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Old September 8th, 2009, 07:22 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Religion and Sience

Hello, the other day this happened to me: I was on the phone with a lady freind of mine we were having a rather interesting talk about history and arts. Before i go on let me fill you in, I'm an atheist, she attends a private christian school. Now i can go on, I mention dinosaurs. She pauses and says these words to me......"You know thats a hoax right?". After a couple minutes of conversation on it i realized that was actually her opinion. THE CHRISTIAN SCHOOL TAUGHT HER THAT DINOSAURS WERE A HOAX!!!!!!!!! It just made me think once again about the taunting teachings of religion....stories like this anyone?
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Old September 8th, 2009, 08:02 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Science?

Did anyone ever teach you that dinosaurs were not a hoax?
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Old September 8th, 2009, 02:37 PM   #3 (permalink)
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yes, along with the logic of near proven science and jazz......
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Old September 8th, 2009, 04:31 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Hello, the other day this happened to me: I was on the phone with a lady freind of mine we were having a rather interesting talk about history and arts. Before i go on let me fill you in, I'm an atheist, she attends a private christian school. Now i can go on, I mention dinosaurs. She pauses and says these words to me......"You know thats a hoax right?". After a couple minutes of conversation on it i realized that was actually her opinion. THE CHRISTIAN SCHOOL TAUGHT HER THAT DINOSAURS WERE A HOAX!!!!!!!!! It just made me think once again about the taunting teachings of religion....stories like this anyone?
there's this brand new book called "Evolution The First Four Billion Years" Edited by Micheal Ruse & Joseph Travis Foreward by Edward O. Wilson
think you could probably buy it on Amazon and give it to her for a Christmas present or something
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Old September 9th, 2009, 02:37 PM   #5 (permalink)
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The problem isn't what religion teaches but how people recieve the information. I mean, couldn't she go and do her own little researches about this subject and look at it from a scientific perspective and make sure if if religion (words of God of creation) and what science (the observation of the creation) go hand and hand or not and then make your own stand.
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Old September 9th, 2009, 09:08 PM   #6 (permalink)
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The problem isn't what religion teaches but how people recieve the information. I mean, couldn't she go and do her own little researches about this subject and look at it from a scientific perspective and make sure if if religion (words of God of creation) and what science (the observation of the creation) go hand and hand or not and then make your own stand.
Most people who are brought up in a fundamentalist environment aren't just discouraged from persuing independent research or objectively evaluating ideas, they're actually punished for their "disobedience" and in many cases restricted from even having access to educational sources other than those that have been prescreened for their conformity to a predetermined set of ideals that are approved by their church. Additionally, they are conditioned from a very young age to believe that those who disagree with them have been lead astray by the devil himself and that it is their holy duty to lead those misguided souls onto the "true" path.

This is why it's such a common occurance to witness such groups proselytizing college students on campuses across the nation, aggressively challenging the education of others (despite lacking any comparable education, themselves) and taking an ironic and hostile offense to any challenge to their own beliefs. They honestly believe that they are fighting God's war and that they are doing it for the good of those whom they are attacking.

Back to the original question though; yes, she could look theoretically look up the facts for herself, but it is unlikely that she is even aware that more reputable sources exist. Many fundamentalist groups take it upon themselves to print their own reference sources full of "evidence" to the contrary of what is commonly accepted by the scientific community, so most of these people will actually grow up believing that they are well informed.

For example, I had a friend in college who was a member of an orthodox religion that passed out "educational" pamphlets to its youth members explaining the "inaccuraies" of science with regard to the age of the Earth. It stated that fossils were formed by the devil after clay deposits from Noah's flood permiated many rock layers, thus entering Satan's domain. It also claimed that the Grand Canyon was formed during Noah's flood.

EDIT: For information on other fundamentalist Christian denominations, look up the documentary "Jesus Camp," and the internet phenomenon "Jesus Probably Rode Dinosaurs."
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Old September 10th, 2009, 09:28 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Personally, if someone forbids me to get an information, that makes me believe that the information is highly important and may cause troubles to the one who prevented me. But, dude, they have internet right? I know it's full of shit but there are a lot, A LOT of reliable resources. If my religion ever prevents me to look up for any kind of information and investigate it's correctness, i would never follow it lol, but it doesn't, and that's why i still embracing it.
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Old September 10th, 2009, 10:47 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Most people who are brought up in a fundamentalist environment aren't just discouraged from persuing independent research or objectively evaluating ideas, they're actually punished for their "disobedience" and in many cases restricted from even having access to educational sources other than those that have been prescreened for their conformity to a predetermined set of ideals that are approved by their church. Additionally, they are conditioned from a very young age to believe that those who disagree with them have been lead astray by the devil himself and that it is their holy duty to lead those misguided souls onto the "true" path.

This is why it's such a common occurance to witness such groups proselytizing college students on campuses across the nation, aggressively challenging the education of others (despite lacking any comparable education, themselves) and taking an ironic and hostile offense to any challenge to their own beliefs. They honestly believe that they are fighting God's war and that they are doing it for the good of those whom they are attacking.

Back to the original question though; yes, she could look theoretically look up the facts for herself, but it is unlikely that she is even aware that more reputable sources exist. Many fundamentalist groups take it upon themselves to print their own reference sources full of "evidence" to the contrary of what is commonly accepted by the scientific community, so most of these people will actually grow up believing that they are well informed.

For example, I had a friend in college who was a member of an orthodox religion that passed out "educational" pamphlets to its youth members explaining the "inaccuraies" of science with regard to the age of the Earth. It stated that fossils were formed by the devil after clay deposits from Noah's flood permiated many rock layers, thus entering Satan's domain. It also claimed that the Grand Canyon was formed during Noah's flood.

EDIT: For information on other fundamentalist Christian denominations, look up the documentary "Jesus Camp," and the internet phenomenon "Jesus Probably Rode Dinosaurs."
i kinda get freaked out by "young earth" creationists that claim that "noah's flood" was the "catastrophe" that "killed the dinosaurs", if dinosaurs still existed when Noah's flood happened, then why were they not actually on the ark?

"old earth" creationism makes a hell of a lot more sense than saying that "carbon dating is innacurate because of Satan"
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Old September 10th, 2009, 12:10 PM   #9 (permalink)
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if dinosaurs still existed when Noah's flood happened, then why were they not actually on the ark?
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Old September 10th, 2009, 12:51 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Personally, if someone forbids me to get an information, that makes me believe that the information is highly important and may cause troubles to the one who prevented me. But, dude, they have internet right? I know it's full of shit but there are a lot, A LOT of reliable resources. If my religion ever prevents me to look up for any kind of information and investigate it's correctness, i would never follow it lol, but it doesn't, and that's why i still embracing it.
I know exactly what you mean, because I am the same way. It seems obvious to us that certain information is restricted because knowledge is power and that power threatens not just their faith, but their entire way of life. Consequently, restricting information is the only reliable method of perpetuating their agenda without risk of losing their future generations to what they honestly perceive to be the greatest evil that exists.

By contrast, we're free to look up as much of their propaganda as we so choose because to an objective, well informed reader, their "information" isn't threatening at all; it's hilarious! In fact, that's why it's so difficult to tell whether this site is truly operated by fundamentalists, or if it's a satire published by atheists as a parody of far-right-wing Christians.

Of course, this is still overlooking the fact that most people don't have the initiative to fact check their opinions through a peer-reviewed, impartial publisher, especially at risk of learning that their entire way of life is based on a fallacy. Most people are not cognitively prepared to accept that their entire community has been lying to them for their entire lives and will aggressively oppose any notion of such a phenomenon, regardless of overwhelming evidence. However, it would be unlikely for any one of them to attempt such a thing anyway, because their culture reinforces their ignorance by celebrating it and they are constanting and consistently stroking each others' egos over it.

As I said before though, most of these people already believe that they are well informed and thus have no ambition to persue additional research. This is why when you challenge the point of one of those campus-crashing fundies, they promtly interupt you with something like "don't you talk to me about FACTS! I HAVE the FACTS!" (when arguing in text form, they will invariably capitalize the word "facts"). Interrupting you and claiming to have "real" facts is partly an attempt to undermine your point so that they will appear to be in control of the situation, giving bystanders the impression that they (the fundies, not the bystanders) are the sole authoritative force in the discussion, but it is also a desperation attempt to prevent, or at least to limit, exposure to any piece of information that may challenge their faith. This of course helps to reafirm their own faith to themselves and to their peers, but also implements a strong directional bias with regard to the information's proportional representation. This way, if "FACTS" alone aren't convincing enough, perhaps their sheer volume will compensate for any lack of sense.
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i kinda get freaked out by "young earth" creationists that claim that "noah's flood" was the "catastrophe" that "killed the dinosaurs", if dinosaurs still existed when Noah's flood happened, then why were they not actually on the ark?

"old earth" creationism makes a hell of a lot more sense than saying that "carbon dating is innacurate because of Satan"
As I mentioned above, I can't tell if this site is serious or satire (though I'm pretty sure it's satire), but if you scroll down to Professor Giraffenstein & Pepper's box, the very first question refers to dinosaurs being on the ark and links to an article about an African trek with a cryptozoologist to find a North American Apatosaurus.
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Old September 12th, 2009, 12:42 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Well, then again you don't know for sure that it ISN'T a hoax. You've never gone and checked if those bones were real. I mean, how do you know some alien lizard people didn't bury the remnants of their ancestors on Earth and inspired people to start looking for them through people working for them on Earth?

Do you know this? Of course it's absurd, but so is the idea we exist at all, given the odds
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Old September 14th, 2009, 07:50 PM   #12 (permalink)
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links to an article about an African trek with a cryptozoologist to find a North American Apatosaurus.
there's a photo that's suposedly a photo of a living breathing dinosaur!!! this is supposedly "proof" that the "fossil record is innacurate" and that the very Earth itself (according to "creationism") is really only 10 thousand years old!!!
supposedly the "behemoths" and "leviathans" in the book of "Job" were actually dinosaurs
and they think they photographed one of them

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Old September 14th, 2009, 07:55 PM   #13 (permalink)
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I know exactly what you mean, because I am the same way. It seems obvious to us that certain information is restricted because knowledge is power and that power threatens not just their faith, but their entire way of life. Consequently, restricting information is the only reliable method of perpetuating their agenda without risk of losing their future generations to what they honestly perceive to be the greatest evil that exists.

By contrast, we're free to look up as much of their propaganda as we so choose because to an objective, well informed reader, their "information" isn't threatening at all; it's hilarious! In fact, that's why it's so difficult to tell whether this site is truly operated by fundamentalists, or if it's a satire published by atheists as a parody of far-right-wing Christians.

Of course, this is still overlooking the fact that most people don't have the initiative to fact check their opinions through a peer-reviewed, impartial publisher, especially at risk of learning that their entire way of life is based on a fallacy. Most people are not cognitively prepared to accept that their entire community has been lying to them for their entire lives and will aggressively oppose any notion of such a phenomenon, regardless of overwhelming evidence. However, it would be unlikely for any one of them to attempt such a thing anyway, because their culture reinforces their ignorance by celebrating it and they are constanting and consistently stroking each others' egos over it.

As I said before though, most of these people already believe that they are well informed and thus have no ambition to persue additional research. This is why when you challenge the point of one of those campus-crashing fundies, they promtly interupt you with something like "don't you talk to me about FACTS! I HAVE the FACTS!" (when arguing in text form, they will invariably capitalize the word "facts"). Interrupting you and claiming to have "real" facts is partly an attempt to undermine your point so that they will appear to be in control of the situation, giving bystanders the impression that they (the fundies, not the bystanders) are the sole authoritative force in the discussion, but it is also a desperation attempt to prevent, or at least to limit, exposure to any piece of information that may challenge their faith. This of course helps to reafirm their own faith to themselves and to their peers, but also implements a strong directional bias with regard to the information's proportional representation. This way, if "FACTS" alone aren't convincing enough, perhaps their sheer volume will compensate for any lack of sense.

As I mentioned above, I can't tell if this site is serious or satire (though I'm pretty sure it's satire), but if you scroll down to Professor Giraffenstein & Pepper's box, the very first question refers to dinosaurs being on the ark and links to an article about an African trek with a cryptozoologist to find a North American Apatosaurus.
and once again BMWG has made a post that i completely agree with

creationists seem to be insane

the earth only ten thousand years old? WTF?
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Old September 15th, 2009, 02:08 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Well yea.. world is and will always be full of theories. You can never be sure what's right and what's wrong. I just tend to keep my own believes and thoughts about these things to myself, because the ongoing debate will never end. I like to question everything, even myself when I think I am right at some point. That somehow keeps me on track and the truth is, you never know anything, every theory is assumed and can be proven wrong in the next year, decade, century etc.
But to be truthful, evolution sounds much more realistic, since there have been and still is evidence that are more believable than creationism.
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Old September 16th, 2009, 05:00 AM   #15 (permalink)
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there's a photo that's suposedly a photo of a living breathing dinosaur!!! this is supposedly "proof" that the "fossil record is innacurate" and that the very Earth itself (according to "creationism") is really only 10 thousand years old!!!
would you say Christians to be more specific rather than generalize all creationists please? thanks
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Old September 16th, 2009, 11:57 AM   #16 (permalink)
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This all truly come back down to what i've always said, it's impossible to rationally make a rational truth out of an irrational thing
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Old September 16th, 2009, 05:04 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Would you elaborate? I don't think I get it, are you commenting the above post of mine?
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Old September 17th, 2009, 01:33 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Not really i'm more commenting on the whole essence of what is most religions. They are irrational, hence trying to make rational, logical conclusions about them, will be, in a nut shell just a horrible task to stomach.
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Old September 17th, 2009, 04:00 PM   #19 (permalink)
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You are talking as if you know all religions, red all the books and scriptures that define them and know the basic pillars of all religions.
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Old September 17th, 2009, 09:37 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Hello, the other day this happened to me: I was on the phone with a lady freind of mine we were having a rather interesting talk about history and arts. Before i go on let me fill you in, I'm an atheist, she attends a private christian school. Now i can go on, I mention dinosaurs. She pauses and says these words to me......"You know thats a hoax right?". After a couple minutes of conversation on it i realized that was actually her opinion. THE CHRISTIAN SCHOOL TAUGHT HER THAT DINOSAURS WERE A HOAX!!!!!!!!! It just made me think once again about the taunting teachings of religion....stories like this anyone?
Wow, how ridiculous. I'm a Christian and I have absolutely no problem believing evolution - it's pretty evident, in my opinion. It's amazing what kinds of misinformation people just soak up and truly believe.

If I believed everything I heard, I would actually like Metallica.
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Old September 18th, 2009, 05:13 AM   #21 (permalink)
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I'm a Christian and I have absolutely no problem believing evolution - it's pretty evident, in my opinion.
Doesn't evolution deny one of basic beliefs in Christianity? How do you believe in both?
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Old September 18th, 2009, 07:08 AM   #22 (permalink)
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You are talking as if you know all religions, red all the books and scriptures that define them and know the basic pillars of all religions.
I have read MOST of them. The more obscure, unkown religions i haven't read up on. But the ones you hear the most about i'm pretty sure i've obtainted a good amount of knowledge about them, enough to state my theory. Religious Study is a hobby of mine.

Oh and i agree with hex...that goes against your faith.
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Old September 18th, 2009, 11:27 AM   #23 (permalink)
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I have read MOST of them. The more obscure, unkown religions i haven't read up on. But the ones you hear the most about i'm pretty sure i've obtainted a good amount of knowledge about them, enough to state my theory. Religious Study is a hobby of mine.
What's the irrationality that you found? and please let me know in which religion you noticed that
Don't get me wrong with all these question i just want to know what a person whose hobby is theology thinks about each religion they know about
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Old September 18th, 2009, 01:51 PM   #24 (permalink)
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well...i can honestly say that the more obscure religions get, the more sense they make. Which i now is odd...let me try to explain. The largest religion....Christianity...is very non-sensical and fairy tale like. But the most obscure religion that i've studied is called "Drophenism" it's a religion practiced by southern african tribes. Like christianity the tribes worship the ideal differently. But they ideal is this...If you treat the land well-the land will treat you well. and thats the base factor. Sounds like alot of other nature loving faiths, but, it's not cuz THATS IT thats all they do is cater to the land. Which is a logical thing to spend time doing...way more logical than praying to an invisible man. To list my exact thoughts about ALL the religions i know of would be too long but id be glad to tell you on an individual basis if u have a request.
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Old September 18th, 2009, 04:32 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Okay dude, PM then
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