The Responsibility of Man

[Blowtus]

Originally Posted by razoredge

I proudly stand for these humanistic values, get the fuck off my back, I will not lower my values and I will not respect a blood sucking insect. Its all simple shit to me, no brainer stuff.

I think this is one of the problems being encountered with your statements. You find it 'simple' and accept it, but the rest of us involved in the discussion are discussing *why* such things occur, and *why* they should hold any sway over us. Generally once 'simple' things are looked upon closely they are seen to be not nearly so 'simple' at all. This is I think a lot of the interest in philosophy, not accepting what is simply apparent but questioning reasons for such and trying to understand.

[Seditious]

Originally Posted by Blowtus

I think this is one of the problems being encountered with your statements. You find it 'simple' and accept it, but the rest of us involved in the discussion are discussing *why* such things occur, and *why* they should hold any sway over us. Generally once 'simple' things are looked upon closely they are seen to be not nearly so 'simple' at all. This is I think a lot of the interest in philosophy, not accepting what is simply apparent but questioning reasons for such and trying to understand.

indeed. Like science, philosophy appreciates the unreliability of intuition, and where science depends on empirical evidence for support, philosophy must rely on the skepticism and reasoning of others to determine what ideas are more likely to be closer to the truth than others.

[Blowtus]

Originally Posted by razoredge

If I didnt appreaciate the intellegence here, I would be hangin with those of simpler notions, would I not ? I just dont like it used against me, which it has been, deny if you want, I have clear vision and also get frustrated trying to decifer the word play, that is all. Give me credit for not saying anything for along time.

Having the intelligence of those here used 'against me' is what I find *best* about this place...

[Seditious]

Originally Posted by razoredge

look, I dont know what a vegan is, dont really care in this application.

it takes VERY little time and trouble to google the words "vegan definition". I'm disappointed you follow up this statement with one about how proud you are about the efforts you're willing to make.

Originally Posted by razoredge

I care about one thing and one thing only, that I dont effect anyone elses life through my greed and that they do not affect mine.

and some people will say 'I care about one thing and one thing only, that I dont effect any other white people's lives through my greed and that they do not affect mine.'

nobody cares just what exactly your, or anyone else's, opinions happen to be; only your reasons for having them. The question isn't 'what do you believe?' but rather 'why should I believe what you do?'

If you merely want to assert what you believe in, you need to find yourself a church or a protest march, not a philosophy forum.

Originally Posted by razoredge

I will not respect a blood sucking insect. Its all simple shit to me, no brainer stuff.

like Hitler might have said about a Jew? or an early American about a 'nigger'?
no brainers... and that's really the problem.

[Seditious]

Originally Posted by Blowtus

Yep... so we're either left with 'ends' that we define which are interchangeable, or 'ends' that seem to have no power to describe action. I guess it's getting kind of semantic here. Somewhere in the combination of 'self satisfaction' and 'personal values' seems to lie what I'm after - I guess because I'm not convinced that values arise consciously out of any self satisfaction drive, they can not be altered at will, they are as much a part of us as the 'self satisfaction' drive.

yea, I think you're hinting at something really important here. it's getting late here, I think we should definitely explore this. post what comes to mind, and I'll try to bounce back some ideas tomorrow when I'm refreshed and relaxed if not tonight.

[Blowtus]

In some reading on utilitarianism today I came across a few points relevant to our discussion. I have in some sense accused you of what Dennett terms 'greedy reductionism' - that by looking to underlying factors you in effect explain away what is being explained. I now quite strongly want to see 'values' as ends in themselves, and 'satisfaction in relation to x value' as the designation that the end has been or will be, at least partially fulfilled. I don't think satisfaction can exist independently, it is always 'the satisfaction *of* something'. Pretty much the paradox of hedonism, I think.

[Silver Incubus]

If the 'ends' are what determines values and there is more then one value that can create the end, what is the most productive value to reach that end? Generally I think values come in a few different ways. The first and most changeable is Authoritarian values such as religion and laws. These are set by others and are intended to be followed. The next set are personal values, still possibly influenced by the Authoritarian/societal norms, but are harder to change because the person came to those values based on personal experience. The third set of values are determined through logical debate(much like is going on here) and they tend to be the hardest to accept because they may directly be in opposition to what you have either experience or have been told by members of authority. I think values are really tested in the most extreme situations where the common everyday events do not apply. Such as cannibalism to survive when the plane crashes in a mountain. I'm finding that values that tend to go towards a more naturalistic sense(survival, happiness of yourself and loved ones) are the more valid ones. Those ends can be justified by your ability to live. I mean what good are having values that get you killed? Unless of course your values determine that the greater good of humanity is more important than the good of a few, aka utilitarianism. I know for many people it is hard to change values because they are hard wired in your brain from when you are a child by your parents and other forms of authority and being able to step outside of your own values and ends to see how and what they are determined from is very useful in doing some in-mind housekeeping of junk values that are baseless, ignorant, and possibly harmful in one way or another.

Sorry for the rant, I'm sure I just said nothing new.

[razoredge]

I wonder if conscience and compassion have any effect

[Seditious]

Originally Posted by razoredge

I wonder if conscience and compassion have any effect

There's a quote I have to paraphrase, unable to track down just who said it: 'if emotions couldn't influence behavior they would have no use at all'.

[Seditious]

Originally Posted by Blowtus

I have in some sense accused you of what Dennett terms 'greedy reductionism' - that by looking to underlying factors you in effect explain away what is being explained.

interesting. I don't think I'd disagree with that any more than when skeptics 'explain away' the magic of twin babies (it's not that 'a man impregnated a woman, and a god impregnated a woman, and one of the two brothers is a divine man' as an ancient myth has it), or god's miracles, or alien UFOs, or any of that stuff - you can use psychology and science to show why people come to the explanations they do, and give a more solid explanation for what it really is. it's not an argument against it, or a condemnation of it, just an accurate accessment of the process being undertaken.

Originally Posted by Blowtus

I now quite strongly want to see 'values' as ends in themselves, and 'satisfaction in relation to x value' as the designation that the end has been or will be, at least partially fulfilled. I don't think satisfaction can exist independently, it is always 'the satisfaction *of* something'. Pretty much the paradox of hedonism, I think.

I'm not sure about the phrasing of your first sentence there, but I'll pursue the second:
I think that relies heavily on a misunderstanding---treating all things as emotions; 'satisfaction' as synonymous with 'pleasure', where I've clarified 'pleasure' itself is a means toward satisfaction---the state in which you do not desire to seek further pleasure.