Transgender

[razoredge]

Thanks for your appreaciation and understanding of my excellent post. Shit man !

Well we'll go back to nasty then

As far as I know phobia = fear ? Well bullshit then, some people are just grossed out... deal with it... they arent making it up.... it gives them the creeps... I guess they are the ones with the unnatural issues ?

Am I going to find a picture of a transexual Bonobo (which I never even heard of) or a Dolphin ? Didnt think so. Does this pertain to all species of animals and therefore should pertain to all species of men ?

So you deny what motivates stimulation in animals ? You feel one is just born and decides he/she only wants to have sex with the same kind ? dayly ?

In humans are you going to confuse or tie sexual perversion in with biological faults ?

Did the Greek men get married ? Commit to each other for life ? Or just get freaking horney ?

Strays from the norm are not why we exist, dont give me the single cell thing. Man and the same animals have been around for thousands of years long after the first cell. Are you trying to tell me that nature is currently trying to create a breed of same sex humans ? A breed of down syndrome children or name any of the other hundreds of development faults.

Contraseption is not necessary in the rest of the living world because it has checks and balances, survival of the fittest, natural predators and starvation if over population occurs. In fact population is directly influenced in birth rate/litter size according to population and food sources. Mankind no longer has checks and balances and that is why weaker links are on the rise.

I was raised "religious" as in went to church and said now I lay me down to sleep for a breif period but my family was far from a religious extreme. they certainly never made me say "now I lay me down to sleep... but never with a man" I personally havent been religious since I was ? 12 14 ? but never did I hear anything about not supposed to have same sex-sex or anything about sex for that matter... in fact I had my eyes all over girls long before I even knew why, then when I did hear about sex with girls I had still not heard about same sex-sex ? Are you trying to tell me I should have been educated in the possibilities first ? Should have researched surveys, studies of monkeys and fruit flys and indulged the scientific community for my sex ed ? Thus left wonder why I didnt have my eyes all over the boys as well ?

I would propose I came by my sexuality alot more naturally than is allowed today and I propose that is also how the human race survived and found its sexualality all these millenniums... and without doctors and hospitols to patch us up and the scientific community and special interests groups to keep our heads straight.... its a complete miracle, imagine that.

Yep the likes of my kind are real bible humping freaks of nature... look at all we missed out on

Ludicrous

continue

[The Poona of Peshwa]

Originally Posted by razoredge

Well we'll go back to nasty then

I really don't think that I was being nasty.

Originally Posted by razoredge

As far as I know phobia = fear ? Well bullshit then, some people are just grossed out... deal with it... they arent making it up.... it gives them the creeps... I guess they are the ones with the unnatural issues ?

No, I fully understand that people have an adverse, physical reaction to this sort of thing. Tolerance is the key issue. You don't have to like it.

Originally Posted by razoredge

Am I going to find a picture of a transexual Bonobo (which I never even heard of) or a Dolphin ? Didnt think so. Does this pertain to all species of animals and therefore should pertain to all species of men ?

All I was saying is that you are convinced that something is 'wrong' with the development of transsexual people, and try to couch it in biological terms. We just plain can't base our morals on the animal kingdom. Bonobos, who share 97% of our DNA, masturbate their children to calm them down.

Because you're moralizing the behaviour as a wire getting crossed and the prejudice of others as a result of natural law, you feel comfortable with allowing prejudices as they exist and only combating the actual physical assault of these people. I don't think you'd have such an easy time justifying racism, although I'm sure a lot of racists would get a serious 'grossed-out' feeling watching a black man have sex with a white woman.

Originally Posted by razoredge

So you deny what motivates stimulation in animals ? You feel one is just born and decides he/she only wants to have sex with the same kind ? dayly ?

In humans are you going to confuse or tie sexual perversion in with biological faults ?

Of course not, what I object to is the biological or social differences being moralized when they are actually harmless.

Originally Posted by razoredge

Did the Greek men get married ? Commit to each other for life ? Or just get freaking horney ?

No, it was complicated. Normally an older man would have a boy who he sort of apprenticed, while also getting sexual favours. I find it repugnant, but as I said you can't view the past properly if you moralize it.

Originally Posted by razoredge

Strays from the norm are not why we exist, dont give me the single cell thing. Man and the same animals have been around for thousands of years long after the first cell. Are you trying to tell me that nature is currently trying to create a breed of same sex humans ? A breed of down syndrome children or name any of the other hundreds of development faults.

I specifically said that this is not the case. Nature doesn't 'try' to do anything. Imparting morals and goals onto nature itself is my main problem with what you're saying.

Originally Posted by razoredge

I was raised "religious" as in went to church and said now I lay me down to sleep for a breif period but my family was far from a religious extreme. they certainly never made me say "now I lay me down to sleep... but never with a man" I personally havent been religious since I was ? 12 14 ? but never did I hear anything about not supposed to have same sex-sex or anything about sex for that matter... in fact I had my eyes all over girls long before I even knew why, then when I did hear about sex with girls I had still not heard about same sex-sex ? Are you trying to tell me I should have been educated in the possibilities first ? Should have researched surveys, studies of monkeys and fruit flys and indulged the scientific community for my sex ed ? Thus left wonder why I didnt have my eyes all over the boys as well ?

Of course not. You can't use your own experience to judge all other people though, let alone the animal kingdom. Do you think that homosexuality is a choice or not, I can't tell.

Originally Posted by razoredge

I would propose I came by my sexuality alot more naturally than is allowed today and I propose that is also how the human race survived and found its sexualality all these millenniums... and without doctors and hospitols to patch us up and the scientific community and special interests groups to keep our heads straight.... its a complete miracle, imagine that.

Yes, and throughout that time the life expectancy was perhaps 25 years old, and about a quarter of people died violently. You're right, we live in a different world. We evolved in the savannahs of Africa, and we bear the stamp of our lowly origin. That's precisely why education is so important. Nobody's trying to stop kids from coming by their sexuality naturally except possibly religiously motivated schools.

[razoredge]

I place no morality on this at all, Im sure a good percentage would place me low in the sexually moral department.

I just thought and should add in all fairness, that I was raised in a time when "sex" was much more repressed than it is today, not religiously but just the traditional = virgin, one partner for life kind of thing. Like dont look at girl in that fashion, girls should be respected and you shouldnt be trying to get them naked. Never stopped us though but we were far more reserved and the girls really were. And it was my generation that blew the whole sex thing out of the water, not that older generations did not have their fun as well, it was just kept behind closed doors, where in reality is where it belongs, it is supposed to be a special personal thing. Of course we know parents & society repressed this because of worries about unwanted pregnancies, becoming trapped in life determining situations too early, ect. But we were much pruder outwardly, cant say the same for what went on in the mind or how boys talked to boys about such stuff but we controled it outwardly... a key point to my views on teenage "johnny". As I pointed out in my one example we also did not harrass the people that were different, so in this case of sexual morals we also may have been exposed to higher morals as not to bother people. Plus it was the 70's with peace, love and flowers still in the air... lol.

Yes I know something went wrong prior to transgender birth, this is why they have the huge delemma. "Here I sit, born with a boys body but I have the desires to be a girl"... no questioning it. I feel for them and am glad I did not have this issue, as we are all thankful for our health and anything in life that doesnt put us up against the wall. But I know they are born that way the same with any femish boys or manly girls who assume those roles in a gay relationship. Im not sure if any youthful transgender leanings could come from after birth developement but I do believe many gay leanings are. I also know we have one side with full propaganda to offer youth the consideration to become gay or "give it a try, its natural" I believe some kids have various problems or occurances in their life that would send them this way and we make it easier every year. I've never felt making things easy on kids to be positive and Im steadfast on that one. Nothing was easy for us and by the time I was 30 I was glad and understood why.

The black man white woman thing... I think that is jelousy and intimidation but I suppose racism could make some feel sickened. I know many guys that say they would not touch a black girl and I... pervert that I am... cant see it. As for pursueing for a mate my views are the same as with "johnny", your looking for trouble in many ways, not for being beat but many many others and why force the delemma that would always be present. There is also more things to consider than heavy pounding hearts.

Masterbate children to calm them down.... that is friggin funny. I will say with our "tolerant", "political correct" direction I wouldnt be surprised if theres some special interest group in 100 or so years pressing for it to be done. Parents can sign a permission slip for the school masterbater to jerk the kids off when they get "frisky". Seriously, that is how I look at all these in our face ball asses. The world especially America is just loaded with people with their noses in everyone elses business, thats why everyone needs or is told they need counseling today... "ya just got to have it". When I was young if you went to a counseler (sp) you were one fucked up person, today its like they are telling us the opposite... what is that I hear?... is that clinking of change in the background ?

I think my example of how I came by sexuality to be a good example, nothing was forced fed down my throat. Everything is force fed today. Media and special interests groups see to it that its done that way. Deny it and I call bullshit.

I also call BS toward your life expectancy thing. It is an average based on more frequent youth deaths. Survivors that did not have to do all the silly battles mankind insists on lived long lives as is today... not counting the medical advancements that add more years to other genetical faults. Before I get my bones jumped for that one let me say my mother died at 36 (brain cancer) and my father at 67 (white cell cancer) so Im not putting my genes all high and mighty.

I do base my views on what I openly see and evaluate and I believe I do it fairly. I dont need some "scientist" or bias interpretation of some study to see things for what they are. I would suggest others do the same, that is how the strong survived and how the fairly non disfunctional people became the majority... grit, practical, resourceful, logical and attentive... not because some scientist proposed a hypothisis and collected data or some high pressure interest group told them how to act and think.

[WeAreInFlames]

Originally Posted by razoredge

As I recall you said you believed they should stay as they are born. This is a contradiction in itself. In essence they have a womans mind, for example interests & desires, inside a mans body or visa versa. They may also have some physical characteristics that are not totally manly or womanly. So this brings the question... how were they actually born ? The swingin dingy is not the only thing that makes a man a man.

Finally, we actually begin talking about what I wanted to talk about. Thanks.
As far as physical characteristics go, we're not talking hermaphrodites here, we're talking man or woman. And I really don't believe that it's a "womans mind" or whatever. They can be into whatever they want, but whatever scientific differences exist between the brains of men and women, they aren't present in transgender people. (As in, they have a man's body and a man's brain thinking it's a woman).
So I simply don't buy it.

Originally Posted by razoredge

On this Im not sure, but I believe for one, its because they are a bunch of psychotic wack jobs that cling to close to an ancient book and are just plain jelous. Its abit of a contradiction to have multiple sex slaves and worry about lust at the same time... No?

My guess is that polygamy comes a society in which many of the men die in battle or whatever, and so it's necessary for a man to take multiple wives to protect them. Also note that polygamy predates Islam, and is not a universal Islamic practice or anything. Also note that "contradictions" and "organized religion" might as well be synonymous.

In the case of the transexual... this is why we have natural laws we are born with in regards to common sense = dont do things that will get your ass kicked.

voila... problem solved

Or not.
The point here is that they should be able to wear a skirt without getting beaten up. Why is this so hard for you?

Originally Posted by razoredge

[b]I know of only one example of this I can present, and it came word of mouth first hand from the person involved, I've been saving this because I know it will create more nonsensical assumption jumping and insults directed at me. One of my best friends moved to Staten Island back in the early 80's, he made new friends, this one Im now talking about I never liked. Apparently he was out one night and picked up some girl, one thing led to another and upon reaching between her legs he got a bit of a surprise. The story was he punched the guy until he got out of the car. While I in no way approved of his reaction, nor would I have dealt with it that way... I was glad it was not me in that situation. This kind of thing does happen, no one can deny that and it is an example of others being confronted with the issue at hand in a less than appropriate manor.

Frankly in his position I might react the same way...although I like to think that my keen knowledge of the female form might clue me in a litter sooner.
But this is obviously not typical of transgender people. You've been consistently taking anecdotes (the gay guy that didn't get harassed, the tranny who tried to pick up your friend) and applying them universally (gay guys don't get picked on, trannies just want to get in your pants). This is extremely faulty logic.

Originally Posted by razoredge

Let me start by saying, I still dont fall for the other mammals in nature thing, I definantly dont believe there are transgenders in other species and I believe just the more standard of sizes and social functions prove this within breeds, and the strays from the norm do not survive. Also animal "sex" is no where near the degree that is is in humans. In fact I dont believe they even think about it, I believe its more closely related to motor instincts and excitement stimulation as well a dominance/submission. Same as they are willing to tear, kick, claw or head butt the hell out of each other at any given moment.

Wrong.
Bonobos, for one, have been known in captivity to have sex as frequently as every hour and a half. They're promiscuous little bastards. Secondly, it's not transexual animals, it's gay animals. And you cannot seriously be denying that homosexual behavior has been observed in many, many species of animals for a long time.

I dont feel there is the unawareness that people claim. Just perhaps a larger lack of tolerance in some people, this may be a human right and as I said laws are in place against violence.

Intolerance is, I guess, a human right. So is racism. Does this mean we shouldn't try to suppress racism?
Also, those laws are enforced by people. People who may, and frequently are, intolerant. And thus may, and frequently do, turn a blind eye to the beatings of the people they hate (i.e. blacks, gays, Jews).

I also dont think a comparison on the street or out in the big world to inside our schools is remotely similiar. Theres a big difference between passing on the street and being confined to a public eductional building all day with a boy running around dressed like a girl trying to be sexy. You have no choice, its there "in your face". I do not believe for a second this belongs in school

"In your face" as in "happening in the same large building as you?" Nobody is forced to watch. Besides which, so what if they see it? Is there a law against men wearing skirts? No, there actually isn't. Also, "trying to be sexy?" You're continuing in your illogical assumption that transgender people dress the way they do in order to attract members of the opposite sex. For one thing, transgender people are not necessarily gay, and in fact usually aren't. Therefore a transgender boy is more likely to identify as a lesbian, and thus be after girls.

there are alot of things I dont believe belong in school and I have mentioned some of them.

Education for one, apparently...

I know teenagers are a highly volatile group and it has been on a steady increase... so many anger issues. This should be addressed as a whole, but no one knows what to do about it. As pertaining to this very topic, hormones or whatever the scientific community are calling them these days are impossible to defeat and a real nightmare in "the comming of age" period. Everyone thats slightly different is hazed to some degree and this increases as the extent of the "different" increases. No doubt its wrong, but no doubt its some natural process at work and personal degrees will vary.

...and no doubt when left unaddressed it can turn violent.
What is with this attitude?
"It's just the way things are. No use trying to do anything about it"
That's a terrible attitude to take.

If you really want to educate students on the girlyish/boy/visa versa, do it in biology class. You could provide photos, diagrams and facts on the physical development process then delve into the psychological issues... {as everyones jaw drops}... yes now this would really touch on everyones sensitivity, why ? because it would clearly show early development process gone astray from the norm.

That's clearly a good idea. Instead of teaching people that transgender people are still human beings, lets teach them that they're freaks of nature.
Besides which, the jury is still out on how this works with regards to genetics, the development process, etc, so you actually can't teach it.

This is not what the movements protecting rights of these people want, they just want the rights.

How despicable!

However in reality I believe fully educating people on what went wrong biologically is the only path to this understanding some are crying for. But no, we just want to say "their different, leave them alone"... but this is obvious, yet for some reason... some people, just dont leave people alone... especially when we are dealing with teenagers.

And again with the developmental issues...genetic variation =/= something going wrong.

Now my other point was, perhaps people with these internal and physical differences also need an indepth education on human behavior and brought to an understanding of how to avoid conflicts.

seeing as how they go seeking them out and all.
The education is called life. As far as conflicts go, you fail to realize that this conflict-seeking you keep talking about is what I would call "not hiding shit"

So now we have just tied up an entire year of high school education...... lol So yea, I really do know dress codes and stricter student behavior tolerances on all involved are the quickest answer... but then this violates "personal rights" and the ever increasing need in some youth for personal identification, which is a joke to me that I wont get into

Let's see...
A. WTF? A year of high school education? Try 1 period in the auditorium
B. No, they aren't an answer for reasons already explained.
C. OMG INDIVIDUALS! WHAT A JOKE! Seriously, someone on a metal forum shouldn't be criticizing individualism.

Originally Posted by razoredge

As far as I know phobia = fear ? Well bullshit then, some people are just grossed out... deal with it... they arent making it up.... it gives them the creeps... I guess they are the ones with the unnatural issues ?

Try "irrational." Ever seen a man in a kilt?

Am I going to find a picture of a transexual Bonobo (which I never even heard of) or a Dolphin ? Didnt think so. Does this pertain to all species of animals and therefore should pertain to all species of men ?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15750604/
http://www.livescience.com/bestimg/i...cat=gayanimals

Sorry, you fail again.

So you deny what motivates stimulation in animals ? You feel one is just born and decides he/she only wants to have sex with the same kind ? dayly ?

WEAK.
Considering that you're speaking from ignorance, you might want to not talk. Lifelong homosexual partnerships between animals have been observed.

Did the Greek men get married ? Commit to each other for life ? Or just get freaking horney ?

Considering they were fucking little boys I should hope not. Are you saying that bisexuality is fine but homosexuality is a perversion of nature? You seem to be grasping at straws here...

Strays from the norm are not why we exist, dont give me the single cell thing. Man and the same animals have been around for thousands of years long after the first cell. Are you trying to tell me that nature is currently trying to create a breed of same sex humans ? A breed of down syndrome children or name any of the other hundreds of development faults.

Down syndrome is a terrible analogy since it comes from an actual failure in the process of fertilization, rather than from a transcription error or genetic variation.
Also, I will give you the single cell thing. Fuck you, it's a valid point.

Contraseption is not necessary in the rest of the living world because it has checks and balances, survival of the fittest, natural predators and starvation if over population occurs. In fact population is directly influenced in birth rate/litter size according to population and food sources. Mankind no longer has checks and balances and that is why weaker links are on the rise.

Weaker links such as all sorts of things that you don't see as weak links, such as being short or bald or ugly. Should our biology classes teach us about what went wrong there?

I was raised "religious" as in went to church and said now I lay me down to sleep for a breif period but my family was far from a religious extreme. they certainly never made me say "now I lay me down to sleep... but never with a man" I personally havent been religious since I was ? 12 14 ? but never did I hear anything about not supposed to have same sex-sex or anything about sex for that matter... in fact I had my eyes all over girls long before I even knew why, then when I did hear about sex with girls I had still not heard about same sex-sex ? Are you trying to tell me I should have been educated in the possibilities first ? Should have researched surveys, studies of monkeys and fruit flys and indulged the scientific community for my sex ed ? Thus left wonder why I didnt have my eyes all over the boys as well ?

I'm trying to understand what the fuck you're trying to say.
First, let's start with the implication that the religious crowd doesn't oppose homosexuality.

Okay, that's done.
Next, should you have been informed as to the existence of homosexuality? Yes, frankly, I think that in sex ed classes a brief lesson on homosexuality would be useful. As far as being told about the options, you're gonna be attracted to whoever you're gonna be attracted to, so it's not like that's an issue.

I would propose I came by my sexuality alot more naturally than is allowed today and I propose that is also how the human race survived and found its sexualality all these millenniums... and without doctors and hospitols to patch us up and the scientific community and special interests groups to keep our heads straight.... its a complete miracle, imagine that.

Gay people have been fucking each other up the ass for thousands of years without anyone telling them that men could also bone each other. This is a terrible argument.

[The Poona of Peshwa]

Originally Posted by razoredge

I do base my views on what I openly see and evaluate and I believe I do it fairly. I dont need some "scientist" or bias interpretation of some study to see things for what they are. I would suggest others do the same, that is how the strong survived and how the fairly non disfunctional people became the majority... grit, practical, resourceful, logical and attentive... not because some scientist proposed a hypothisis and collected data or some high pressure interest group told them how to act and think.

Yeah, don't we all yearn for the days of the Aztec, who ripped out beating hearts by the hundred to ensure the health of the harvest?

I am not in favour of sex-change operations, I'm not friends with any trannies, really I don't know if I've ever met one. I'm really more sypathetic to your argument than you think. My only real argument with your ideas - as I've said several times - is that you think that homophobia is a normal reaction to people whose genetic makeup is somehow flawed. I don't think you've argued persuasively on this point beyond what you feel in your gut. That's not philosophy.

[WeAreTheLastMen]

Originally Posted by WeAreInFlames

First, let's start with the implication that the religious crowd doesn't oppose homosexuality.

Okay, that's done.

I won't dispute your conclusion, just the pic you used. That's a guy from Fred Phelps' church. He pretty much believes, everyone outside his family is going to hell, including all other Christians (especially Catholics). He believes god hates the entire world and is punishing us, and that 9/11 was well deserved retribution, etc. So... not at all representative of the "religious crowd".

However, most monotheistic religions believe it's a sin to engage in homosexual activities (although they don't "oppose" homosexuality in itself)

[WeAreInFlames]

oh, really? I just searched for random pictures of God hating fags.
But yeah, most major religions condemn gay sex. And Christians have been especially active in condemning homosexuality, supporting the gay marriage ban, and so on.