Transgender

[razoredge]

The figures are irrelevant because they throw everything in there regardless of the extreme. I know anxioty and depression can be an extreme... but I also know it can be nothing but another day. Then they are taken from polls - "have you ever been depressed?".... "well..... yes" baboom MENTAL DISORDER! "have you ever felt anxious?" "well....... yes" baboom another MENTAL DISORDER ! "We need to crank out some more drugs... these people need us" "Have you ever taken drugs or drank alcohol"... "well..... yea" baboom - MENTAL DISORDER !

Hey ride their train if it pleases you.

When you get a chance to apply some observation, and take it, you might have some credentials yourself. Then you would know animals dont engage in sex as humans do. If you knew what you were reading this would have rung a bell, which it may have because great selective qouter separator deleter that you are you ommited it......[quote]Animal sexual behavior takes many different forms, even within the same species and the motivations for and implications of their behaviors have yet to be fully understood as most species have yet to be studied.[/QUOTE]

I didnt invent ball assed, its in high use and of great concern these days, but then you.. Littledoo.. get all your info from the media so you wouldnt know.

[10293847]

Originally Posted by WeAreInFlames

This OP could get a little long. Bear with me, or skip down to the TLDR section.

Okay, so. Today was the Day Of Silence at my school. For those who don't know, the day of silence is when some people elect not to speak at all for an entire day to symbolize the silence society imposes on the LGBT community. Today is not the national date, but my school did it today.

Yesterday was the Day of Dialogue. The Day of Dialogue is not a national thing, but plenty of schools do it. Basically, speakers came in and talked in the auditorium about stuff pertinent to LGBT stuff.

I wasn't particularly interested by the presentations, but it did get me thinking about transgender people.

First off: definition of transgender.
Transgender people are people who identify as a gender other than what they were born as. So, a woman who sees herself as a man. These people still have the anatomy of their birth gender. Some choose to "medically transition," which can mean either taking hormones or going all the way and having surgery. Most transgender people don't medically transition.

Okay, so. This is not a thread about gay people. I will briefly summarize my views on gays, lesbians, and bisexuals.
It doesn't hurt me or anyone else. It makes them happy. Therefore, there's nothing morally wrong with it.
I also believe that it's biological and natural. Since there are many instances of homosexuality among animals, this isn't really debatable.

Let that be the last mention of homosexuals in this thread.

Anyhow. So I was thinking about transgenders, and I feel like it's wrong. A person is born either a man or a woman. I think we need to accept that. You are what you are. This shouldn't prevent you from doing anything, but there are some things in life that you have to accept, and I feel like this is one of them. Insisting that you feel like a man is just denying reality. It's kind of childish.

Another thing is that it reinforces gender roles. If you find it necessary to see yourself as a woman in order to wear a skirt, or to see yourself as a man in order to play football or have sex with women, that reinforces traditional gender roles. I feel that said gender roles are outdated and restrictive. My basic philosophy is that people should be free to do what they want that doesn't hurt others. Gender roles restrict what someone can do. By seeing yourself as the opposite gender, I feel like this gives implicit acknowledgment to these gender roles.

However, I don't think that being transgender is wrong. I recognize that this is my opinion, and would never try to enforce it on others. I support the establishment of a national bill outlawing workplace discrimination against transgender people.

I apologize for the incoherence and ramblingness of this post, as well as for all the words that aren't real words. Anyhow, please share your thoughts.


TLDR Version: What's your opinion on trannys?

I find it interesting that I have stumbled upon this thread. I was listening to NPR (National Public Radio) the other day, and there was an hour special regarding this issue.

It was about a person born a male who had, ever since their parents could detect, acted like a girl. From the whole playing with dolls, wearing skirts, and having long hair examples. This person's parents were typical and nothing was out of the ordinary in this child's upbringing. No matter what the parents did to change him to become more like a male, it did not work.

They spoke with many specialists and psychologists regarding their child, and there were two options they received: One, would be to allow the child to continue to act like a girl and that if this person felt more comfortable with being a girl, so be it. The problem with this was that the other boys in the school would beat him up because he was acting like a girl. And the fear would be that this person would sustain even more psychological damage with the physical abuse along with the emotional. The other option was to delve deeper into possible psychological issues and to try to, "fix" this person by changing his mindset into one of a male.

Now at this point, one could say, "Why are you trying to change this person into something they are not comfortable with?" The answer would be to bring up another example. In the past, when there were signs of one displaying homosexual leanings, they would be taken to a psychologist to, "fix" this "problem". Today, we see homosexuality as a natural occurence, and so why couldn't it be possible that one was born with a sex that is not natural to them? It doesn't seem like much of a difference to me to see one who is comfortable with their sex and happens to enjoy their same sex, and one who is not comfortable with their own sex and finds the opposite sex attractive.

Ultimately, what occured in this case was this: When this child was around sixteen, they allowed their son to fully embrace the desire to become a female, and she began to wear female clothes, walk like a female would, and essentially become a female, until she was finally able to have the surgery to match her outside with her inside.

She has not been happier, and her parents have slowly began to embrace their daughter and have said goodbye to their son.

I think in time, these people will be seen no differently than a gay person. I don't think there is any reason at all to stop one from doing what they wish.

[razoredge]

Nice to see someone that can actually organize their thoughts. I too have seen and listened to many programs on this controvercial subject over the course of decades. However I still dont believe it has a place around school children for a multitude of reasons. Everyone is stopped from doing as they wish for one reason or another.

[WeAreInFlames]

Originally Posted by razoredge

The figures are irrelevant because they throw everything in there regardless of the extreme. I know anxioty and depression can be an extreme... but I also know it can be nothing but another day.

If it's depression extreme enough to be diagnosed as clinical depression, it's not a joke. To be included in this it would have to be clinical depression. Have you ever been diagnosed with clinical depression?

Then they are taken from polls - "have you ever been depressed?".... "well..... yes" baboom MENTAL DISORDER! "have you ever felt anxious?" "well....... yes" baboom another MENTAL DISORDER !

Do you know this for a fact or are you making shit up?

"We need to crank out some more drugs... these people need us" "Have you ever taken drugs or drank alcohol"... "well..... yea" baboom - MENTAL DISORDER !

Yes, that's just how it happens.

When you get a chance to apply some observation, and take it, you might have some credentials yourself.

He said, neatly sidestepping the question. I take it, then, that you have no credentials.

Then you would know animals dont engage in sex as humans do.

It's the other way around, tbh. Ever heard of "doggy-style?"

[quote]Animal sexual behavior takes many different forms, even within the same species and the motivations for and implications of their behaviors have yet to be fully understood as most species have yet to be studied.[/QUOTE]
Right. The same applies to humanity. The fact remains that they have homosexual intercourse.

I didnt invent ball assed, its in high use and of great concern these days

Where?

but then you.. Littledoo.. get all your info from the media so you wouldnt know.

Does this mean I should be getting my news from people who use the phrase "ball-assed" frequently? Because that seems like a bad call.

Originally Posted by 10293847

I find it interesting that I have stumbled upon this thread. I was listening to NPR (National Public Radio) the other day, and there was an hour special regarding this issue.

It was about a person born a male who had, ever since their parents could detect, acted like a girl. From the whole playing with dolls, wearing skirts, and having long hair examples. This person's parents were typical and nothing was out of the ordinary in this child's upbringing. No matter what the parents did to change him to become more like a male, it did not work.

They spoke with many specialists and psychologists regarding their child, and there were two options they received: One, would be to allow the child to continue to act like a girl and that if this person felt more comfortable with being a girl, so be it. The problem with this was that the other boys in the school would beat him up because he was acting like a girl. And the fear would be that this person would sustain even more psychological damage with the physical abuse along with the emotional. The other option was to delve deeper into possible psychological issues and to try to, "fix" this person by changing his mindset into one of a male.

Now at this point, one could say, "Why are you trying to change this person into something they are not comfortable with?" The answer would be to bring up another example. In the past, when there were signs of one displaying homosexual leanings, they would be taken to a psychologist to, "fix" this "problem". Today, we see homosexuality as a natural occurence, and so why couldn't it be possible that one was born with a sex that is not natural to them? It doesn't seem like much of a difference to me to see one who is comfortable with their sex and happens to enjoy their same sex, and one who is not comfortable with their own sex and finds the opposite sex attractive.

Ultimately, what occured in this case was this: When this child was around sixteen, they allowed their son to fully embrace the desire to become a female, and she began to wear female clothes, walk like a female would, and essentially become a female, until she was finally able to have the surgery to match her outside with her inside.

She has not been happier, and her parents have slowly began to embrace their daughter and have said goodbye to their son.

I think in time, these people will be seen no differently than a gay person. I don't think there is any reason at all to stop one from doing what they wish.

That was very interesting. I don't think we can take this as representative of any greater truth, but it is interesting. I wasn't aware that behavior of that sort started that early - I believe most transsexuals don't begin to exhibit such behavior until puberty. But it is an interesting dilemma for the parents. Funny...I listen to NPR all the time, but I guess I missed that.

I wouldn't expect it to make her happier, though - studies have shown that most people have a certain level of happiness and that they will generally remain at about that level except in extreme circumstances.

[Einherjar86]

InFlames, I know you said you didn't want to bring up homosexuality anymore, but it seems that it's being discussed anyway. I think that the fact that homosexuality occurs in animals doesn't make it "natural." This is my own personal opinion, and I don't want to ruffle any feathers. I have no problem with homosexuals. The choices they make are their own. I agree with you; they're not hurting anyone, and they're happy. I also believe that if we view homosexuality within a moral scope, we can't call it "wrong." There's nothing morally wrong about it. However, I don't believe that makes it natural. The fact remains that reproduction is impossible in a homosexual relationship (as far as I know), and there is a high risk of diseases. The anus was intended for the purpose of excreting waste from our bodies. It was not intended as an orifice for pleasure.

The only reason that the boy in the NPR story wanted to do "girl" things is because our society has created specific roles that boys and girls are encouraged to participate in. The characteristics of males and females are not inherently passed on. The boy wanting to be Dorothy and/or playing with dolls are simply choices that our society frowns upon. In a society without such strict and "gendered" laws, this wouldn't be an issue. The boy would be allowed to play with whatever toy he wanted without the threat of being socially exiled. Lastly, the children in that story are far younger than the age at which boys and girls begin to feel attraction and arousal for one another. Just because he doesn't want to play with action figures doesn't mean he won't feel attracted towards women. In an ideal society, parents shouldn't (and wouldn't) worry about such things. However, in our society they do, and at an early stage they begin indoctrinating the child into the opposite gender just because he/she seems to be acting that way. The child should be treated without any kind of intervention. The NPR article said that one pair of parents even began calling their son "she," because he exhibited female characteristics. I don't agree with this at all. The child possesses male reproductive organs and should be referred to as such until the time comes when "he" admits that he wishes to be known as a "she."

What are your thoughts all this?

EDIT: thought this was the evolution thread; I deleted that beginning part about it.

[BlackMetalWhiteGuy]

Originally Posted by Einherjar86

The fact remains that reproduction is impossible in a homosexual relationship (as far as I know), and there is a high risk of diseases. The anus was intended for the purpose of excreting waste from our bodies. It was not intended as an orifice for pleasure.

Many homosexual couples have oral sex exclusively and choose not to engage in anal sex. Also, due to the differences between male and female genetalia, women are at eight times the risk of contracting an STD through unprotected intercourse than a man is. Thus, unless there's some sort of penetration involved, sexual acts between homosexuals are generally safer than between heterosexual couples.

Originally Posted by Einherjar86

The characteristics of males and females are not inherently passed on. The boy wanting to be Dorothy and/or playing with dolls are simply choices that our society frowns upon. In a society without such strict and "gendered" laws, this wouldn't be an issue.

Although there are certain characteristics that are not predominantly male or female outside of a social context, studies have shown that even in children who have not been raised by gender-biasing parents, male and female children still prefer different types of games and socialize differently, as well.

[thrashgirl]

Originally Posted by razoredge

However I still dont believe it has a place around school children for a multitude of reasons.

Why not?

[WeAreInFlames]

Originally Posted by Einherjar86

InFlames, I know you said you didn't want to bring up homosexuality anymore, but it seems that it's being discussed anyway. I think that the fact that homosexuality occurs in animals doesn't make it "natural." This is my own personal opinion, and I don't want to ruffle any feathers. I have no problem with homosexuals. The choices they make are their own. I agree with you; they're not hurting anyone, and they're happy. I also believe that if we view homosexuality within a moral scope, we can't call it "wrong." There's nothing morally wrong about it. However, I don't believe that makes it natural. The fact remains that reproduction is impossible in a homosexual relationship (as far as I know), and there is a high risk of diseases. The anus was intended for the purpose of excreting waste from our bodies. It was not intended as an orifice for pleasure.

I have to agree on every point here. However, whether something is "natural" or not is hard to establish, because you have to define natural, which in this case is hard. I don't think it's a significant point, though.

The only reason that the boy in the NPR story wanted to do "girl" things is because our society has created specific roles that boys and girls are encouraged to participate in.

That's my thought - that the boy was inclined to do some things, and in order to do those things had to accept a certain identity.

The characteristics of males and females are not inherently passed on. The boy wanting to be Dorothy and/or playing with dolls are simply choices that our society frowns upon. In a society without such strict and "gendered" laws, this wouldn't be an issue. The boy would be allowed to play with whatever toy he wanted without the threat of being socially exiled. Lastly, the children in that story are far younger than the age at which boys and girls begin to feel attraction and arousal for one another. Just because he doesn't want to play with action figures doesn't mean he won't feel attracted towards women.

This is true, although I'm hesitant to link gender identity so completely to sexual preference - most, but not all, transsexuals retain their sexual preference, and most are straight. I'm not sure how early it's possible to begin being aware of your own orientation.

In an ideal society, parents shouldn't (and wouldn't) worry about such things. However, in our society they do, and at an early stage they begin indoctrinating the child into the opposite gender just because he/she seems to be acting that way. The child should be treated without any kind of intervention. The NPR article said that one pair of parents even began calling their son "she," because he exhibited female characteristics. I don't agree with this at all. The child possesses male reproductive organs and should be referred to as such until the time comes when "he" admits that he wishes to be known as a "she."

Definitely. It's more or less like really overbearing parents that want their kid to be a doctor or a baseball star or whatever and pressure them to play baseball or excel in biology - that's generally considered bad parenting, so think how much worse it is when applied to something so fundamental to one's sense of self as sexual orientation.

Originally Posted by BlackMetalWhiteGuy

Many homosexual couples have oral sex exclusively and choose not to engage in anal sex. Also, due to the differences between male and female genetalia, women are at eight times the risk of contracting an STD through unprotected intercourse than a man is. Thus, unless there's some sort of penetration involved, sexual acts between homosexuals are generally safer than between heterosexual couples.

True, but irrelevant - his point was that reproduction only occurs based on one pairing, and so that is the natural pairing. I agree with this.

Although there are certain characteristics that are not predominantly male or female outside of a social context, studies have shown that even in children who have not been raised by gender-biasing parents, male and female children still prefer different types of games and socialize differently, as well.

Yeah, there are obviously some important differences between male and female, but also remember that pressure to conform to gender roles comes from everywhere, not just the parents. Also remember that even without meaning to parents can affect this stuff - buying girls dresses and boys shorts means that while boys can play games involving running around, a girl in a skirt can't really join in.

[razoredge]

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