Future Thoughts / Suggestions

[Jasonic]

Originally Posted by skyrefuge

I feel like fans of old-man metal are pretty suburban-based anyway, so the difference between city/suburbs attendance for Virgin Steele is much smaller than it would be for, say, Pelican.

Also recall that 14 bands played at this thing, which if you add up all their numbers, probably ends up being like half the people who were in attendance.

I agree with these two points.
I am not sure if the handful of Red Line Tap / Wicker Park hipster / Cobra Lounge crowd would offset those in the burbs who wouldn't go to the city. As I said, no one is making any bad or incorrect points. My only problem is with the statement that being in the city would 100% guarantee a better turnout.

This show certainly had a bigger crowd than any Alehorn, for example.
I guess that's really the only other Chicago festival to closely compare it to for now.

I too was thinking the same thing about bands. I mean the rail for the most part on Saturday was made up of the Borrowed Time guys, Stone Magnum guys, and the Voltax guys. Still wish they didnt have the booze upstairs so the floor would be more crowded.

[Jasonic]

Originally Posted by Diabolik

didnt you not come friday because you didnt want to drive to joliet late and twice in one weekend?

Yes,
Though those reasons would be the same City or Joliet.
As I said above, and as Neil said, I am not sure if the additional city folk would outweigh the suburbanites who wouldn't go to the city.

It certainly would be worth trying a smaller scale one night event next time in the city to see though.

[Wizard_Junkie]

I still feel the city would attract more people, Joliet and the surrounding towns are mostly into the deathcore and metalcore scene whereas anywhere in Chicago would have an actual base to build around. All the shows I've been to at Mojoes have had really terrible draws where I know Reggies would attract more because I've seen the same bands play at a Reggies or Bottom Lounge with a doubled turnout.

[nomisofsiman]

I think part of it too is exactly where this show was. A lot of people I know are afraid to go to Joliet. A number of friends, family and co-workers asked about the show and where I was going and they were like, be careful in Joliet. It's not the best area so that might be part of it too. I don't know for sure, though it doesn't bother me.

[Diabolik]

Originally Posted by skyrefuge

So your advice is to remove the headliners from the bill, and that will result in a doubling of the turnout?


Also recall that 14 bands played at this thing, which if you add up all their numbers, probably ends up being like half the people who were in attendance.

Neil

If you noticed....both nights when the headliners came on...most people left. Most of the people I know where there for Brocas Helm, Skull Fist, Pharaoh and Voltax. Voltax had the largest crowd on the main floor watching them. Right there shows that people are interested and willing to come out for bands like this than say a Virgin Steele again. You can run all the numbers and percentages you want....this is fact....we all saw it right there.

With doing this as well you save lots of money by not paying some band who thinks they are worth more than they are really worth.

[Justin Gaines]

Originally Posted by nomisofsiman

I think part of it too is exactly where this show was. A lot of people I know are afraid to go to Joliet. A number of friends, family and co-workers asked about the show and where I was going and they were like, be careful in Joliet. It's not the best area so that might be part of it too. I don't know for sure, though it doesn't bother me.

Is Joliet really that bad of an area? It seemed nice enough and safe enough to me.

[Justin Gaines]

Originally Posted by Diabolik

If you noticed....both nights when the headliners came on...most people left. Most of the people I know where there for Brocas Helm, Skull Fist, Pharaoh and Voltax. Voltax had the largest crowd on the main floor watching them. Right there shows that people are interested and willing to come out for bands like this than say a Virgin Steele again. You can run all the numbers and percentages you want....this is fact....we all saw it right there.

With doing this as well you save lots of money by not paying some band who thinks they are worth more than they are really worth.

Yes, but on last.fm...

[nomisofsiman]

Originally Posted by Justin Gaines

Is Joliet really that bad of an area? It seemed nice enough and safe enough to me.

Parts of it can be from what I hear. I don't think that's the case really with the downtown area where the venue is.

[nomisofsiman]

Originally Posted by Diabolik

If you noticed....both nights when the headliners came on...most people left. Most of the people I know where there for Brocas Helm, Skull Fist, Pharaoh and Voltax. Voltax had the largest crowd on the main floor watching them. Right there shows that people are interested and willing to come out for bands like this than say a Virgin Steele again. You can run all the numbers and percentages you want....this is fact....we all saw it right there.

With doing this as well you save lots of money by not paying some band who thinks they are worth more than they are really worth.

Bob- you've even mentioned before how in Chicago/illinois people leave once it gets later. I know you liked those bands the most, but just because the most people were there for those bands, didn't necessarily mean those were the bands people were there for in particular. Let's face it. Turn out just wasn't that good and I think if some of those bands ended up playing the headlining set, they too would've seen the crowd thin out.

[Diabolik]

Originally Posted by Justin Gaines

Yes, but on last.fm...

hahahahahahahaha. now you are part of the Chicago posse.

[Diabolik]

Originally Posted by nomisofsiman

Bob- you've even mentioned before how in Chicago/illinois people leave once it gets later. I know you liked those bands the most, but just because the most people were there for those bands, didn't necessarily mean those were the bands people were there for in particular. Let's face it. Turn out just wasn't that good and I think if some of those bands ended up playing the headlining set, they too would've seen the crowd thin out.

actaully most people I talked to were even telling me that they are not staying for Wizard and Virgin Steele. They didnt like them. Not that they are bad bands but they are power metal. If they played earlier in the day most would have been upstairs and outside for them.

[Justin Gaines]

Originally Posted by Diabolik

actaully most people I talked to were even telling me that they are not staying for Wizard and Virgin Steele. They didnt like them. Not that they are bad bands but they are power metal. If they played earlier in the day most would have been upstairs and outside for them.

I had every intention for staying through VS's set, but Dave did so many of those "Eeeeeeeeee" things I just couldn't take more than a couple songs.

Sheer exhaustion had me cutting out during Wizard's set.

[Jasonic]

Originally Posted by Justin Gaines

Yes, but on last.fm...

WIN!!!!!!!!

[skyrefuge]

Originally Posted by Justin Gaines

Yes, but on last.fm...

...Voltax has 970 listeners. 970! By way of comparison, Pharaoh has 9107, and Virgin Steele has 47,501. Heck, even Skull Fist at least has 2875.

Ok, maybe Voltax is horribly underrepresented at last.fm, because most tr00 metal warrior Voltax fans listen exclusively on vinyl and never on their poseur computers (despite the fact that Skull Fist's poseur fans have no problem with computers). It still seems like a Voltax album could garner at least ONE review at metal-archives.com. But have they? Nope.

Originally Posted by Diabolik

If you noticed....both nights when the headliners came on...most people left.

So I still maintain that no one gave a fuck about Voltax. I completely agree that they had the largest crowd on the floor during their set, and since they acquitted themselves well in front of that crowd, that would probably help their draw in the future. But the size of that crowd was coincidence, not causation.

Simon believes that people leave shows as the hours get later. I believe the same thing. You used to say the same thing, though you seem to have forgotten that now. Justin EXPLICITLY SAID that that was his reason for leaving during the headliners.

On the other end, people also arrive *early* to make sure they don't miss the bands they want to see. I only cared about Pharaoh and Virgin Steele, but since I was going all the way to Joliet, I figured I would catch another band or two and make sure I didn't miss the ones I really wanted to see. So I was also there for half of A Sound of Thunder's set, and then Voltax. I talked to two guys who came from two different states, basically to see Pharaoh. They also arrived in time to see Voltax. That's three people who saw Voltax completely unintentionally, and I'm sure we weren't the only ones.

Heck, that's the whole theory behind being an "opening band", that you play for people who wouldn't otherwise make any effort to see you! But when opening bands see a big crowd there watching them, most aren't dumb enough to believe that they're the reason those people came to the concert.

[Diabolik]

Actually all the hispanic guys and gals there were there to see Voltax. I talked to lots of different people the past month about the show and Voltax was talked about a lot. Bands like that are off the radar of places like last.fm.

I could have told you days before that people were going to leave before Virgin Steele and Wizard.....everyone communicated with at various shows said they were not staying for them. Sorry...there is an underground and bands like them are not fan faves or respected. These are two totally different fanbases here....just like at ProgPower...you have your power metal guys and prog types. Same thing here. There is no computer nerd data to back me up....just go to shows and talk to people.

[Jasonic]

You two are seriously pissing me off right now.

BOTH of you (IE - Bob and Neil) have also stated MANY times that a fest is about the package as a whole and not one or two individual bands. Sure, I do agree that Virgin Steele and Wizard may not be the truest of the true, but they aren't exactly Edguy or Sonata Arctica. Personally, I thought Wizard kicked serious arse! I wasn't there for Virgin Steele. I don't necessarily think it is a bad thing ,as both those bands, albeit not as "true" metal as others, fit well and helped bring in different people. I don't think you can worry about "what band at what spot on the lineup drew the most people" That's not what its about. Its about trying to attract attention for the fest to as many different fans without straying TOO far off course.

[J. Golden]

The town did not strike me as being that bad at all; I have seen a lot worse. Plus the club layout can't be beaten.

[nomisofsiman]

Originally Posted by J. Golden

The town did not strike me as being that bad at all; I have seen a lot worse. Plus the club layout can't be beaten.

I really love the layout of the place I'll admit. I just think they need to wise up on the alcohol thing on the lower floor. If what I heard is true, it was due to problems on NYE but for crying out loud, that's NYE of course there would be problems. That and having a better audio guy of course would be grand, though I don't know if that was their's or someone just for the fest.

[SteelFireRecs]

Stop complaining about Wizard not fitting the festival. I think they fit just find. Yes they are a power metal band but they arent what everyone calls a power metal band. They arent this crazy over-synthesized madness that is beyond over the top. In fact they dont even have a synth! It is just 5 guys playing 5 instruments (yes voice is an instrument) and what they make is pure unadultered heavy metal. Isnt that what true metal is all about? That what i believe true metal to be. So stop bitching about Wizard not fitting the bill. And if it wasnt for Odin and Thor, none of us would ever see this band. And they kicked major asss, definitely get the award for best showmanship from me. Ive never seen a band get a crowd so involved in every song since Iron Maiden and Bruce Dickinson.

[Diabolik]

Oh, I think all the bands fit the bill. Just the ones headlining were not the ones bringing in the people. Neil seems to think because they are headlining they will be the ones drawing in the crowds. As Jason said...it is the full line up that brings in most. Mark my words...if Virgin Steele switched with Voltax the same people would have been there watching Voltax and the same people who left for Virgin Steele would have been drinking or outside. Honestly...this was pretty much a solid line up from start to finish.

[skyrefuge]

Originally Posted by Diabolik

Actually all the hispanic guys and gals there were there to see Voltax.

Yeah, I can believe that, except the numbers of the Mexican Posse were so small it was barely noticeable. I actually expected it to be much more of a force, but it seemed to me like half the (obvious) Hispanics there were members of Voltax! Are you sure it wasn't just the dudes from Voltax you were talking to telling you they were there to see Voltax?

Originally Posted by Diabolik

I could have told you days before that people were going to leave before Virgin Steele and Wizard...

Me too, because that's what happens at every show, especially festivals. Some people leave when it gets late. I was at a show last night (Dark Dark Dark at the Hideout, total glasses-core, you would have loved it!), and the place was completely packed for the direct support, but then half-empty by the end of Dark Dark Dark's set. You would say it's because everyone was actually there to see the direct support, but everyone else in the world would say it was because it was 1am on a Tuesday night.

Originally Posted by Diabolik

Neil seems to think because they are headlining they will be the ones drawing in the crowds.

Not exactly, you have cause and effect reversed; I think the bands with the biggest fanbases draw the biggest crowds, and any concert promoter who isn't a moron selects the bands with the biggest fanbases to be his headliners. Even if someone isn't a particular fan of the headliners and are more fans of the "whole package", they're less likely to consider going to the show at all if it's just some bands that they've barely heard of even if it's a genre they like. Heck, I bet a bunch of the lower-tier BANDS would be less interested in coming without the headliners, because they know no one would show up to watch them if not for the bigger bands on the bill.

So you talked to some people who were there to see Voltax. I already told you about three people who weren't there to see Voltax. For some reason the people you talked to form a complete and unbiased sample space from which you can draw rock-solid conclusions, while the people I talked to don't count. Maybe you think I'm lying. Where can we find more data? Let's check, I dunno, The Ragnarokkr UM forum. Here are the bands mentioned in your what is everyone looking forward to this year thread:

Pharaoh: 3
Brocas Helm: 3
Wizard: 2
Virgin Steele: 2
Slauter Xstroyes: 2
Damien Thorne: 2
Blacksmith: 1
Stone Magnum: 1
Borrowed Time: 1

And,

Voltax: wait for it......


wait for it.....


ZERO!

Yet somehow if they would have gotten rid of the headliners, leaving Voltax and a similar band to top the bill, and had it in a smaller place, they would have drawn twice as many people as they did. Okaaay....

[Jasonic]

I am going to cut to the chase here and get to the heart of the matter.
I believe what Bob is trying to convey is that the headliners were probably not worth their cost.
While that would be true if this was just a one of random show,as I said, it's about the whole package.

I too agree that if the direct support and headliner flip flopped on any day of the Fest the same damn thing would have happened. It is a fact city or suburbs that once the midnight hour approaches people head for their cars. It happened last year and we predicted it to happen this year and it did.

[skyrefuge]

Originally Posted by Jasonic

the headliners were probably not worth their cost.

Agreed! Or, more generally, "the bands in total weren't worth their cost" since it sounds like the promoters didn't break even, though we don't know what was spent on the headliners. From the FB page, it sounds like maybe *only* the headliners (I dunno, top 4) were paid?

Also from that FB comment thread, if there *is* another one of these, I think I can tell you 4 potential bands who definitely will NOT be appearing next year!

[Justin Gaines]

Anyone else think the ticket prices were too low for the size of the event?

[Diabolik]

Originally Posted by skyrefuge

Also from that FB comment thread, if there *is* another one of these, I think I can tell you 4 potential bands who definitely will NOT be appearing next year!

dont really get what is so funny but one of those bands said they would play again if asked.