Countdown to the Election

[salty]

Man two things would make this thread legendary.

If Steve Ravic would come and post a huge Liberal rant, and then Terry would come and talk about how he fingered some chick with basketball tits in a voting booth before going off to hunt panthers.

[Celestial-Todd]

Originally Posted by salty

If Steve Ravic would come and post a huge Liberal rant

haha I was thinking the same thing last night

[Shannow]

Originally Posted by Dän

Prices rise steadily; there exists enough supply side incentives for produces to increase production as to keep up with demand, allowing the economy to further grow and ensure further prosperity

Question 1 : prosperity for who ? (i.e the widening gap between the have's and have-not's)

Question 2 : perpetual growth. Is it possible, when our resources are finite ?

Question 3 : why aren't "Conservatives" interested in conserving ?

[Priest of Evil]

the best line so far was when Gore said "Howard is pissing on your leg and telling you its raining".

I think all the points so far are valid arguements and although I've never voted Liberal I can see they've done a good job but obviously they've gone too far now and its time for a reality check.

I would hate to see the country end up like the US and I worry for my families future for many reasons, some stated previously.

People and politicians especially, need to look at the bigger picture for the better of the country and not simply for the current bank balance. Long term vision does not exist and the best example of this is how ill prepared the country was for drought conditions.

[Stonewall]

Don't knock the labour/labor-unionist movement.

Responsible for our glorious welfare state which seems to be quietly eroding.

Given that the global economy is driven by fundamental exploitation of labour, I am more concerned for the rights of employees than those who generate wealth from their employees.

No Shannow, perpetual growth is not possible, considering that the world is living off natural capital, and not income.

Like Harry Potter, methinks the current narrative is drawing to an end.

We need a progressive government that recognises that we live in an environment... not an economy.

[Goreripper]

The problem with kids these days is that they don't appreciate what the unions did for the working person. The changes to the labour movement that the unions implemented happened so long ago and have now been taken for granted for so long that most of us have never lived during a time when we didn't have the 38-hour week, paid sick leave, overtime incentives, workers comp laws, etc., all of which were brought about by unions. It's taken the threat of having them stripped away for people to finally seek out the unions again.

[Lord Tim]

Originally Posted by Dän

Not really, the reason I got kicked off the lord forum is because of my conservative social views that he didnt like and took offense to. Being conservative isnt wrong...its' right
seriously, its not a wrong view, just different to the values that most of you hold.

No, you were kicked off of there for being an ass. It's one thing to have views, but it's another to be insulting and demeaning of other people's views as you were doing (and as you're doing here too, to a degree).

You're free to have a view of course, but when it's different to pretty much every single other person on a forum, and every time you put your view vehemently in people's faces it causes an argument that just drags on and on, what do we do? Put up with it and end up with 5 pages of angry people and internet bullshit that gets out of control, or do we remove the source of the angst?

I'm sorry, man - I don't have anything personal against you at all, I've never met you and I have no idea what you're really like as a person, but as a member of our forum, it was just really frustrating watching the countdown to the next annoying incident that the mods had to clean up because of your views.

Now you could see that as the reasonable statement as it is, or choose to take great offence and call me and all of the mods a cunt, etc. - that's up to you. At the end of the day it doesn't mean too much either way.

And guys, regarding having Steve post here about stuff... don't even joke about that! Argh! HAHA!

[Spiff]

Originally Posted by salty

If Steve Ravic would come and post a huge Liberal rant

And talk about how Croatia invented politics.

[phlogiston]

Originally Posted by Goreripper

The problem with kids these days is that they don't appreciate what the unions did for the working person. The changes to the labour movement that the unions implemented happened so long ago and have now been taken for granted for so long that most of us have never lived during a time when we didn't have the 38-hour week, paid sick leave, overtime incentives, workers comp laws, etc., all of which were brought about by unions. It's taken the threat of having them stripped away for people to finally seek out the unions again.

That and they won't keep off my gosh-darned lawn, dagnabit!

[Lord Tim]

Originally Posted by Spiff

And talk about how Croatia invented politics.

HAHA!

Oh man, I respect what that guy does and how he stands by his beliefs and all of that, but that thread must have been the single most mind-numbingly stupid thread in the history of teh interwebs! HAHA! I'm laughing about it now but at the time, it was just painful to read! HAHA!

[Dän]

Originally Posted by chrisvp

Answer this , is Australia really debt free, I bet you cant , provide proof not just a fuck you rant , go on and fucking do it!

Private debt is huge, public debt 0, just go to ABS or RBA site for proof.

[Shannow]

Dan,
in the budget, Costello didn't say "zero debt", he said "no nett debt".
What does that mean ?

weaselwords.

If it was zero debt, then he would have said it.

Pure and simple.

[Dän]

Originally Posted by Goreripper

The problem with kids these days is that they don't appreciate what the unions did for the working person. The changes to the labour movement that the unions implemented happened so long ago and have now been taken for granted for so long that most of us have never lived during a time when we didn't have the 38-hour week, paid sick leave, overtime incentives, workers comp laws, etc., all of which were brought about by unions. It's taken the threat of having them stripped away for people to finally seek out the unions again.

Dont get me wrong, I really do appreciate what the Unions have done for this country, I say that with honesty. But I think that either the Unions dont understand reality or choose to ignore it. Sure it is an integral part of any democratic system to have an independant entity that is dedicated towards preserving and advancing workers rights, I would never disagree with that or agrue against the abolition of the unions in any way. However, my beef with the unions is such that they are far to one sided for me to take them seriously. In a perfect utopia workers wages would increase 10 fold all the time, everyone would be earning big bucks, but it doesn work like that. Its important that wages dont rise too fast, currently nominal wage is rising at about 4%, which is big, even though I was told by the unions that wages would actualy go down, so they have lied to me. Furthermore, Higher wages means higher unemployment, higher unemployment means the economy contracts and becomes unstable. I agree wages should rise, but should do so farily, a real wage increase of between 0-1% per year is healthy, a stable atmosphere means that workers factor a stable inflation rate of say 2-3% in there wages, leaving things steady and people know that when they wake up tomorrow things will be the same as today.

The main reason why I'll vote for Libs is because I have no reason not to; If Unemployment was at 10%, Interest rates at 12% and inflation at 9% then yeh I'd vote for labor, but there not. Inflation is at around 3%, UE at 4.4%, interest rates at the same as they were in Aug 2000, before the dot com crash, at 6.25% and growth is steady and higher compared to most other western nations.

Sure the economy is mainly based on natural resources and I dont know what we'll do when we run out of coal and uranium, neither party will talk about it and the issue, like the water crisis, and it wont be adressed and until the voters deem it be a serious issue, as they, we, now are with climate change.

overall, why change out of a good thing into something that is unlikely to improve things?

[Dän]

Originally Posted by Shannow

Dan,
in the budget, Costello didn't say "zero debt", he said "no nett debt".
What does that mean ?

weaselwords.

If it was zero debt, then he would have said it.

Pure and simple.

The Australian government has no debt, which is public debt, private debt is the responability of private firms and of course they will have large debt levels, its the nature of the beast in Australia.

[Stonewall]

So what is your vision for this country Dan? Or, if it is easier to answer, which do you value more strongly; traditions or ideals?

Do you believe in egalitarianism? Do you believe we have it? Have you heard of the 4th world? Do you believe that it exists in our country?

If private debt is so widespread and prevalent; does it not then become a public issue?

[Shannow]

Originally Posted by Dän

The Australian government has no debt, which is public debt, private debt is the responability of private firms and of course they will have large debt levels, its the nature of the beast in Australia.

dan, did you read my post.

Why did Costello use those three words, when two would have been sufficient, and more emphatic of the zero debt position ?

As per Stonewall's post, is the country owing massive amounts to other countries a healthy thing, whether public or private debt ?

What happens when they call in their loans ?

[Dän]

Originally Posted by Lord Tim

No, you were kicked off of there for being an ass. It's one thing to have views, but it's another to be insulting and demeaning of other people's views as you were doing (and as you're doing here too, to a degree).

You're free to have a view of course, but when it's different to pretty much every single other person on a forum, and every time you put your view vehemently in people's faces it causes an argument that just drags on and on, what do we do? Put up with it and end up with 5 pages of angry people and internet bullshit that gets out of control, or do we remove the source of the angst?

I'm sorry, man - I don't have anything personal against you at all, I've never met you and I have no idea what you're really like as a person, but as a member of our forum, it was just really frustrating watching the countdown to the next annoying incident that the mods had to clean up because of your views.

Now you could see that as the reasonable statement as it is, or choose to take great offence and call me and all of the mods a cunt, etc. - that's up to you. At the end of the day it doesn't mean too much either way.

And guys, regarding having Steve post here about stuff... don't even joke about that! Argh! HAHA!

Yeh I understand why I was banned, but is it really my problem that other people can't handle the fact that I am a conservative person who holds conservative views that are likely to be unpopular amongst many who post here.

Its not something that fills me with a great deal of concern so I dont really want to instigate an argument with you here. Likewise you're probably a cool guy, the internet is gay in many respects as people will make inference about your overall character on the basis of socially conservative commentary that you present. Thus leaving me to be seen as some sort of rascist homophobe who has no compassion and who doesnt care about people and wants corporations to rule the world and who wants to have a threesome with Howard and Bush, as was the case on the lord forum.

Chances are if you guys got to know me you'd like me, its just that you seem to think im a knob shine for having different opinions, even though I do back them up, not you personlly LT but this board in general.

Thats the bad thing about debating politics is that quite often people wont befriend you on the basis that you share an opposing opinion to them, even though you both are probably nice people.

[Dän]

Originally Posted by Stonewall

So what is your vision for this country Dan? Or, if it is easier to answer, which do you value more strongly; traditions or ideals?

Do you believe in egalitarianism? Do you believe we have it? Have you heard of the 4th world? Do you believe that it exists in our country?

If private debt is so widespread and prevalent; does it not then become a public issue?

I dont think theres a trade off between traditions and ideals, its possible to preserve traditional aspects of society but to continue to modernise.

I do believe in egalitarianism in that I hold the belief that all humans are created equal, is the way in which we are treated that makes us other wise. Regardless of race, gender etc I believe you should have the same oppotunities as the next person, and I believe in egalitarianism in a social sense. We dont have it here, nor does any country, we have social classes, race and gender bias both ways, some are the fault of out own governments both past and present, and some of the people excluded themselves.

Ive heard of the 4th world but dont really understand its meaning, I though it had something to do with war and the subsequent social exclusion from it.

Public debt is a problem when it gets to as high as it is here, if there are problems abroad then local compaines will be hit hard in there debt repayments which then becomes a problem for everyone. I never said it wasnt a problem, or that it wasnt a private issue as well, i was just asked a stupid question from some hothead who can use comma's properly.

[Dän]

Originally Posted by Shannow

dan, did you read my post.

Why did Costello use those three words, when two would have been sufficient, and more emphatic of the zero debt position ?

As per Stonewall's post, is the country owing massive amounts to other countries a healthy thing, whether public or private debt ?

What happens when they call in their loans ?

Aus gov has no debt, i dont know what you're on about, i dont see any difference between the two descriptions, one is more financially accurate than the other and Costello probably said it in that manner for that reason. Why would you bother ranting on about it?

[Dän]

Originally Posted by Shannow

Dan,
firstly can you admit that Howard has lied to us on any number of occasions ?

Do you like being lied to ?

If you like being lied to, then Yay, go Howard.

Yes he's lied and thats terrible and i dont like it. Rudd lies and the unions lie all the time, do you like being lied to? if so then yay, go the unions and rudd

[Dän]

Originally Posted by Shannow

Question 1 : prosperity for who ? (i.e the widening gap between the have's and have-not's)

Question 2 : perpetual growth. Is it possible, when our resources are finite ?

Question 3 : why aren't "Conservatives" interested in conserving ?

Where did i say 'perpetual growth'? I cant read it in what ive said.

[Shannow]

I'm not ranting.

given that nearly all of these people are lawyers (liars...both sides), and are very careful in their use of words, I was surprised when Costello didn't use zero debt, rather than nett debt.

nett debt implies that there is debt, but it's offset by something. Maybe it's assets (like a share in the Snowy scheme, roads, dams etc.), or maybe it's savings (although it's silly to have cash in one hand, and be paying interest on the other).

His use of words lead me to believe that he wasn't saying that the country had zero debt, but that the country had the capacity to pay their debt off by selling shit.

http://www.aofm.gov.au/

The AOFM manages around $50 billion of government debt and a large volume of financial assets. The AOFM manages this portfolio through issuance of Treasury Bonds and Treasury Notes, investments in term deposits with the Reserve Bank of Australia, and the execution of interest rate swaps.

A lot of zeros go into $50billion.

[Bucko]

Who cares about the election Heaven & Hell are touring

[Stonewall]

The 4th world refers to people living in 3rd world conditions inside a 1st world country.

[Shannow]

Originally Posted by Dän

Where did i say 'perpetual growth'? I cant read it in what ive said.

You stated that sustained growth is good, and a reason for voting for Howard.

If you must sustain growth every year, and that's good...isn't that perpetual ?

Or is there a plan to put on the brakes at some point ?