That "Clayman" sound....

[Glenn Fricker]

I used a Maxon OD808.
I also remembered something Andy mentioned in the Noise 101 Wiki about getting the guitarists to "pick closer to the bridge." So, I tried that and it certainly made a difference.
But I still can't get over just how little EQ was needed.... that & I finally got an ENGL cab. They're next to impossible to find in Canada... I had to go over to Michigan to get this one & I got damn lucky. It was used in a "near mint" condition.

[Gonzo666]

sound awesome...we need more IR of the Engl cab and the fredman SM57s...

[MetalJonesy]

Sounds good Glenn!! need to re experiment with the fredman micing technique, ive done it various times before and failed miserably!!

i still struggle at wether to put the on axis mic dead centre or use my norla off centre technique, which have you used here?

[Sickan]

Sounds really sweet Oz!

[poidaobi]

Originally Posted by OzNimbus

Well, finally got my ENGL cab, & here's my take on the Fredman technique....

CLIP HERE


Bear in mind I spent absolutely no time at all on the drums, they're merely a placeholder "slate kontakt preset."


What I really like is there is nearly zero eq on this tone. Just a hi & lopass, and a little mulitband in the mud zone.... other than that, it's all amp.

Increased Happyness.

[ParsonsMatt]

ENGL cab GAS rising..

[Nebulous]

Hey Oz. Any chance you have a set of Stadard E tuned DI's lying around that you could run through the fiddy and Engl Fredman style for us?

[Fragle]

hey guys,

i'm trying to get into the fredman technique, but i still have one question...

basically, what's the proper way to start this setup? would you go and position the on axis 57 as you would with single micing, i.e. would you try and get the best sound from that mic alone.....then add the second mic, do the phase white noise thing, and when it's in phase just set levels between the two (blending the off axis in to get rid of some fuzz) and hit record?
OR do you just place the on axis mic pretty much straight on the dustcap, capturing all the fizz - which will be cancelled out through that second off axis mic anyways??

the thing is, when i try to set it up the first way, meaning i'll go and get the best sound from the first mic alone, it'll usually not be *that* bright/fizzy anyways, so when the second mic comes in it'll quickly start to get too dull.


btw, how do you guys *usually* set the levels between the two mics? is the off axis mic just a tad lower than the on axis one, or is it barely blended in? just as a guideline

thanks!

[Nitronium Blood]

Just to remind people of the awesomeness of Glenn.

[guitarguru777]

Ok just spent 3 and a half hours reading the entire thread.

i think I am going to give this a shot this weekend (not the clayman sound, but just the mic technique) and see how this workson some low end tube amps (i.e. Valveking, Kustom) and some Solid State jobbies and see if it helps them up any, if at all.

Im just doing it so that people on a budget can see their options.

[phatnoise]

I've been reading the whole thread... and I must say DAMN!!! got some good stuff in here!!
I can't wait to try it my self!!!

Cheers from Israel!

[saxamafone]

Originally Posted by Glenn Fricker

Well, finally got my ENGL cab, & here's my take on the Fredman technique....

CLIP HERE




Bear in mind I spent absolutely no time at all on the drums, they're merely a placeholder "slate kontakt preset."


What I really like is there is nearly zero eq on this tone. Just a hi & lopass, and a little mulitband in the mud zone.... other than that, it's all amp.

holy crap that sounded awesome

how do you set your 808?

[Glenn Fricker]

Full volume, 0 OD

[Nebulous]

Originally Posted by Nebulous

Hey Oz. Any chance you have a set of Stadard E tuned DI's lying around that you could run through the fiddy and Engl Fredman style for us?

[SuperD]

Originally Posted by Glenn Fricker

Full volume, 0 OD

That sounded great Glenn

[jinxtigr]

Just noticed in some reading that EVH apparently also used this mic technique on guitars- now I'm all the more hot to try it. Just need to get another 57 and a mic-mount which will hold both mics

When I do get to do it, first thing I'm gonna do is write a Logic utility plugin for combining the mics in a convenient way...

[jinxtigr]

http://www.jinxtigr.com/f/GolemDemo.dmg

I promised a plug, and this is gonna be it- you guys are seeing it before anybody else. Any Logic users interested in letting me know if this would make your workflow easier with Clayman miking?

Bear in mind that this does ALMOST nothing you can't do with two channels panned to the same place- it's only gonna be like $30 and it's only a utility plugin. It's the demo you're trying out- which means it mutes periodically, nothing more (and you're not supposed to do real work with the demos)

I had some theories on what would make a really useful plug for this, and I think they're working out. It expects that you've recorded your Clayman mics to one stereo track or can make a stereo track out of 'em.

First there's a simple balance control that fades between the two sides (the output of the plugin is dual-mono so you can just use the panpot to place the result or leave it in the middle)

Then, offset. Now this is supposed to be a nightmare but I think that is just implementation, plus you HAVE to have subsample delay to get useful results. I made an offset slider which is heavily heavily biased towards almost no delay at all- way over to the sides you start getting real phasey, but most of the travel of the thing is within usable ranges, and since it's subsample delay you can get more subtle effects. When you move the slider to a side, the opposite mic gets delayed, so if your bright mic is on one side then moving the offset in that direction will ALSO lean things in that direction- in other words the offset acts the same way the balance control does.

Lastly, there's a phase switch, and here's why: flipping phase on one of the mics gives you lots of cancellation, but it can help you tune in the offset. If the phase is flipped, you're looking for settings that sound BAD, and stuff that you DON'T want. You could go looking for rattiness, or cabinet honk, or whatever- probably not way into the phasey zone but just within that center area. You find something bad in the sound and tune it in, then flip the phase back to 'reinforcement' (in phase) and it should be pretty killer.

If you are tuning the offset in phase it's tempting to seek out cool overtones, but tuning it in cancellation is interesting because the end result seems like it has better personality... and again, probably good to not get too phasey with the settings, the center area is always really close to no offset at all.

Thoughts? I can probably get the real version out mid or late next week if this is a go.

[Ermz]

Nice tone, Oz.

If you don't mind me asking, where do you normally find your 'on-axis' mic ends up in relation to the speaker? Whenever I've tried absolutely direct on with the cone, toucing the grille it's sounded really sizzly and harsh. Haven't had much of a chance to experiment with the V mic'ing since, as I tend to default on one mic per top speaker on the cab, and try to get the best qualities out of both to balance each other out.

[JoshuaLogan]

Did anyone ever actually confirm that this was the Engl Pro V30 cab and not the Engl Standard cab with the different speakers? just wondering, because I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that Fredman prefers the Engl Standard cab over the Engl Pro V30 cab...

[jinxtigr]

I did end up doing that plugin- called it 'Golem' inspired by this thread


http://www.airwindows.com/golem.html

But I also updated one of the freebies so if you work at it you can have the same functionality as Golem- it's meant as a convenience, not to hold hostage useful stuff. I added a subsample delay slider to my Sample Delay which is free-

http://www.jinxtigr.com/f/SampleDelay.dmg

It's not the same as it would be less convenient to work with, and it throws a LOT of latency because it does negative delay as well as positive. But it will do the same subsample delay thing that's built into Golem

[Glenn Fricker]

Originally Posted by JoshuaLogan

Did anyone ever actually confirm that this was the Engl Pro V30 cab and not the Engl Standard cab with the different speakers? just wondering, because I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that Fredman prefers the Engl Standard cab over the Engl Pro V30 cab...

Could you be specific? Show us a link, perhaps? He might have been meaning the "standard sized" cab as opposed to the "XXL" cab too.


FWIW, I just did a record with Fredrik & Henrik. I recorded here in Canada & they mixed. They used my guitar tracks which were an ENGL PRO V30 cab, & believe me, they've got that "Fredman Grind" on them.

[Glenn Fricker]

Originally Posted by Ermz

Nice tone, Oz.

If you don't mind me asking, where do you normally find your 'on-axis' mic ends up in relation to the speaker? Whenever I've tried absolutely direct on with the cone, toucing the grille it's sounded really sizzly and harsh. Haven't had much of a chance to experiment with the V mic'ing since, as I tend to default on one mic per top speaker on the cab, and try to get the best qualities out of both to balance each other out.

The on axis mic is pretty close to dead center. Sure it's harsh. That's where the off axis mic comes in. Use it to fill in the nasties

[JoshuaLogan]

Originally Posted by Glenn Fricker

Could you be specific? Show us a link, perhaps? He might have been meaning the "standard sized" cab as opposed to the "XXL" cab too.


FWIW, I just did a record with Fredrik & Henrik. I recorded here in Canada & they mixed. They used my guitar tracks which were an ENGL PRO V30 cab, & believe me, they've got that "Fredman Grind" on them.

Unfortunately, I can't, because I'm not sure where I read it. I think I read that on this very forum actually, but I can't find it now. I'm just pretty sure he said that he preferred the standard cab because it was tighter... BUT you could very well be right in that he could have meant the regular sized Engl Pro V30 as compared to the oversized XXL version. For some reason I was thinking that the Engl Pro V30 cab and the XXL cab were the same and that the "standard" cab (the cheaper 4x12 they sell with different speakers) was the only other. I just looked it up though and see that those are actually 3 different cabs... Is your Engl Pro V30 the same cab Fredrik uses in his studio? Do you have any clips of the tracks you did for the cd they mixed? or maybe clips of the final tracks from them? I'd love to hear them! I really like the dual sm57 sound and I went and bought two of them to try it out. I have an Engl SE on the way too, which I'm fucking psyched to try out. I might have to sell my cab and get the Engl Pro!

[Djabthrash]

Originally Posted by JoshuaLogan

I have an Engl SE on the way too, which I'm fucking psyched to try out. I might have to sell my cab and get the Engl Pro!

Congrats on that ! Can't wait to hear your samples ! (i have an SE + V30 ENGL pro cab myself)

[JoshuaLogan]

Originally Posted by Djabthrash

Congrats on that ! Can't wait to hear your samples ! (i have an SE + V30 ENGL pro cab myself)

Awesome. Do you have any clips of your setup? I've never tried out the engl cabs. I've heard they're quite a bit tighter than mesa cabs. I have a Bogner v30 cab right now, and it sounds good but not super tight... not loose either... somewhere inbetween. The tightest V30 cab I've tried out was the Orange 4x12.