Daniel's live drumming

[The Incision]

My question is about why the hell Daniel speeds up so much while playing live? I mean you'll hear a really slow intro (ex. paris bootleg - Tonight's music)..then you'll hear this super fast count off speeding up a tempo of about maybe 120 to 150 or so. That is not the signs of a great drummer, though he gets the job done quite nice in the studio (minus the fact his kick drums had no definition on VE)he just seems to be a real REAL letdown live.

[Cerulean]

I've seen some signs of him not being such a great drummer as well. I saw em playing Ghost of the Sun and he had difficult times playing the double bass parts, all pulling faces and that. I'm quite sure that Jonas is/was a better drummer.

[ucsbdude]

Ypu guys think they should get a new drummer ? This is a question from someone who has never seen them live, so I don't know anything concerning their live material. Whats your guys opinion?

[Cerulean]

Well look, he's not BAD you know. I just feel there are drummers around that could put more feeling into it. Oh and that can handle the double bass better.

[Erik]

Maybe he's never done double bass before VE. LFDGD had none of it and the impression I get is that he's not really a traditional "metal" drummer. Cut him some slack.

Having said that, though, from the MP3's I've heard I must say his performance on pre-Tonight's Decision stuff is sometimes less than perfect, playing all sorts of oddities. Of course, DO and BMD are pretty much straight 4/4 (or similar) throughout so I can understand if it gets boring to play those songs live exactly the way they are on record, heh.

[MadTinus]

Originally Posted by The Incision

My question is about why the hell Daniel speeds up so much while playing live? I mean you'll hear a really slow intro (ex. paris bootleg - Tonight's music)..then you'll hear this super fast count off speeding up a tempo of about maybe 120 to 150 or so. That is not the signs of a great drummer, though he gets the job done quite nice in the studio (minus the fact his kick drums had no definition on VE)he just seems to be a real REAL letdown live.

I'm glad I'm not the only one! You're completely right, he doesn't speed up or slow down within sections, but in between he very much does, it's obvious. Slow parts are too slow and fast parts are too fast.

It surprised me, cause on record his drums sound great. And then too, I'm not even a musician (but I still have a fairly good judgement being the brother of a drummer) but it's just plain to hear. It was a bit of a letdown for me too, I can't believe he doesn't notice it himself, the other bandmembers could tell him too, they are the ones who have to play along with him.

On the other hand, DAYLIGHT DIES delivered the goods waaay beyond expectation, what an AWESOME performance yesterday in Utrecht, I went completely nuts, neck and back are still aching .

[The Incision]

Yeah, he tends to change tempos alot during his playing. Like during Teargas you can actually hear him start out way too fast then slows down so slow that the band has to over confensate for it. He does a job okay in the studio but Katatonia needs to get a drummer who is more versatile & doesn't go so ballistical live, trying to do fast fills between two toms.

[EvilGenius]

Originally Posted by Cerulean

Well look, he's not BAD you know. I just feel there are drummers around that could put more feeling into it. Oh and that can handle the double bass better.

Feeling? What kind of feelings go into drumming? Perhaps rage, but other than something like that I have no idea what you're talking about. Do you play the drums?

Maybe what you mean is effort. You people are making it sound like he's a bad drummer, despite what your first sentence here says. Maybe he just needs more work on his live performance, but this by no means suggests that he is a poor drummer. His studio performance suggests that he is a very talented and creative drummer if you ask me, and being a drummer myself, I find it hard and rare to be creative behind this particular intstrument.

[EvilGenius]

Originally Posted by Cerulean

I'm quite sure that Jonas is/was a better drummer.

And what are you basing this judgment on? You've got to be kidding!
Jonas isn't a bad drummer, but he's far from exceptional. He's very basic. Not bad at all, but almost boring, at least from his work on BMD and DO.

Get yeh head checked.

[The Incision]

[quote='EvilGenius']Feeling? What kind of feelings go into drumming? Perhaps rage, but other than something like that I have no idea what you're talking about. Do you play the drums?
QUOTE]
Yes I do actually play the drums, as well as guitar & all sorts of keyboarding & sampling things. As well as Im a recording engineer for a living. I am endorsed by Pork Pie drums in fact.
If you're only putting rage into playing the drums you must not be too talented, its all about a feeling. Though Daniel does have a pretty decent sound in the studio live he speeds up like Matt Cameron on Speed.
If you want a really expresive piece of drumming check out Zaum (Danny Carey of TOOL)'s other band. The song Apperatus is increddible.

[EvilGenius]

shit, I didn't even know Danny Carey was in another band. thanks.

but still, I don't see how one can express many emotions by means of drumming. You're right about the rage thing though: that doesn't really take talent so much as it does endurance. I just can't imagine how drums can be expressive as guitars, piano/keyboard, bass, or whatever. It would take a lot more thought than what I'm putting into it right now, but at the top of my head, I can't think of another instrument that is more inexpressive than drums. my drum playing is entertainment, not a way of expressing myself (if I could express myself through drums, all of my feelings at some level I mean, then I doubt I'd be a very colorful person).

[ben4g]

Oh shit don´t say that or they will fire Daniel and if he´s removed from the band I can´t figure out how much would the band be altered again!!! Too many tricky changes in very few years
What would be next, Jonas at the drums and... Devin Towsend as the vocalist???

[Skaldir]

You're all insane!! The new drummer has the real badass groove. Fast parts too fast and slow parts too slow??? That makes the groove, I loved it live. That's the point of seeing a band live, to make it all more intense than on record. And that's what he does. It's not about being a bad drummer. He he was a bad drummer he could never play it on click in the studio, but he did it well. Don't think that Jonas is better than him.

[SoulSteal]

I am also a drummer, and i believe that the drummer(not only a drummer) whose technique fits on Katatonia songs is Dan Swano (playing drums on Tonight's Decision). Put headphones and listen to this album's drumming carefully. He kicks ass.

[MadTinus]

Originally Posted by Unicorn

You're all insane!! The new drummer has the real badass groove. Fast parts too fast and slow parts too slow??? That makes the groove, I loved it live. That's the point of seeing a band live, to make it all more intense than on record. And that's what he does. It's not about being a bad drummer. He he was a bad drummer he could never play it on click in the studio, but he did it well. Don't think that Jonas is better than him.

He's great on record and has one massive groove, but what he does live has nothing to do with groove, it seems just incapability. I mean, he does it to such an extent that I can't imagine he does that on purpose to create groove. It's great to not play clinically tight in a live situation and add some extra heaviness and groove here and there, but doing it to this extent one starts to doubt this man's sense for rhythm and pace.

[FuckinShit]

Daniel thinks he's playing in a funk/nu-metal band or smth..

[khayman]

bollocks, he`s one fucking talented drummer, that`s assured! he`s way better than most drummers around today, though i`m talking about studio recordings, i doubt i`ll see them life anytime soon. he represents 50% of katatonia, in my point of view, and i find 'viva emptiness' less good than 'last fair deal gone down' just because the drums are too deeply mixed into the overall sound.

i`d stick to daniel instead of jonas.
daniel`s drumming = godlike
jonas` vocals =godlike

so everyone should do what he does best.

[The Incision]

Dan Swano kicks ass!

[Silentjohan]

okey so I haven't heard that much live performances with Daniel but I think he's definitely better than Jonas. The two things I find most important when I hear a drummer is if they play tight and if they have groove.

[deimne]

Originally Posted by Cerulean

I've seen some signs of him not being such a great drummer as well. I saw em playing Ghost of the Sun and he had difficult times playing the double bass parts, all pulling faces and that. I'm quite sure that Jonas is/was a better drummer.

You're judging Daniel's drumming skills based on the fact that he pulls faces on occasion???!!!!! Hello!! What has that got to do with anything? I have played live before, as a bass player, on many occasions, and am definately inclined towards the face pulling. Jimi Hendrix used to pull faces which playing guitar live-DOES THAT MEAN HE COULDN'T PLAY???!!! Didn't think so. maybe little Daniel aint exactly Adrian Erlandsson (did I spell that right?) but he could keep rhythm for me anyday!! Drumming-wise. I'm not a groupie type.

[ravens]

it seems that some of you guys have no idea what you are talking of

i saw Katatonia live yesterday and i can tell you that the drumwork is great, and i mean great! He has an awesome groove, always plays i context and plays with a feel rarely seen, and ive seen them all.

ive been a musician for eleven years and i think that people perhaps shouldnt listen to the guy endorsed by "pork pie" drums

if you want a drummachine, you can always listen to Dimmu Borgir, wich i also likedang!

[the-lull]

Originally Posted by ravens

it seems that some of you guys have no idea what you are talking of

i saw Katatonia live yesterday and i can tell you that the drumwork is great, and i mean great! He has an awesome groove, always plays i context and plays with a feel rarely seen, and ive seen them all.

I think I agree with you. I've found his drumwork excellent in Gent too...I think the reproach with him comes from the fact that he's intersted in nu-metal stuff, and it somehow affects his live playing, trying to "fill" some boring part with rolls...But I really think he has done some awesome job on VE...
Oh, and concerning Jonas, he has claimed several times than Daniel was a better drummer than he was...I guess we should believe him...

[MadTinus]

Originally Posted by deimne

You're judging Daniel's drumming skills based on the fact that he pulls faces on occasion???!!!!! Hello!! What has that got to do with anything? I have played live before, as a bass player, on many occasions, and am definately inclined towards the face pulling. Jimi Hendrix used to pull faces which playing guitar live-DOES THAT MEAN HE COULDN'T PLAY???!!! Didn't think so. maybe little Daniel aint exactly Adrian Erlandsson (did I spell that right?) but he could keep rhythm for me anyday!! Drumming-wise. I'm not a groupie type.

OF COURSE Cerulean doesn't judge his drumming by the faces he pulls, it's just that it shows it takes Daniel a lot of effort to pull it off, to keep pace.

And it remains a fact that his switches of pace are not a matter of groove to this extent. It can be, but to the extent that Daniel slows down and speeds up, it can't be intentional.

[The Incision]

Dan Swano would still despite what most recently been said, be a much better choice. Daniel definently needs to record his kick drums higher in the mix next time & muffle them a bit. He needs to get a more dfinite ride & he needs to chill alittle. No one gives a fuck about how fast he can get around his three toms. Half the time live he gets too into himself & plays sloppy with fills every other second.

[Cerulean]

Heh, MadTinus actually said what I had been thinking all the time but could not quite express in English.