Tarja performing nightwish songs: "thoughts?"

[Mooki]

@C: I forgot to mention this earlier, but I should point out: while "Enough" might be her revenge song and while the point of view might show her as the victim of the negative behaviour of others, it does not necessarily mean Tarja has not recognised the flaws in herself and in how she deals with others. A song is about feelings at a particular point in time, about a particular event and so on, so it shows one side of the story, but of course it cannot be used as very strong evidence to suggest Tarja is unable to move on or to see her own flaws, to fix them and so on. Of course, this is just an interpretation of "Enough" so there's no solid proof one way or the other. (To be honest Tarja seems a lot more outgoing, open and obviously happy these days so I do think that she too, has changed).

I didn't pick up racism from the letter either, but some people always jump to the worst possible conclusions. Call me crazy, but I always thought cultural differences did exist, even if they are minimal. Yes, this CAN affect how we interact and communicate with others, even the values we have, though that also comes down greatly to how we are raised and our individual life experiences.

For example, Finns are apparently more shy, reserved, which is probably why I have a hard time understanding why the fuck it was so difficult to Tarja and the boys to TALK and get to know each other. I have grown up in, in my opinion, quite open, outgoing cultures where it's normal to become friendly/close quite quickly so to me it's just natural to try and get to know people, to pluck up the courage and just communicate.

I see what you mean about the communication/"immaturity" thing. Still, I think it's stupid. I mean, for fuck's sake, why hold yourself back so much? It's not like any of them were carrying the bubonic plague. :/ Again, maybe it's the more reserved nature of the Finns or something, but idk…if I had to spend so much of my time with people I'd take up socalising with them as a part-time job, at least until I needed some peace and quiet. Maybe I am too open and trusting.

LOL, I think Tarja's lyrics are the least of her worries…actually no, some of them could use some improvement, but if the marketing of her solo career still sells her as the ex-NW singer even after WLB then she will always be "that ex-NW singer who got fired".

LOL, I just realised this topic has veered off into a very general Tarja discussion rather than just being about her covering NW songs. XDDD

[C.]

^LOL, that's OK, we can be more off-topic around here.

I'm with you; I'm obviously not from a more reserved culture either so it's hard for me to understand reluctance or being unable to communicate openly, so yeah, this is an example of "cultural differences". It doesn't mean that either is wrong, just that we approach things differently and this can make for misunderstandings sometimes.

[Hyperspace]

Originally Posted by nodoubtaholic

I very much agree with this. I think it's fine just the way it is, I do feel sad that I was not apart of the "Tarja Era".. but I'm glad I found NW. And as much as I love the Tarja Era, I'm not sure that I would've become AS big of a fan based on her era alone. Coming into the NW fandom - I was not a metal listener (maybe casually), and I'd never even HEARD of symphonic metal. So to hear Tarja on top of the symphonic/metal aspects was almost TOO foreign right off the bat. I don't know if anyone else around here discovered NW during the DPP era, but I didn't delve into Tarja songs until I started really getting into it on youtube and such. I must say though, the End of an Era DVD (I had found it on youtube) is what really cemented the deal for me as a fan. There was no turning back at that point.

I discovered Nightwish during the DPP era.

[Inanna/Ishtar]

What an amazing thread; I am truly impressed.
New to metal, several months ago I was scrolling a Fantasy Art website when I was caught up by “Walking In the Air,” though I had no knowledge of the NW band at the time. My ear was responding, not my memory.
A month ago I stumbled over “Sleeping Sun” and when Tarja nailed that high F in the last chorus, clear as a bell, I became a lifelong fan, reading and listening to a lot from the beginning of NW. The girl has an impressive range.
When I learned of the parting, I read Tuomas’ original letter and Tarja’s reply. By that time I believed I knew enough to post an opinion note that said: “Tarja did not seem greedy in the beginning; it was not until after her wedding that she began reaching for more.” Guess who I blame for that with Bobby Brown’s influence on Whitney Houston in mind. Tarja’s claims to loving the (expletive) have a defensive ring to them, but what can we do. The parting of Tarja and Nightwish is a tragedy that may one day be resolved when Tarja realizes she’s given the wrong man ten of her best years and is suffering for it.
I imagine there are new heights open to a reunion with NW and sooner or later Tarja has to know this and get rid of her baggage. The 10-year contract can be scuttled. I attempted to advise her but every avenue to Tarja is blocked (censored) by Marcelo.
So, until the wakeup happens, the old songs Tarja performed with NW belong as much to her as Tuomas (who continues to get the royalties). Fans love her voice and want to hear them, as do I. Tarja and Nightwish are a phenomenal match, the like of which I have not heard since Celine Dion sang “The Power of Love.” God, please wake up that beautiful woman.
Inanna/Ishtar

[C.]

Welcome to the board!

[Mooki]

Ok, as much as I believe Marcelo fails as a manager, I find it quite uh…confronting (I'm not sure what word to use here, lol) when people accuse Tarja's marriage with him to be bad, to be abusive in some ways, etc etc. Like, people wanting to advise her to get out of this. What? Seriously? Now I don't think she's the most intelligent and brilliant woman on earth (nor do I think the Tarja/Tuomas team is the best thing since sliced bread, but I digress), but I do like to give her a little more credit than that. Can someone explain to me why we assume her life with Marcelo must be miserable just because their working relationship with NW went sour? I just think it's a big claim to make and perhaps not one conclusion we should come to easily, based only on the little we know of Tarja and Marcelo's working relationship with Tuomas and co. Remember that Marcelo might have been a bad influence, but Tarja's not blameless herself either. She's not a little girl, she can take responsibility for her own actions.

[C.]

^That's a good point, and I think it only emphasizes the theory that marriage and business partnerships don't always mix. We all have seen well enough he's a crappy manager, but that doesn't make him a crappy husband. In fact, I tend to think that with the occasional exceptions (say, Celine Dion, for example), the better of a spouse you are, the crappier a manager you would make, because that person would have less of a head for business and be ruled more by their heart. Sometimes as a manger, you have to do things that on the surface may not appear to be the best for the talent in the short run, but will be better over time. If you love someone, you don't want to cause them any pain, right? So a lot of the times those decisions that are not always friendly or wonderful are going to be glossed over, causing more damage to the person in the long run.

[Inanna/Ishtar]

Being new, I felt the need to make a case for Tarja’s freedom to use the Nightwish songs she helped popularize. Re-reading, my case seems better suited to a different thread; I apologize. You were all doing so very well.

[C.]

^That's OK, we're not as strict in our rules about where certain topics can be discussed, as long as they're in the same general vein. This is a Tarja-related thread, so this discussion can be mentioned here.

[Taimi]

Err, having browsed this thread, I don't think it's a cover. She HELPED record the stuff she's doing. It would be a cover if she started with Anette-era stuff. Get the terminology right, please.

[C.]

Yeah, I never understood that either. Maybe the topic should be retitled "Tarja *performing* Nightwish songs".

[PhlegethonVeins]

Holy crap, this discussion will never end in the world of Nightwish.

[C.]

Probably not.

[Traxan]

I won't speculate on the state of the Cabuli marriage, but I will fault Tarja for not realizing the line between her marriage and her band. Cabuli's interference in the business of Nightwish was unprecedented and he got away with it ONLY due to Nightwish not jerking his leash back the first time he did it. Once he realized Tuomas was a pushover, well, he kept up the behavior. But Tarja did nothing to stop it, from what we've seen.

I mentioned in another thread that Cristina Scabbia of Lacuna Coil is married to a member of Slipknot. I can't imagine for one minute that he would stick his nose into LC business in any way, but if he did, Cristina would smack him down in a second (I'm Italian, trust me). And so would her bandmates.

If only to keep her bandmates from killing him, Tarja should have been the one to put Marcelo in his place, especially after the Iron Maiden incident (please don't make me type that story again). The fact she didn't means one of two things: she was on his side and put herself ahead of Nightwish, or she was afraid to say anything. Given the litany of outrageous behavior on her part in the OUAN book and Tuomas's firing letter, I'd say it's the former.

[Bianca74]

It's pretty obvious that Cabuli's intention was to drive some sort of wedge between Tarja and the boys, but I will never understand these women who'll do anything for their boyfriend/husband. As to the question if Tarja's happier now or when she was with NW. I think that financially she was happier with NW, but personally I think she's happier on her own.
Spamming a bit here, but do you think that the fact that the sale of merchandise has fallen is in part due to the fact that Tarja is no longer part of the band, or the fact that there was quite a long hiatus between DPP and Imaginaerum, that has caused it?
I was just wondering why the sale of merchandise has decreased.

[BaraHime]

^ Fewer good designs on said merchandise?

On thing I will say in defense of Marcello, when he and Tarja first met was shortly before she got groped by some psycho who ran up on stage. The boys (and the security guys) just stood there like morons. Marcello ran up and beat the guy back, I think the book says that he actually kicked the guy in the head to protect Tarja. So while he may suck as a manager, I somehow don't see him as the type who'd be a bad guy to be in a relationship with. Tarja and he were together before he was even made her official manager, also, many artists have been known to put family ahead of their careers. It is a hard choice to make, but given the choice, I think Tarja just felt that a Soprano's shelf life is short (a person's voice gets lower with age, which just crushes a Soprano's functionality), and Nightwish's methods were never really to her taste (long aggressive tours, poor conditions for a vocalist, etc.), whereas her marriage will hopefully last for life. So she just chose to prioritize the thing that will last, as opposed to something that would be fleeting regardless, and was uncomfortable anyway. Better to do things her way, with her Husband by her side, even if the fame and money will be less. Doing what feels right to you in your heart regardless of whether it is the wisest thing to do is something one should expect from an artist. He did egregious damage to Nightwish, so being irritated with him for sucking as a manager is fine, but I don't see why personal attacks are necessary. Unless someone here knows the guy personally. A "you fired!" letter written in spite by the ever melodramatic Tuomas is not a reliable source to base assumptions about Marcello's personality if you ask me. And even the book acknowledges that Emppu was still on good terms with both Tarja and Marcello up until the split. The way he is quoted in the book makes it seem almost as though the others bullied him into signing the letter, like he just did because he was out voted... It was just business gone bad I think, and not really an issue of someone being a bad person. And honestly, I don't see why it matters now.

[C.]

Fewer good designs on said merchandise?

Possibly. I would also even blame the economy in some respects, as not everyone right now has a sh*tload of money to spend at Nightwish-Shop.

Maybe the Finns can answer this for us, but is it so common for the opening show of the tours to lack so much in merchandise? Because I was really surprised that there was only ONE design of t-shirt offered at the Gibson show. Sure, there were hoodies and girlie shirts, but all of it was in the same design. I mean, I didn't expect a plethora of different designs, but there's usually at least 2 or 3 different styles to choose from.

Personally, I haven't been blown away much by the Imaginaerum merch yet. Considering all we've heard about the movie and the visuals that the music invokes, I really expected more artistically from the designs on the shirts. Except for the dancer's shirt (which only came in girly size), I haven't seen one shirt yet that has grabbed my attention so much that I had to buy it ASAP. I have more Nightwish shirts than of any other band simply because the artwork on the shirts, to me, are so artistically beautiful. And anyone who knows me here knows that I collect band t-shirts the way other women collect shoes and purses.

BaraHime: I think you bring up a good point, and it just comes back to the sad fact that both parties failed in their own way. Maybe if the guys had been more protective of Tarja or more considerate of her needs, maybe she wouldn't have felt as if she had to shelter under Marcelo to have her needs met. Like I said, I don't think Marcelo's a bad person; the things Tuomas accuses him of that make him a "bad" manager, to me, are more out of his defense of Tarja, proving why it's probably not best to have a spouse as a manager, because they are making decisions based on their personal feelings. But if that's what makes him a bad manager, there are a lot worse out there.

However, I do remember that another band was having problems with Marcelo at the same time the open letter was printed, so there was a little more than just Tuomas' ranting in an open letter that was giving people insight as to what Marcelo was like as a manager. I recall reading their statement about those issues online, and they were also printed in the Nightwish book later on as well. So I think Marcelo sort of had this reputation going around as it was, and the open letter just delivered the finisher, you know?

[BaraHime]

^ Yeah. I was talking more about the personal attacks being a bit uncalled for. We definitely have proof that he sucks as a manager.

[C.]

I kinda look at both parties at fault there, as Marcelo made his share of personal attacks towards Tuomas. I also thought it was a little chickensh*t of Tarja to let him speak on her behalf and come out with his own "open letter" rather than to address the issue on her own, in her own words.

[BaraHime]

^ Yes, that's true. Spite all around. 30+ year old men acting like grade-school girls.

[C.]

That's menfolk in a nutshell. But we love 'em anyway.

[St Enigma]

Originally Posted by C.

Maybe the Finns can answer this for us, but is it so common for the opening show of the tours to lack so much in merchandise? Because I was really surprised that there was only ONE design of t-shirt offered at the Gibson show. Sure, there were hoodies and girlie shirts, but all of it was in the same design. I mean, I didn't expect a plethora of different designs, but there's usually at least 2 or 3 different styles to choose from.

I think it has to do with the customs duties in the USA, at least this time when the opening show was a one shot only. USA is actually very protective country when it comes importing certain everyday goods like common clothing. A band from abroad who'd like to earn a few extra bucks on selling merch, importing stuff means that they have to pay freight, duties and taxes and whatnot beforehand just to get the merch cleared into the country.
Another means would be ordering shirts and stuff from a local manufacturer, but small quantities mean higher unit prices and maybe will not become profitable.

[C.]

OK, I see. Thanks for clearing that up!

[Mooki]

I saw a post on Tumblr that was something like: at one of Tarja's solo shows, she mentioned how she's made some mistakes in the past, but she has learnt from it, moved on and is happy now. I should find the post itself because my explanation is really crappy, but basically, what it says to me is that even Tarja has (to some degree at least) acknowledged that she fucked up in the past, but she's learning from these mistakes and is happy in her professional life now. That, I think, really beats down the argument of the fanbrats that make Tarja out to be the ultimate victim and it certainly shows she's not a bad person either. Everyone fucked up, but hey, such is life. They've moved on, they're probably better people for it now.

[C.]

^This.