in NC, and I grew up watching this station/anchorman-woman.Kind of chilling:

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Old May 5th, 2009, 07:08 AM   #1970 (permalink)
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didnt Ben Franklin say something like...
Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.
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Old May 5th, 2009, 10:56 AM   #1971 (permalink)
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http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090505/...xHmzJNQbN0bBAF
Quote:
UK 'unwelcome' list bars 22 alleged extremists

Delicious Digg Facebook Fark Newsvine Reddit StumbleUpon Technorati Yahoo! Bookmarks Print Play Video Mideast Video:Islamic Jihad, Hamas ally -- and sometimes rival AFP Play Video Mideast Videoefense Begins Case In Trial For Oral Surgeon KDKA Pittsburgh Play Video Mideast Video:Budget-friendly fun: Dr. Jazz KMOV Channel 4 St. Louis By NANCY ZUCKERBROD, Associated Press Writer Nancy Zuckerbrod, Associated Press Writer – 29 mins ago
LONDON – For the first time, Britain on Tuesday published a list of people barred from entering the country for allegedly fostering extremism or hatred, including Muslim extremists, a right-wing American radio host, an Israeli settler and jailed Russian gang members.

Home Secretary Jacqui Smith said she decided to publish the names of 16 of 22 people who have been banned by the government since October so others could better understand what sort of behavior Britain was not prepared to tolerate. She cited unidentified "public interest" reasons for not disclosing the other six names.

"I think it's important that people understand the sorts of values and sorts of standards that we have here, the fact that it's a privilege to come and the sort of things that mean you won't be welcome in this country," Smith told GMTV.

Popular American talk-radio host, Michael Savage, who broadcasts from San Francisco and has called the Muslim holy book, the Quran, a "book of hate" is on the list. Savage also has enraged parents of children with autism by saying in most cases it's "a brat who hasn't been told to cut the act out."

The list includes Americans Stephen "Don" Black, founder of a Florida-based white supremacist Web site, and anti-gay preacher Fred Phelps, who leads a church in Topeka, Kansas.

The British government previously acknowledged that Phelps was banned. His daughter, Shirley Phelps-Roper, also was banned. The pair have picketed the funerals of AIDS victims and claimed the deaths of U.S. soldiers are a punishment for tolerance of homosexuality.

Yunis Al-Astal, a Hamas lawmaker in Gaza, and Egyptian cleric Safwat Hijazi are on the list. So is Israeli settler Mike Guzovsky, who Britain's Home Office said was involved with military training camps.

Artur Ryno and Pavel Skachevsky, two leaders of a Russian gang, are barred from entering Britain. They were imprisoned for 10 years in Russia last year for their role in racially motivated killings of 19 people.
this crosses a freedom of speech line me thinks. and the UK definitely recognizes freedom of speech

even though i find phelps to be a complete fuck head, he still has a right to say what he wants, and travel where he wants. im sure there are fuckheads like him living in the UK too. there are certainly islamic fanatics in the UK too, something they cant seem to control.

however, i'm glad someone is recognizing guys like phelps are religious extremists. wasnt there a US gov. report that detailed US organizations that could breed terrorists? many of them were evangelical christian groups. just something i heard on talk radio one morning on the shuttle
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Old May 5th, 2009, 11:12 AM   #1972 (permalink)
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here it is:
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...sm-dictionary/
Quote:
Homeland agency pulled back extremism dictionary
Black power, white supremacists, abortion foes make list
By Audrey Hudson (Contact) | Tuesday, May 5, 2009

The same Homeland Security Department office that categorized veterans as potential terrorists issued an earlier report that defined dozens of "extremists" ranging from black power activists to abortion foes. The report was nixed within hours and recalled from state and local law enforcement officials.

Whites and blacks, Christians and Jews, Cubans and Mexicans, along with tax-hating Americans were among several political leanings listed in the "Domestic Extremism Lexicon" that came out of the Office of Intelligence and Analysis (I&A) in late March.

The lexicon lists definitions for key terms and phrases used by Homeland Security analysts "that addresses the nature and scope of the threat that domestic, non-Islamic extremism poses to the United States," the report said.

Black separatism was defined as a movement that they said advocates the establishment of a separate nation within the U.S., and its members "advocate or engage in criminal activity and plot acts of violence directed toward local law enforcement" to advance their goals. Black power is a "term used by black separatists to describe their pride in, and the perceived superiority of the black race," the report said.

Under the listing "antiabortion extremism," the lexicon cites a movement that "advocates violence against providers of abortion-related services." It notes that some people in the movement "cite various racist and anti-Semitic beliefs to justify their criminal activities."

"The lexicon was not an authorized I&A product, and it was recalled as soon as management discovered it had been released without authorization," said Amy Kudwa, Homeland Security spokeswoman.

"This product is not, nor was it ever, in operational use," Ms. Kudwa said.

Rep. Peter T. King, New York Republican and ranking member of the House Homeland Security Committee, said the report "causes further concern that Congress needs to get to the bottom of exactly how DHS determines what intelligence products to distribute to law enforcement officials around the country."
the lexicon PDF:
http://video1.washingtontimes.com/video/lexicon.pdf
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Old May 5th, 2009, 11:19 AM   #1973 (permalink)
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Personally I think targeting/labeling "extremism" is dangerous. Who gets to define what is "extreme"? What is "extreme" to you might not be to me and vice vs. I would say the majority gets to decide what is extreme, but in the cases I see, it is the government that gets to decide what is extreme. What if listening to metal is soon on the list of "violent extremist tendency indicators"?

You shouldn't be able to list and target/punish someone for voicing their opinion.
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Old May 5th, 2009, 11:29 AM   #1974 (permalink)
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having an opinion isnt an issue, identifying groups who use violence to force their opinion on others is

domestic terrorism, specifically against abortion clinics and enviromental targets has long been a sore topic for the US. we need to admit that it has happened and will probably continue to happen.

i do agree that deciding who decides who is an extremist and who isnt is a sticking point. the obvious answer is the president though. not his sub agencies, but his desk himself
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Old May 5th, 2009, 11:34 AM   #1975 (permalink)
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the obvious answer is the Supreme Court

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