The downside of the Green Movement

[nailz]

Originally Posted by Kenneth R.

And other vegetable oil based fuel options. Wahoo, lower gas costs! Wahoo, higher food prices.

Except... gas is still more expensive now than ever, and still rising.

[nailz]

I also will be thrilled to death when I can do away with incandescent bulbs for LED bulbs. I love LED, and I think with a little fine tuning, it'll be one hell of a light source. I may look into those LED bulbs. I wouldn't mind replacing my current florecent tubes in my kitchen, but that requires new light fixtures and celing work since the jackasses who built the condos recessioned it into the ceiling about 2 feet. guh.

[Kenneth R.]

I'm proud to say there are not, and never will be, any flourescent bulbs in my house.

About gas prices... did you notice that although we're transitioning some sectors to veggie oil fuel, that market is still miniscule? So yeah, it's causing a rise in food prices. But we aren't even really committed, so gas continues to rise as demand is not alleviated by alternative options being explored more seriously. Supposing we DID put weight behind the veggie oil plan, you'll see food prices skyrocket.

The short version:
Petroleum: not a solution.
Ethanol: not a solution, but a quick fix.

[Kaosaur]

Originally Posted by Kenneth R.

Supposing we DID put weight behind the veggie oil plan, you'll see food prices skyrocket.

We have and they did.

Is this still 2006 or something?

Anyway, here's the funny thing about gas prices: They're not following a supply and demand economic model.
Sure, demand is going up...but about the same amount it always goes up: an expected and planned for yearly average of about 2.6% (I think it was 3.2% this year actually though).

So...why have we seen a 500% per barrel increase in oil prices over the last 6 years? Ask the oil investors who have increased (monetarily) their speculation in the market by more than a factor of 10 in this same period of time. The US government has more oil reserves stocked now than at any other point since the mid-1970s.

[Kenneth R.]

Originally Posted by Kaosaur

It's a terrible thing no matter where you live. It's waste and inefficiency and power conservation is much more important than we think...on a scale that's greater than any individual's cost issues.

That's your misguided opinion. I'm sorry you feel that way.

Oh, and I'll recommend you look at the price trends for crude oil adjusted for inflation. Supply and demand or not, it's not a solution. But you knew that right? Neither is ethanol. "We have and we did"? So your car runs on ethanol and everyone in your neighborhood's too? And all your public transport? (Those seem to be the ONLY ones actually switching.)

Originally Posted by sh0kr0k

Okay so what should the rest of us non-electrical engineers purchase when we just want to save money, be efficient, and do our part for the environment? Yesterday my bedroom lightbulb went out so I will have to replace it today. Ya'll have convinced me that the almighty praised CFL isn't a good option, and that incandescents are lousy in everything except the light they give off (funny, never thought that would be my last concern when choosing a lightbulb, for pete's sake), and I guess the LEDs aren't on the market yet.... so, what do I get today when I go the store?

You do realize you'll be shelling out extra cash for LEDs, and you won't get good lighting. Unless it doesn't matter to you that instead of a wide spectrum of colors, you'll only get certain frequencies (imagine a bulb that is more "blue" or "orange" than white).

If you want to be ecofriendly, the incandescent is the best option for recycleability. Worst for power usage, but then, this is the trade off: do you want to foot the cost for LEDs, and hope your electric bill goes down? Or do you want the electric company to pay for 'waste' energy (that can help heat your house to a small degree) and keep things as usual.

I'll warrant that most people who switch to supposedly ecofriendly alternatives like CFL or LED leave their lights on more often, since they probably think it wastes less energy. In the long run it really makes zero difference.

[Kaosaur]

Originally Posted by Kenneth R.

That's your misguided opinion. I'm sorry you feel that way.

You say that my belief that waste and inefficiency is a terrible thing is a misguided opinion?

Shut up and buy a clue. Seriously.
Let me frame the idea for you differently: I'm your local water utility company. For every gallon you pump into you're home, only 4oz are going to be usable water and the rest is going to have to be redirected to sewage. Oh...and I'm going to bill you for the whole gallon.


And you look at the price trends of all food products from processed wheat and corn crops. The small investment that has been made into ethanol has led to a significant price increase in food prices. Not a solution even worth considering. Seriously, next question.

[Kaosaur]

The newer LED bulbs last 6 years plus. As the price comes down (it will) and they become MORE durable (they will), expect to see the savings of switching to LED over incandescent to become much more dramatic...

...Although if you look at the projections of some companies, each bulb you buy TODAY saves you $750.

[Kenneth R.]

Man, you sure are pissed off. Instead of trying to club me over the head while you froth at the mouth with hate, calm down and discuss. This is exactly the problem with the whole environmental debate. People jump straight to the conclusion and the result is bad legislation.

You say ethanol is a moot point. I've already said that at least 3 times. We agree.

What makes you certain that the price of LED bulbs will come down? Do you have any physical or financial basis for that conjecture? And as I've already mentioned several times now, savings are not the entire point. While I may save money in electrical bills and save useable energy by switching to LED, I'll pay more at the store for each bulb, and I won't get the quality of lighting that I would with incandescent. Many times now I've mentioned novel ideas like color temperature, emission spectrum, and Diamond45 and I both emphasized the importance of unwanted flickering. These are not cursory issues and they must all be addressed before I would switch to LED. Because of how LED works (and unless it goes through a major restructure - essentially a completely different technology that isn't diode based, and that won't happen) the flicker problem will never be solved.

[Kaosaur]

Dude, I'm just reacting to the way you're speaking to me. (misguided opinion? If you're going to talk to me like I'm some child or airhead, I'm going to do the same to you)

As far as jumping to conclusion on the environmental debate, I'm the LAST person you're going to see supporting Greenpeace. I try very hard to found all of my arguments on a strong, scientific basis.

Why am I so certain that the price of LED bulbs will come down? The same reason that CD & DVD players don't cost $2000 today. If you're going to talk about economics, act like you know something about it instead of letting me do all the talking so that you can pounce on what I say when it's convenient (ahhh debate tactics...). As far as the "flicker" issue, you're commenting on an issue that can easily be resolved through engineering, if it hasn't been done already...a hint on that would be AC->DC conversion and capacitors in the circuitry of the bulb.

Lastly, there are plenty of industries where we have regulated out a product for an inferior one in the name of efficiency and safety. I don't see why incandescent bulbs should be any different.


Here's 3 points, not written by me:

1. When incandescent lights are powered by AC, the power through them isn't constant. Each half-cycle there is a surge that heats the filament slightly above its equilibrium point, followed by a power sag when the filament cools down again. The output of the incandescent therefore varies slightly over a half-cycle, but it takes sensitive equipment to detect this variation.

This flicker does not happen if the light is powered by constant DC voltage.

2. If the light emitting diode (LED) is powered by rectified AC current without any filtering, yes it will flicker and even go completely out when the current goes to zero. Filtering to change this rectified AC into DC will reduce this flicker to an arbitrarily low level.

3. Being basically a gas discharge tube, a compact fluorescent light (CFL) flickers because it needs a fair amount of voltage each half-cycle to start the discharge and will go out when the voltage drops below a critical voltage. However, the CFL tube is coated with a fluorescent substance that will continue to emit light for a short time after the excitation stops. The flicker is therefore not as bad as it might be.

The CFL's flicker can also be made less noticeable by running at a higher voltage and frequency so that the CFL gas will emit over a greater percentage of the cycle and there will be a shorter duration for the dark periods.

[Kenneth R.]

I really think you should look up LED on wikipedia or something. The flicker problem I'm referring to has little to do with the visual effect, and much more to do with the electromagnetic effect.

Secondly, "safety"? I sure hope you aren't suggesting that CFLs for example, according to this regulation, are more safe.

I'd rather you not get confrontational.