Nile -AOFTW.

[Seizure.]

hey Neil,

i allready did a search but couldn't find alot on the subjects.

I just recently bought AOFTW and i was kinda wondering what mic pre's you used on what for drums and guitar. and why if possible.

and if you don't mind (answering just some would be awesome just aswell):

till how far did you highpass the guitars?

were does the kick have its space/definition in the mix? and bass?

how did you place the sm57? do you maybe some pictures of it? its reeaaally damn chunky.. awesome!! maybe something you added during mixdown or was it purely the marschalls? what was it that realy added to the sound?

what reverb did you use on the ambienty guitarsounds like in the beginning of the title track AOFTW.

sorry for all the questions but i'm listening to the cd for about 2 weeks straight know and its fuggin' great!!

[Ermz]

Holy crap, Neil did that record? It totally blew me away when I heard it. Fantastic job.

I'll certainly second any and all of those questions. I had absolutely no idea how versatile Neil's engineering style really was... all I'm familiar with is the Nevermore stuff!

[NK]

Thanks guys. Yes I did produce AOTW. To be honest, it was one of the toughest mixes I've ever had to do, as there's so much going on most of the time. The faster songs are up there..250bpm, and one of them is at 265!. So that made my job quite a bit tougher, particularly in trying to keep everything as clear as possible. That all being said, I'm extremely pleased with the end result. There are a couple of things I might do slightly differently if I had the opportunity again, but all in all I think it's a good representation of the band.

To answer your questions...

The guitars are tuned in Drop A, so I really didn't have much of an opportunity to filter them at all if I wanted the low end power. Both guys have massive palm muting techniques so it was important for me to keep as much oomph as possible.

The kick is massive. It's a sample I made for the album, and has lots of click but loads of low power as well. The bass is fitted in somewhere in between the kick and the low end of the gtrs. Heh..

The gtr sound was a 57 on a Marshall amp/cab. Standard positioning really. Sorry, I didn't take any pics..never do really.

I think the gtr reverb is probably a combination of delay and Lexicon 480L, if I remember correctly.

The only thing I did use on the mix for the gtrs were 32 band graphics. I often use those for that though, so that's nothing new for me.

The album was recorded into my Pro Tools HD system, on the road in South Carolina, and was mixed in Chicago on an SSL 4000 series, with 16 E modules and 32 G modules.

Thanks for your interest - much appreciated! Oh, and Moonlapse, I've done about 350 projects...but only 4 of them were by Nevermore.



Neil K.

[Ermz]

Thanks a heap for going over that.

The guitars sound very very full and dominant on that record. Did you quad-track them at all or is it just a simple 2 takes? I could imagine that quad tracking rhythm guitars going at those speeds would be a nightmare.

I was aware that you had done a ton of records, but it's just that I wasn't really familiar with any of them. The first ones I heard were the older Nevermore records, and judging from them, I had absolutely no idea that it was you who did the new Nile. I think I just expect there to be a signature stamp on the sound, as there is with so many other producers, but going from Dreaming Neon Black to AoTW is just like 'holy shit... same guy?'.

[NK]

We did quad track the gtrs on Nile. Quite a job, but it worked great.

I try NOT to put a sonic stamp on albums. My thinking is that every band should sound individual. Also, doing the same thing over and over again, while it would be really easy and "safe", isn't remotely a challenge for me, and I like to go in to each project trying new things, adapting myself to the artist rather than expecting them to adapt to me. That's just my method.

Back in the 70s I was doing a lot of jazz/fusion records (and punk and some metal, including Unleashed in the East) and then in the early 80s I was doing lots of pop, by bands like Hall and Oates, the Romantics etc. In the mid 80s I started working with guitar-based bands again (I'm mainly a guitarist so I do enjoy that aspect a lot) and worked with Autograph, Dokken, Queesnryche etc. So, basically, I've done a lot of different things over the years, and I often like to change things up - it keeps me fresh.

Oh, and I also did the last two Cannibal Corpse albums and quite a number of other death metal albums as well. Lots of people wonder if I'm the same guy who did Hall and Oates based on those..heh.

Neil K.

[Ermz]

I think it's amazing to have such a wide repertoire. It would certainly keep the profession feeling fresh after decades of work, wouldn't it?

But I'm glad to see a professional engineer with those principles in mind. It's always been my approach to let myself adapt to the band and music as opposed to them having to work by my rules. I think having spent so much time on Andy Sneap's forum was a huge leap forward but also a few steps back for me, since it seems a majority there are just trying to sound like carbon copies of the one sound.

One last question, if I may. I'm just wondering how exactly you constructed that kick sample on AoTW?

Thanks again, Neil.

[NK]

Thanks! Yes it's definitely important for me to feel as if no two days are alike. That's the way I see music. It's not supposed to be "generic" or "cookie-cutter"..or whatever expression is used, in my opinion.

To be honest, I don't really approach my records as an engineer. While I *do* do my own engineering, I've always been a musician first and foremost. I did a 5 year apprenticeship at Trident Studios in London, and was very fortunate to work with people like Elton John, David Bowie, Thin Lizzy, Mahavishnu Orchestra, Judas Priest etc. so for me there was no specialising in one type of music - it was all about getting the best performances out of people, passionate strong performances. So, while I did of course learn how to engineer, in many cases from the best engineers in the world at the time, I always loved the fact that there was so much good music out there. That's why I like to work with lots of different types. I hate being typecast as a "metal" producer, or a "pop" producer or any other pigeonholing I've endured over the years, and there's been plenty. I'm basically a producer and a musician, who can record and mix as well, so there's no lack of communication - I'm the producer and the engineer - so it's all done before you have to worry about it. That way you get on to the important part - the music and the performances - a lot faster, and that's what the musician wants, to be able to play.

As far as forging your own sound - make your own choices. Decide what sounds you like and those you don't. Back when I started there were basically two schools of thought when it came to drum sounds - clean and tight or big and boomy. I preferred a hybrid of the two myself, which I really developed in the mid - late 70s and used for the punk/new wave stuff I was doing back then. It also worked great for the Hall and Oates stuff and things like Jon Anderson and Kansas. But it wouldn't work for today's metal. So, it's all about finding sounds that work for you...build your sonic personality etc. Build an arsenal of tools - it will be very helpful in the future.

I built the Nile sample in Pro Tools from about 10 different kicks I liked different things about. Mixing them in PT allowed me to get them all nicely phase coherent, removing flams etc. and get the most out of all the components. As they used to say when I was working on reggae sessions back in London "Maximum bass at all frequencies man".

By the way...I just finished an album by one of your local bands.



Neil K.

[Ermz]

Thanks for the advice. It never actually ocurred to me to mix and match samples to create the ideal one. It's fairly rare for me to have the one snare or the one bass drum create the ideal sound. I usually find myself over-EQing to get what I want out of it... but that sounds like a great way of getting the characteristics you want together in the one sound.

Who might be the band you were working with... or is that top-level classified info?

What I think is great about Melbourne, despite all its flaws, is that we seem to have a lack of good metal producers, and as such the first demo recording I ever did for a band seemed to have impressed a number of the local bands. I'm really hoping to get some work out of the metal scene here.

[NK]

The band is called Bugdust. Great lads! We tracked the album last year in Texas, and I mixed it in Chicago last month. It's not metal, more AC/DC style hard rock. Great songs too, which is the most important thing of course.

Neil K.

[sorceron]

funny, i was just mentioning the production on that nile cd and read this 2 minutes later. i think ill give it a listen right now \m/

[Pinhead]

First of all: Congratulations for the production on the AOTW. I love the sound! For me on of the best sounding Death Metal Albums ever.

Just a few little questions:
-You miced the git.-cabs just with one single 57? no double micing?
-And did you use a lot of compression on the guitars?
-Are their marshalls boosted with something or just stock distortion?
-which kind of mic pre's comressors did you use for the vocals?
-How was the work with the Nile guys?


Keep on doing such great productions. I admire your work! (not just the Deathmetal stuff)
Greetings.

[NK]

Hi Ken!! How's it going?

Neil K.

[NK]

Originally Posted by Pinhead

First of all: Congratulations for the production on the AOTW. I love the sound! For me on of the best sounding Death Metal Albums ever.

Just a few little questions:
-You miced the git.-cabs just with one single 57? no double micing?
-And did you use a lot of compression on the guitars?
-Are their marshalls boosted with something or just stock distortion?
-which kind of mic pre's comressors did you use for the vocals?
-How was the work with the Nile guys?


Keep on doing such great productions. I admire your work! (not just the Deathmetal stuff)
Greetings.

Thank you for the kind words. It's always very much appreciated.

I used a single 57 on the gtrs.

No compression or EQ (I prefer to use the amp for all the colouration if at all possible)

The Marshall was one of the high gain heads, 2000 I think is the model.

I used an Avalon tube mic pre/EQ/compressor on the vocals. This one:

http://www.avalondesign.com/vt737sp.html

The Nile guys were a lot of fun to work with. Great work ethic. Hard working, very bright guys. We were doing 16 hour days for weeks and it just flew by. A blast!

Neil K.

[BenMech]

Originally Posted by NK

The band is called Bugdust. Great lads! We tracked the album last year in Texas, and I mixed it in Chicago last month. It's not metal, more AC/DC style hard rock. Great songs too, which is the most important thing of course.

Neil K.

(thread hijack) You're still not done with Bugdust?? I wanted to hear that, still do.

What's after Bugdust?

[NK]

Bugdust was finished last year. I'll be finishing up Pamela Moore's stuff this month, and making headway with Aesma Daeva and Ion Vein.

[sorceron]

Originally Posted by NK

Hi Ken!! How's it going?

Neil K.

its going really well thanks for asking. lots of cool stuff happening right now. let me know when the pam stuff is done btw. from what i hear jeff did some stuff on there now i gotta hear it.

[Ermz]

I find it so hard to accept that those guitars were just tracked as is and virtually untouched in the mixing process. I usually find myself having to boost a heap of highs to get it to that 'broadcast-quality' level, and usually cutting a ton of mids for the vocals to slot in anywhere.

[NK]

Originally Posted by Moonlapse

I find it so hard to accept that those guitars were just tracked as is and virtually untouched in the mixing process. I usually find myself having to boost a heap of highs to get it to that 'broadcast-quality' level, and usually cutting a ton of mids for the vocals to slot in anywhere.

Hard to accept?

[NK]

Originally Posted by abigailwilliams

its going really well thanks for asking. lots of cool stuff happening right now. let me know when the pam stuff is done btw. from what i hear jeff did some stuff on there now i gotta hear it.

Will do. Yeah, Jeff did some great stuff.

[ArtisanBass]

Neil, I'd be interested to see what New Wave projects you did way back when. I am plagued with a good knowledge of the genre as I had a sister who was way into that style growing up.

oh and dude, Mahavishnu? Who was playing bass at the time?

[Ermz]

Originally Posted by NK

Hard to accept?

I just mean I find it hard to mentally process that it can be the case. I've tried really hard in the past to track guitars that I wouldn't have to touch, but I've always found myself having to adjust things in the end. Will keep at it though.

[NK]

Originally Posted by ArtisanBass

Neil, I'd be interested to see what New Wave projects you did way back when. I am plagued with a good knowledge of the genre as I had a sister who was way into that style growing up.

oh and dude, Mahavishnu? Who was playing bass at the time?

The stuff I was doing back then was spread across both punk and new wave. Over a 2 year period - lets say 76-78 or so - I worked with bands like the Sex Pistols, the Stukas, Mande Dahl, Why Not (who became Angletrax), Random Hold, Billy Hamon, Blazer Blazer and others. I was also doing all sort of other things (not new wave though) at the time as well. I worked for Yes doing both studio work and live sound for 18 months, and was chief engineer at Ringo's studio in Ascot for 2-3 years, where I worked with Judas Priest, Brand X (two albums) Hudson Ford, Annie Cavanaugh, Junior Campbell, Ekseption etc.

I worked on 4 Mahavishnu albums. The original bass player was Rick Laird and then Ralphe Armstrong on the last two.

[NK]

Originally Posted by Moonlapse

I just mean I find it hard to mentally process that it can be the case. I've tried really hard in the past to track guitars that I wouldn't have to touch, but I've always found myself having to adjust things in the end. Will keep at it though.

I did mention at the beginning of the thread that I used 32 band graphics on the guitars in the mix, but I do that a lot anyway, so that's nothing unusual. 1/3 octave graphics can be a great tool for many things.

To be honest, I hardly process guitars at all really. I like to keep the sound open so that the low end can breathe, especially with heavy palm muting. There's nothing like the low end power of that, and I prefer not to compress them if at all possible. Occasionally I might have to, but that's often in the case when I'm mixing something I didn't record, in order to hear all the articulation of the part. I try to make sure I can hear all of that when I track the guitars.

[BenMech]

Originally Posted by NK

I worked on 4 Mahavishnu albums.

Which ones??

I've been spinning Inner Mounting, Birds, the live album and Apocalypse late.

kinda thinking about getting Lost Trident, but then what about Visions, Inner Words, and Mac's Mahavishnu album in the 1980s?

[NK]

I was an assistant engineer on "Lost Trident Sessions" and on the mix of "Visions". I was one of the engineers on the recording and mix of "Inner Worlds".

I was only a tea boy/tape op at the time of Birds of Fire. Ha!

All the albums are great. No clunkers. The least impressive is probably the 80s Mahavishnu imho..it feels a bit watered down.