Opeth forum will close down?

[hibernal_dream]

Moderation was definitely a problem. I didn't see the threads, but insults to dead people? Anything like that should be removed instantly and the person responsible banned. Mr Samsara was a good guy but he applied the wrong rules. Modding is a hard job - you can't get emotional as Samsara discovered early on. You need good rules and you need to apply them even-handedly. Having the non-Opeth chat made applying them even harder, because it made almost anything fair-game.

I also don't see the need for the Non-Opeth music chat. It wasn't needed in the early years, and check the threads if you don't believe me, that was the best time for the forum. No problems with members, very little mischief and people didn't linger here all day and create trouble. It was just a place to check news and discuss the band we love. People didn't obsess over the place enough to care about arguing. When you pay for people to come here who aren't fans and discuss things unrelated to Opeth, you're expecting trouble. A strictly band chat forum is much better, the trolls don't have as much fun and they leave. The true fans stay and the quality of discussion increases.

I do think this place was good for the band's business, even with the negative aspect. Having it encouraged a greater interest among the fans and made metal fans perusing UM who hadn't heard of Opeth to check them out. The discussions held the music in the consciousness of all who participated in them, and in turn hearing the thoughts of others made the music richer for all of us. But in the end it was an emotional decision from Mike, not a business decision. That's a true music fan for you - they don't put money above integrity.

[burntoast]

Originally Posted by hibernal_dream

Modding is a hard job

Actually, it's not. It's simple: when someone is constantly patently inflammatory or trolls needlessly, you ban him.

Originally Posted by hibernal_dream

you can't get emotional as Samsara discovered early on.

Actually, you can. There's no democratic element to this.

[hibernal_dream]

Originally Posted by burntoast

Actually, it's not. It's simple: when someone is constantly patently inflammatory or trolls needlessly, you ban him.

If it were that easy, it would have been done. Some users might have been good early on, then mods form attachments to them and don't realise when things get out of hand. Seems like this happened with this "Arasmas" guy and many others in the past. Not to mention Moonlapse quitting because the pressure was too much.

Actually, you can. There's no democratic element to this.

Well, of course. You want a human being not a computer, that's why we have human mods.

[Hügelgräber]

Originally Posted by hibernal_dream

I do think this place was good for the band's business, even with the negative aspect. Having it encouraged a greater interest among the fans and made metal fans perusing UM who hadn't heard of Opeth to check them out. (...) But in the end it was an emotional decision from Mike, not a business decision. That's a true music fan for you - they don't put money above integrity.

I don't think it is a sign of integrity to give up something that other people enjoyed based on emotions that were risen by 2 or 3 idiots. It is not that this place is hopeless. Like burntoast says, modding is easy, when you set easy - and strict - rules.

Originally Posted by hibernal_dream

If it were that easy, it would have been done. Some users might have been good early on, then mods form attachments to them and don't realise when things get out of hand. Seems like this happened with this "Arasmas" guy and many others in the past. Not to mention Moonlapse quitting because the pressure was too much.

No. That Arasmas guy should have been banned after 3 posts. He was always insulting people.

[hibernal_dream]

Fact is he wasn't. Samsara tried the hard-arsed approach early and it didn't work. Then he admits he got too soft. I'm not a mod, I don't know how hard it is but i'm sure it's harder than it looks. You have to be both fair and tough-skinned while respecting the band's directions, and the band doesn't want to lose any fans by unnecessarily banning them from the forum. I suspect it is Mikael that's the soft-hearted one here going by the mods we've had over the years. But I agree, that Arasmas guy was trouble from the start.

[burntoast]

Originally Posted by hibernal_dream

If it were that easy, it would have been done. Some users might have been good early on, then mods form attachments to them and don't realise when things get out of hand. Seems like this happened with this "Arasmas" guy and many others in the past. Not to mention Moonlapse quitting because the pressure was too much.

If I were the mod, it would have been done a long time ago. It really is that easy. No attachment. No emotion. If you're doing your job right as a mod, you should never form attachments to assholes. And this isn't the first time Arasmas has been banned.

And quitting because of pressure? What pressure?! It's a fucking forum! Jesus! How hard is it to just press one simple button?

Originally Posted by Hügelgräber

No. That Arasmas guy should have been banned after 3 posts. He was always insulting people.

Thank you!

Originally Posted by hibernal_dream

You have to be both fair and tough-skinned while respecting the band's directions, and the band doesn't want to lose any fans by unnecessarily banning them from the forum.

You've got to be joking. The people who get banned deserve to be banned. Most cases are black and white. I doubt Mike's going to lose any sleep over it.

[Mr Samsara]

Originally Posted by Hügelgräber

I don't think it is a sign of integrity to give up something that other people enjoyed based on emotions that were risen by 2 or 3 idiots. It is not that this place is hopeless. Like burntoast says, modding is easy, when you set easy - and strict - rules.

Yeah... like "back seat driving" and "Monday Morning Quarterbacking" is easy. It's actually a bit more complicated than you are willing to admit.... if you choose to consider the human element. I was constantly bashed for being to rigid and inflexable and humorless in the beginning. Almost no circumstance fit in a nice neat little box of "clear rule violation". That fact is what trolls capitalize on to do what they do. If it was that obvious, it wouldn't be "trolling" now, would it? We created "Guidelines" rather than rules at one time because everyone said "Rules" were retarded ffs. We relied on people to use some common sense and a bit of decency... and I tried to give people a chance to redeem themselves. Don't you see that most of the more dedicated trolls just return with a router reboot and a new account? Getting banned is a badge of honor for those dolts. The answer has always been a balanced combination of even handed bans/moderation, with the forum membership being unresponsive to the trolling that exists. Under those circumstances, what good would trolling do? Why would they continue? Unfortunately, the lack of restraint to blatant trolling posts made this place a fertil ground for the troll. Oh, wait... I mean... It's clearly all the fault of the shitty moderator.

[burntoast]

It's not shitty moderation. It's taking the job too seriously. Being bashed for being inflexible and humorless sounds pretty silly to me when all you're doing is banning morons. You should just ignore those who feel that way. I don't see why this is an issue.

What should have been done (and could still be done)—as I keep pointing out—is requiring people to confirm their registration with the mod to post. That'll make things a lot easier.

[Silhouette_01]

This sucks hardcore since i have no place to come and talk opeth with other fans anymore...But as much as it sucks i totally respect Mikes decision to shut it down and hope to talk with some of you on a future non-official forum.

[NicholasDWolfwood]

lolling at the dolts saying modding is easy. fact is that one way or another sam was getting his ass chewed out for his decisions regarding the rules/guidelines on this forum. either they were too rigid or they were too loose, either way it's not easy.

and no matter how much bang and co trolled, at one point they contributed a lot to this forum. but since watershed's release, and even going back to gr's release - a lot of dumbasses joined the board who made it very easy to "troll" them. while I don't agree with the posts that they made in the last couple of days in regards to the musician in question (very rude and disrespectful and took the trolling too far in this instance), they still had things to contribute to the forum (ie the arasmas countdown thread.)

whats interesting to note is that as someone else said, two generations have come and gone from this forum. you first had the guys that split into opethforum/dd/welp/whateverthefuck, and then people split to go to belting. shit, even NFU lost interest after awhile. go figure.

to you people saying they "should have been banned after 3 posts" or whatever: they were here far before you were, contributing to the forum far before you were. iirc bang and co came on here in like 03 or smth.

just my piece on this. good times on this forum all the same.

shadowedit:

Originally Posted by burntoast

What should have been done (and could still be done)—as I keep pointing out—is requiring people to confirm their registration with the mod to post. That'll make things a lot easier.

rofl by what, a 50 question survey? what kind of suggestion is that?

[nikolia]

Originally Posted by Mikael Åkerfeldt

As I said, it's no big deal, just a forum closing down, right?

Cheers!
Mike

Actually it is a big deal, to me at least. I truly look forward to reading this forum every day and am very grateful that folks from the band actually take the time to read/post here. I know I am not alone in the sentiment that this is a very special place.
I've enjoyed finding the latest Opeth news/interviews (not to mention exceptional tabs - thanks Wankerness!) here, and have cracked up over the Photoshopeth thread countless times. It is interesting to get the perspectives of other fans from around the globe as well.
However, I realize as with most things in life, you have to weed through a lot of crap to find the little gems. It is too bad the common perception seems to be that the former outweighs the latter here. I still believe this forum has potential, but respect the decision to shut it down if it is deemed necessary. Best wishes to all of you.

[burntoast]

Originally Posted by NicholasDWolfwood

rofl by what, a 50 question survey? what kind of suggestion is that?

No, you should just PM the mod and he'll confirm you. At least then the trolls can't just seep in whenever they feel like.

[Anesthetize]

^ Uh, I don't imagine a troll would lose any sleep over tricking a mod into letting him post. Not to say Samsara or anyone is gullible, but it's fairly easy to pretend not to be a troll...

[burntoast]

No shit. I just mean they can't just set up accounts instantly and start flooding the forum whenever they feel like.

[Hügelgräber]

Originally Posted by Mr Samsara

Yeah... like "back seat driving" and "Monday Morning Quarterbacking" is easy. It's actually a bit more complicated than you are willing to admit.... if you choose to consider the human element. I was constantly bashed for being to rigid and inflexable and humorless in the beginning. Almost no circumstance fit in a nice neat little box of "clear rule violation". That fact is what trolls capitalize on to do what they do. If it was that obvious, it wouldn't be "trolling" now, would it? We created "Guidelines" rather than rules at one time because everyone said "Rules" were retarded ffs. We relied on people to use some common sense and a bit of decency... and I tried to give people a chance to redeem themselves. Don't you see that most of the more dedicated trolls just return with a router reboot and a new account? Getting banned is a badge of honor for those dolts. The answer has always been a balanced combination of even handed bans/moderation, with the forum membership being unresponsive to the trolling that exists. Under those circumstances, what good would trolling do? Why would they continue? Unfortunately, the lack of restraint to blatant trolling posts made this place a fertil ground for the troll. Oh, wait... I mean... It's clearly all the fault of the shitty moderator.

Moderating a forum can be hard, if you let criticism get to you, especially when you do it alone, i guess this is one of the problems.
I sometimes had the notion that you know "that Arasmas guy" in person, because he could do what he wants, and you said nothing (in public). In this case it was absolutely obvious, and he could make over - don't know - several hundred posts. 10% useful posts by a user can't justify to keep him. The other trolls could be counted with one hand.

But of course, if there is someone to blame, it is the trolls.

-
There is a reason why most public forums have strict rules and not simply guidelines. I think there are enough people here who would understand very well, that insultive, or "trollish" behaviour cannot be tolerated in an official forum. Even if someone bashes the moderator for that, there will be more who understand his actions. But i have to say i would not want to moderate this place alone, simply because noone got the time to do all the work.
And if you don't let them keep their badges, this means deleting their posts, they will get away. And if they don't, the so to say pitiful modertors have to keep deleting. That is a lot of work, but i think that is not something that can't be done by such a big forum like UM. And as i said: It is not, that there were many trolls around here to take care of.

[Ozzloaf]

It's about time! I second the "Mike's best since MAYH" thing hahaha...

About a year ago I would have felt crushed to see this place go but now I am very enthusiastic over it. Like Trent said (and I can personally attest to his observation) most "serious" people on this forum became disgusted by the average behavior and, myself included, fled to other music websites. It's quite a shame because this place was once a decent forum.

I will still miss the Photoshopeth and Opeth Collectors threads...

This forum has reached the point were it actually can tamper with the feelings of the music, so, for Opeth's sake, this forum must be closed!

[metal_wrath]

I am just now hearing about this forum closing. Very disappointing.

I agree, this forum has become even worse the past year. At the same time this is the only destination for Opeth fans on the internet, and the best place for Opeth news, funny stories etc...

Just looking at the new members thread, there are tons of Opeth fans signing up here all the time.

At this point I think another forum is needed. I will be starting a forum at OpethForum.com...

[Pethical]

Well said to those of you i've had the pleasure of conversing with over the years, (you know who you are, yes even you Metal_wrath!). This place will be missed, but I respect Mike/Mod's wishes in light of their comments. Opeth is more than just a forum, and we can all take solace through that.

[t0ka]

Originally Posted by Pethical

Opeth is more than just a forum, and we can all take solace through that.

its all about the music

[drowssap]

hi guys,

Been a while since I posted anything here but I did want to make a small statement. I understand Mikael doesn't want to "endorse" bad behavior. What needs to be done is better moderation not just cut and run. I know forums can be dicey at best when it comes to people. Internet tough guys and trolls can make the experience bad. I have seen it work though. I am a member of another forum that has done some amazing things for members. What you would have to do is get a group of moderators who are responsible and dedicated and lock the forums that start getting out of hand...and you have to nip it in the bud very quick!! It might seem a little like Nazism to some but once you make the rules clear, concise, and consistent, the members will fall in line and the ones who don't get vacations or permanent bans. It can work, maybe you will want to consider it before closing it altogether.

[Morningriser]

As a person who only came on here to read Mike's posts for the most part, I want to personally thank the parties responsible for taking that away from me.

[wwallinga]

Originally Posted by drowssap

What you would have to do is get a group of moderators who are responsible and dedicated and lock the forums that start getting out of hand...and you have to nip it in the bud very quick!!

Agreed - or just delete them immediately instead of leaving them open in a futile attempt to teach the entire group a lesson. All this ever did was clog the front page and escalate tensions. The trolls got what they wanted - attention and chaos.

[{-sapob-}]

Are you for serial?

Isnt the moderator supposed to take care of the shit post's and poster's?
half the shit wouldnt be here if it was deleted promptly instead of the wait and see outlook weve had.
Stringing us on until suddenly theres no forum left.
Sorry for having a dig at you mr.samsara, i realise you still hold the power,
this is just how i see it.

*flame suit equipped*

Edit: like always i came in too late with this.

[burntoast]

This forum shouldn't be closed. Don't let the people who ruined it win.

[gumtree]

Well, this is certainly shit.But to be honest, I only really came here for a select few threads with collectors thread being the main one for me. Most other topics were either too full of shit, or unappealing to even bother contributing to.
I respect Mike's decision to close the forum, but like it was mentioned earlier, what will happen to all these years of Opeth knowledge that this forum has accumulated? Will it all just disappear?

It was fun while it lasted.