Fest Attendance: Successful vs. Fun

[Inazone]

Having attended two Minneapolis Mayhems, two Flight of the Valkyries and one Heathen Crusade, it seems like the comments are always the same for these types of small festivals:

"Too bad the attendance sucked, because it was a lot of fun."

It makes me wonder if the issue is the lack of a local audience, underground bands rather than mainstream, economic/travel factors, or just widespread lack of interest. Obviously, lack of attendance hurts the financial outcome, but "commercial" acts would cost more (more upfront risk) and seem to go against the very spirit of these events. Is Minnesota too far out of the way for anyone except the most dedicated metalheads to even consider attending? Would the overall good time be compromised by making it a larger-scale event with more mainstream bands?

The reason I ask is that Station 4 was packed at the Amon Amarth/Ensiferum/Belphegor/The Absence show not long before HC3. Amon Amarth is the only band on that bill that I would consider to have any particular draw in a small metro area like Minneapolis/St. Paul, so a somewhat more mediocre turnout could have been expected for the same show with Ensiferum or Belphegor headlining. I wasn't at the Paganfest date here, so I don't know how ticket sales were for that, but is it reasonable to assume that an event on the same level of Heathen Crusade (be it HC4 or something else) isn't EVER going to reach what most people would consider amazing attendance? Is Minnesota simply not an enticing enough destination for any but the absolute diehards?

I like being able to see a bunch of new (to me) bands, navigate the venue with ease and not wait in line half an hour for a beer or a piss . . . but I'm also not the guy having to go over the numbers at the end of the festival. Personally, I'd love to be able to just assume that this kind of thing can happen every year without reason to doubt.

[JayKeeley]

HC has done everything to avoid the commercial route, so that's why you only get the die hard fans showing up

That said, Minneapolis locals seem to be adrift. I was at Iced Earth the night before HC and aside from the fact that they could only play Station 4 (in NYC they played the Nokia Theater in Times Square), I doubt those fans had much interest in HC.

Metal Blade have done everything to commercialize Amon Amarth (MTV rotation, metal blade tour support, bobble-headed toys) so at this point they attract the same folks into the current trend of NWOJFM (Nu Wave of Jolly Folk Metal) -- Eleuvetie, Wintersun etc, that's why they get a large audience.

The HC promoters need to keep doing things EXACTLY THE SAME*. Pick the right bands, stay underground, get those artists hungry to play the US, and the die hard fans will travel in from all 4 corners.






* except raise ticket prices. (Seriously John, those tickets need to be $80 each. If you build it, they will come.)

[Will Bozarth]

I'd have no problem paying $80... shit, I paid $250!

[Dark One]

Agreed with JK on all counts as well as the raising of ticket prices (as many others have suggested as well). It seems that the diehard fanbase is going nowhere and if that's going to continue to be the market this fest serves I can't imagine the majority not being willing to shell out an extra $40-$50 for tickets to help out. Hell, the majority of costs for most folks attending consists of airfare/hotel room/festival merch/cd's/alcohol, etc., so spending a little more for festival tickets isn't going to break the deal for the majority of attendees.

In addition, interest in the Heathen/Pagan/Viking metal scene is growing, so that should help as well (just please don't water the festival down by booking the more "trendy" bands in the genre).

Jason

[JayKeeley]

Exactly. Maintain the current audience and just compensate for low attendance by increasing ticket prices.

[Ars Magna]

To be honest, I also think that the lack of local support in that area adds to it. Of course I don't know the location of everyone that was there but, for the most part, everyone I spoke to was from somewhere else. The only people I knew that were local was Todd Is Myth, the organizers, a couple of my friends that were there Friday only, and the bands and their friends/family. I lived the first 26 or so years of my life in Mpls and the scene has ALWAYS been hit and miss. Hell...the Watain tour attracted only about 20 people. Sure...it's underground, but still. That is HORRIBLE. We had more people than that at the Frostmoon Eclipse show and they are nowhere near as popular as Watain. Personally, I think a show of this magnitude should have at least 2 local bands per day. Local bands bring in their buddies...even if it is only for that day. Their buddies drink, possibly buy merch, etc. If you don't have a solid draw for a headliner, you should beef up the local support. Of course this isn't a guaranteed equation but, more often than not, it works.

While I agree, for the most part, with raising the ticket prices, you also have to be sure you don't price yourself out of people showing up. For those from out of town, they will generally go both days. The locals will have a totally different take. My local friends that were there Friday probably wouldn't have come had it been much more. They were there for Inquisition and had no interest in the other bands. It's a difficult spot to be in.

Regardless, I think they did a fantastic job with the fest.

[Dmanx Pit]

A change in location of the fest to a bigger city such as New York will guarantee it'll sell out, but at the same time it'll jack the price of holding it through the roof so it's not sensible at all. besides, I like traveling to Minnesota for it.

I have said in the past bringing in a semi-huge band would definitely boost attendance, but you'd have to be careful who that band is or you may lose the people that would travel. After all, why would I go all the way out to MN to see Amon Amarth unless there was a massively strong under card for the fest (Though the partying alone may change my mind :P ).

Selfishly, I think the fest is flawless right now cause all the posers stay home. The fest isn't dumbed down to attract more people, but rather attracts the people with the highest expectations with no patience to sit through awful bands just to get to 1 or 2 you like. But at the same time I wouldn't mind if the organizers brought in a commercial element only if it means the fest will go on bigger and better the following year.

[Climb Thar Hill]

What Ali & Dmanx are saying


+1Million

[Dark One]

What Mike is saying


+1Billion

[Inazone]

I guess I'm glad that (so far) people are responding as they are. Local support for underground bands is and probably always will be weak. The same is true of support for hometown bands too, unless they are playing what is currently the trendy style, which in this case is something with chug-chug breakdowns . . . metalcore or whatever you choose to call it. A few years ago, you couldn't walk through a music store or bar without running into someone in a nu-metal, grindcore or "brutal" death metal band. Now it's 90% metalcore, at least as far as the bands that are actually getting gigs and putting out recorded material. There is certainly no support of the more obscure metal subgenres on commercial radio or in the local newsrags. The only local support now is a few loyal metalheads, a couple of sponsors, and Steve at Station 4. If not for those, John and other promoters are going to have nowhere to go with these shows.

Now that I've witnessed a Heathen Crusade for myself, I can appreciate why even Under Eden wasn't to the like of some people, but we have at least tried to have some "compatible" songs ready for such an opportunity. Grand Demise of Civilization is (in my opinion) the best local band at this time, and they've only been around (with this name, playing black metal) for a matter of months. We did a show with them and Martriden a few months ago, and as one would expect, attendance was next to nothing. Across town, local metalcore bands are getting as big an audience for their third in-town show in a month as HC3 did over two days. (For what it's worth, I'm not bitter about other bands getting better turnouts than my own. More power to `em, but I don't think they're going to find the same kind of support in other markets.)

Adding one or two more locals might make sense, but they should be scattered throughout the schedule. Local opener each day, and maybe another halfway through the second day. Or maybe more regional bands, from somewhere just far away enough that most local folks haven't already seen them. Velnias was a great example of that, making the drive from Chicago. Not sure what bands are available from Wisconsin, Iowa or the Dakotas, but throw a couple of them on too. What *won't* work is having a local-heavy show. Under Eden also played John's Minneapolis Mayhem 3 festival a few years back. After that one, he said "no more" but still ended up doing MM4 with more emphasis on local bands. Turnout was awful. The local crowd doesn't want to see more hometown bands for their money, but most of them also aren't all that supportive of the out-of-town and international acts if they haven't already been oversaturating MTV.

In other words, I don't think very much consideration should be wasted on the local metal crowd, because those of them who care at all are already virtually guaranteed to attend. What might be better is more advertising directed toward more "cultural" outlets. If you have a festival dedicated to pagan, folk and (stereotypical) European metal, there must be someplace to promote it that might get ignored by the typical flyering tactics. Some of those outlets might even lead to some sponsorship resources that have been overlooked.

[Climb Thar Hill]

huh

[Reign in Acai]

The die-hards who didn't sponsor this year simply need to get on board come next winter. The sponsorship thread witnessed a good dozen replies, but only a handful of those who pledged actually put forth the monies. I'm contemplating contributing $500 this year for the free alcohol. 1 drink every 15 minutes = 60 free drinks in two days. 60 x $4 = $240, the difference in sponsorship packages pays for it self.

[Will Bozarth]

I definitely plan on the $500 sponsorship.

[WhiteBeastofWotan]

its funny because you don't even like any of the bands

[Will Bozarth]

not knowing doesn't equal not liking. there weren't any bands this year that I didn't find to be bad. I enjoy the overall atmosphere, too.

I'll be sponsoring for Chicago Powerfest, and no bands were announced yet. I do it to help the fest out, because it was a fantastic time both years that I went.

[Ars Magna]

Originally Posted by Will Bozarth

I'll be sponsoring for Chicago Powerfest, and no bands were announced yet. I do it to help the fest out, because it was a fantastic time both years that I went.

This is the spirit we tried to retain with the Milwaukee Metalfest back in the day. There was a group of us from across the Midwest that went every year despite the line-up. We went about 6 years running. This was, of course, before it went to shit. It was worth the trip to see a few good bands, a couple of decent ones, and a gang of friends you only saw at that show each year. Things have certainly changed since then with fest popping up all over the place, but I certainly admire your dedication!!!!!!!!!

[Dmanx Pit]

Originally Posted by Ars Magna

This is the spirit we tried to retain with the Milwaukee Metalfest back in the day. There was a group of us from across the Midwest that went every year despite the line-up. We went about 6 years running. This was, of course, before it went to shit

I was actually just talking about this fest with friends the other day. Crazy to look back and see how many bands moved on to huge careers, yet started out only being able to play the US by going to that festival.

[Ars Magna]

Originally Posted by Dmanx Pit

I was actually just talking about this fest with friends the other day. Crazy to look back and see how many bands moved on to huge careers, yet started out only being able to play the US by going to that festival.

Indeed. Some of the line-ups he gathered were unreal. It really was an amazing event for several years. AND they served gigantic turkey legs.

[JayKeeley]

Now that I've witnessed a Heathen Crusade for myself, I can appreciate why even Under Eden wasn't to the like of some people, but we have at least tried to have some "compatible" songs ready for such an opportunity.

To be fair, you had a tough spot on the roster. I hate to say this, but in all honesty, the first band on the second day is almost a 'throwaway' band. People aren't in the venue yet, they're running slow and hungover from the night before...that said, some of us made the effort to see Manetheren last year and they were musically very good, but the turnout was poor for the reasons I've stated. Had they played further up the schedule, I think they would have been more widely appreciated.

Originally Posted by Inazone

Local support for underground bands is and probably always will be weak. The same is true of support for hometown bands too, unless they are playing what is currently the trendy style

Grand Demise of Civilization is (in my opinion) the best local band at this time, and they've only been around (with this name, playing black metal) for a matter of months. We did a show with them and Martriden a few months ago, and as one would expect, attendance was next to nothing.

The local crowd doesn't want to see more hometown bands for their money, but most of them also aren't all that supportive of the out-of-town and international acts if they haven't already been oversaturating MTV.

Let's face facts: for all the anecdotal reasons you've stated, the local scene in Minneapolis sucks. John has an uphill struggle no matter what he does. For whatever reason, underground metal just doesn't work there.

In other words, I don't think very much consideration should be wasted on the local metal crowd, because those of them who care at all are already virtually guaranteed to attend.

Well said. I could not agree more.

Heathen Crusade is less about geography and more about the die hard fans making an annual pilgrimage to quite possibly the most exclusive festival in the states. NOBODY else is paying as much attention to the pagan metal scene, and likewise, the fans appreciate it which in turn drives that sense of camaradarie.

If you look at ProgPower, it's essentially the same 2000 people turning up each year. Each ticket costs $100+ and sells out within 48 hours. Nobody complains about the cost of ticket or length of journey, they make the effort. Many of them are gold badge holders, and several others sponsor bands with their own cash for little in return.

Again, in my opinion, HC should follow suit and focus on its existing smaller audience and ensure the same folks attend each year by picking those 'cult' bands we're all willing to make the journey for. I am near-certain the existing fanbase will pay 3 times the amount for each ticket saving John from having to pick the likes of Amoney Amarth or worry about local turnout.

[skyrefuge]

This is a really good thread.

Originally Posted by Dmanx Pit

I was actually just talking about this fest with friends the other day. Crazy to look back and see how many bands moved on to huge careers, yet started out only being able to play the US by going to that festival.

Yeah! Wow, it's so rare to hear respect for the Milwaukee Metalfest. For a long time I've meant to write up a wikipedia entry about it, because I think most people don't really realize how important it was. It did most of its business during metal's "dead" period (mid- to late-90s), so really only a small percentage of today's metal fans even know much about it. And those who do, know only "Jack Koshick ripoff asshole" or "two stages divided by a curtain in New Jersey", which is certainly true, but despite that it was basically the only bridge that linked metal's heyday in the 80s with its resurgence at the turn of the millennium. It essentially put itself out of business by hosting the US debuts of In Flames, Opeth, Children of Bodom, etc., because once those bands got that foothold and started touring regularly, there was no reason to go to a shitty fest in Milwaukee to see them.

And so that's a bit of a concern for HC now too, with the whole Pagan Fest dynamic...if people can see Primordial in their hometown, will they continue to travel to see them? Though maybe it's a promotional opportunity too: "Like Primordial? If you had been at Heathen Crusade, you could have bragged to your friends how you saw them 3 years ago. HC4: come see the next kings of pagan metal, before they jump the shark and have their merch for sale at Hot Topic".

Originally Posted by JayKeeley

To be fair, you had a tough spot on the roster. I hate to say this, but in all honesty, the first band on the second day is almost a 'throwaway' band.

Though this year was much better than HC2, probably due to the later start time. There really weren't any bands who played while tumbleweeds were rolling through the venue, as there unfortunately were for Manetheren's otherwise-great set.

Originally Posted by JayKeeley

Let's face facts: for all the anecdotal reasons you've stated, the local scene in Minneapolis sucks.

Can you really say that it's any worse than any other US metropolitan area of a similar size? MSP is the 16th-largest metro area in the country. Would Heathen Crusade really draw more (or even be possible) in San Diego (17th), St. Louis (18th) or even Phoenix (13th)? I just don't get the feeling that the people of MSP are substantially less "metal" than the people anywhere else, per capita. How many other cities had both an Earl Root (Root of All Evil) and Don Decker (Nightfall Records)?

Again, in my opinion, HC should follow suit and focus on its existing smaller audience and ensure the same folks attend each year by picking those 'cult' bands we're all willing to make the journey for. I am near-certain the existing fanbase will pay 3 times the amount for each ticket saving John from having to pick the likes of Amoney Amarth or worry about local turnout.

Agreed, the ProgPower model seems like it would be a good one to follow here, though that's essentially what it's been doing anyway. It might even be easier in some respects, because there are more bands to choose from (both because the fest hasn't gone through as many bands, and the audience is probably a bit more stylistically open-minded). But Glenn does rely on locals (or expensive big-name bands) to get the sellouts, because his "core", while strong, is definitely not the required 1100. So while I agree with the "raise ticket prices!" idea, I'm still a little hesitant without knowing complete details of the HC demographics. Those of us posting on this forum are certainly more biased towards being more dedicated and spending more money, and maybe that causes us to overestimate the amount to which others feel the same way. I wouldn't want to see John say "yeah, we're doing HC4, and taking your advice to triple the ticket prices", and then have 40 people show up.

Neil

[Dark One]

Originally Posted by skyrefuge

Those of us posting on this forum are certainly more biased towards being more dedicated and spending more money, and maybe that causes us to overestimate the amount to which others feel the same way. I wouldn't want to see John say "yeah, we're doing HC4, and taking your advice to triple the ticket prices", and then have 40 people show up.

While I completely understand what you're saying here, and while there may be a bit of overstating based on the diehards that frequent the forum, I honestly wouldn't worry too much about it if I were John based on what I stated earlier:

Originally Posted by Dark One

Hell, the majority of costs for most folks attending consists of airfare/hotel room/festival merch/cd's/alcohol, etc., so spending a little more for festival tickets isn't going to break the deal for the majority of attendees.

I simply can't imagine $75 ticket prices being a deal breaker for those who spend so much more just for travel, lodging and non-band entertainment/sustenance for the weekend. I think this is especially true now that the die hard (and mostly non-local) fanbase is more or less wholly established.

Jason

[War Ensemble]

Originally Posted by skyrefuge

This is a really good thread.

I agree

Originally Posted by skyrefuge

I just don't get the feeling that the people of MSP are substantially less "metal" than the people anywhere else, per capita.

Thanks!

Originally Posted by skyrefuge

How many other cities had both an Earl Root (Root of All Evil) and Don Decker (Nightfall Records)?

Do we want to take credit for Decker?

[JayKeeley]

Originally Posted by skyrefuge

So while I agree with the "raise ticket prices!" idea, I'm still a little hesitant without knowing complete details of the HC demographics.

Some rough numbers:

HC Total Headcount: ~250
Rooms booked at Holiday Inn under "HC fest rate": ~105

On average, I would say there are 2 people per room [minimum]. So let's go with 210 folks who travel in to see HC.

Yeah, you can probably give and take some numbers. Perhaps there are locals who choose to stay at the hotel. There's a whole slew of permutations here.

Assuming Jason's logic is correct -- that is, people who book flights, hotels, etc aren't going to bat an eyelid at paying $80 per ticket -- those 40 or so locals who aren't willing to fork out extra are hereby redundant.

And the truth is, some locals will pay the higher price, so we won't even lose all 40 but for arguments sake:

210 * $80 = $16,800

versus

250 * $30 = $7,500

(Was it $30 per ticket? I don't know since I sponsored.)

Either way, HC thrives on its out of towners. It's practically a private party at this point.

[Inazone]

Originally Posted by JayKeeley

Either way, HC thrives on its out of towners. It's practically a private party at this point.

Although I'm sure that any festival promoter would prefer to envision something on a larger scale, I think the private party environment is the way to go for metal. The people that attend are (usually) far more passionate about the music and sense of community than most other genres. The fact that some would even sponsor bands demonstrates that. Hell, if not for some changes in my own living situation (having to take on another roommate) I was going to offer to host a band or some show-goers at my house, just to save someone the cost of a hotel and cab fare. Oh well, maybe next year.

Like I was mentioning in another thread, I'm sure there are some untapped sponsor ideas, opportunities for authentic food, and perhaps more "community involvement" options that could add to the experience . . . and maybe the attendance levels.

[skyrefuge]

Originally Posted by JayKeeley

Rooms booked at Holiday Inn under "HC fest rate": ~105

Ah, ok, that's the exact sort of demographic data I would be looking for as an organizer. I had no idea the hotel was that well-used for HC. Then yeah, raising ticket prices probably won't have too much of effect on attendance; my main doubt was "how many HCers are really out-of-towners?", not "would out-of-towners be willing to pay a higher ticket price?" And you can even count at at least 3 out-of-town rebels like me who stayed at other hotels!

Originally Posted by JayKeeley

210 * $80 = $16,800

versus

250 * $30 = $7,500

Even that big dollar number is still frightfully small when divided across all the performers.

Originally Posted by War Ensemble

Do we want to take credit for Decker?

I mainly give him credit for opening a Nightfall Records store in Chicago in the late 90s, which was a great place to hang out, likely because Decker was 400 miles away most of the time.

Neil