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Old January 8th, 2010, 02:56 AM   #51 (permalink)
masqueraded
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Originally Posted by Mr. Shred-ididle View Post
I like jazz more than metal now, and I can safely say that it's alot harder than metal theoretically and jjust generally, even if metal might have more fast playing. But I'd rather hear something innovative, original and beautiful over a complex chord sequence than someone picking/sweeping/tapping as fast as they can over a heavy E power chord.
I like these words.

My favorite sweep picker is Michael James Romeo. Becker is in my list as well.
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Old January 8th, 2010, 01:48 PM   #52 (permalink)
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Wow. This is old. Wow.
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Old January 8th, 2010, 04:09 PM   #53 (permalink)
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Wow. Sweep pickers. Wow.
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Old January 8th, 2010, 07:29 PM   #54 (permalink)
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i can pick all your noses before you knew what happened.
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Old January 8th, 2010, 08:05 PM   #55 (permalink)
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I think once someone has the technique down, they all sound the same...it's a rather sterile technique. Gambale is the only one who really has a unique take on it. I could never hear another sweep arpeggio and be just fine.
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Old January 8th, 2010, 08:13 PM   #56 (permalink)
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Vinnie Moore - Simply brilliant and accurate with sweeps, everything's so claen and precise, and he can combine his sweeps perfectly with legato and tapping stuff to create mind boggling sounds. Those sweeps in Race with destiny scare the hell out of me.
You will notice that as Vinnie Moore has grown and matured as a player, sweeping is a rarely heard technique in his repertoire. He now incorporates much more blues based lines which not only shows in his soloing with UFO, but also on his latest solo instrumental. I'm a much bigger fan as of recent...he's got great feel and killer chops...always did, but it shows more now.

Sweeping...snore.
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Old January 8th, 2010, 10:40 PM   #57 (permalink)
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i'm not a fan of sweeping anymore, at least not conventional sweeping. Gambale is the man IMO, his fucking altered dominant, maj/min 7th fucking sweeps are so hard. his technique is perfect and totally locked, its impossible to pull his shit off
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Old January 8th, 2010, 11:12 PM   #58 (permalink)
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It's a technique that's become cliche in most rock/metal contexts because 99% of those guys' concept of the technique are the basic, stock triadic (maybe a few 7th chords if you're lucky) arpeggio patterns that were played to death in the 80's when it was a bit less of a novelty. It ends up being a big "hey look at me, I can sweep pick and now I'm going to showcase it for you" kind of thing. They don't see it as a technique that it is highly useful and that can be used in far more beneficial (and musically pleasing) ways. As many have said, Gambale probably has the technique down better than anybody...and while I do think is playing get get a little monotonous, I don't think it's due to his picking technique. It comes down largely to the fact that for him it's a means of executing musical ideas whereas a lot of guys, mostly younger/immature players, do it more as a right of passage kind of thing...something they feel they are supposed to do because all their shred-heroes do it and it becomes a competitive/technique thing rather than a musical thing. I think we're all guilty of things like that, but it seems that not as many of us get past that point.

The same thing happened to tapping...a highly useful technique, but people fall into that trap of overdoing the Eruption-esque tapping ideas and it turns into a cheesy kind of thing.
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Old January 10th, 2010, 01:56 PM   #59 (permalink)
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I don't know who the best is technically, and I don't really care. Most of the time I feel that sweep picking sounds out-of-place, anyway - it's hard for me not to think that it's simply unnecessary wanking. However, I've never heard MJR do this - it always seems to fit the song with him (e.g. Smoke and Mirrors intro). I remember when I first started listening to Symphony X, I thought MJR swept in every solo, but it's just that crazy legato tap thing he does. I find this far more impressive than sweeping when done right - it sounds more fluid to me.
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Old January 10th, 2010, 06:38 PM   #60 (permalink)
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Oh, some guys do it well, others never stop

A bit off the BEATEN path but Steve Morse has done some awesome solos on many Deep Purple albums, been hearing a bunch of them lately
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Old January 10th, 2010, 07:03 PM   #61 (permalink)
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@DCB-See...no offense but the viewpoint you demonstrated there is kind of the problem with the whole thing. You're generalizing technical elements and looking past the musical effects (which can be, and often are, positive) they have.

EDIT: let me clarify...the technique has been almost demonized by certain circles because they only associate it with a very limited scope of what it can be used for. How often do you hear someone listening to Metallica say "downpicking again? so out of place, what a wanker", or listening to a death metal band and saying "ah shit....alternate picking? Grow up guys". People seem to be blaming the tool when they should be blaming the person using it...or criticizing the tool when they should be criticizing the final product.

razoredge- Are you getting at something with the Morse thing? I agree that he does a lot of awesome stuff...he's one of my favorites. I'm just not sure if you meant to make a connection or if you meant to go completely "off the beaten path" altogether.

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Old January 10th, 2010, 07:09 PM   #62 (permalink)
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Not a big fan of sweeping. It find it to be so overrated. Probably the hardest technique to get the hang of at first, but after that it's lather rinse and repeat.

I'm also amazed at people here calling Malmsteen the cleanest shredder or some shit like that. For fuck's sake, since when is Malmsteen recognized for his clean playing? In my opinion, MJR is cleaner than every guitarist mentioned here and sweeps better than most of them.

Oh, and it always makes me smile when I see comments like, "are you dumb? you forgot MAB is the fastest guitarist in the worldddddddddd"
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Old January 11th, 2010, 03:29 PM   #63 (permalink)
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Is it even a good thing to be considered the best sweep picker these days?
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Old January 11th, 2010, 03:50 PM   #64 (permalink)
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Me.
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Old January 11th, 2010, 05:20 PM   #65 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by razoredge View Post
Oh, some guys do it well, others never stop
Exactly. Since being an accurate sweeper is a hard thing to accomplish, guitarists tend to overuse it once they master it. After they spent tons of hours mastering the technique, many players want to have something to show for it and will stick it anywhere, regardless if it ruins the feeling of the solo or song. When sweeping fits, I think it's awesome - but in my mind it is completely unnecessary 99% of the time. The payoff for mastering such a difficult technique isn't there if you hardly ever use it, but a few guitarists are capable of restraining themselves.

Quote:
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@DCB-See...no offense but the viewpoint you demonstrated there is kind of the problem with the whole thing. You're generalizing technical elements and looking past the musical effects (which can be, and often are, positive) they have.

EDIT: let me clarify...the technique has been almost demonized by certain circles because they only associate it with a very limited scope of what it can be used for. How often do you hear someone listening to Metallica say "downpicking again? so out of place, what a wanker", or listening to a death metal band and saying "ah shit....alternate picking? Grow up guys". People seem to be blaming the tool when they should be blaming the person using it...or criticizing the tool when they should be criticizing the final product.
I understand what you're saying, but how many uses for sweep picking are there, really? Like I said above, when done right it sounds really nice - but usually it just comes off as pretentiously showoff. Things like downpicking and alternate picking have such a wide variety of uses, and don't even come close to the technical demands of sweep picking. Just my opinion.
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Old January 11th, 2010, 05:37 PM   #66 (permalink)
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How many uses? I'm not really sure how to answer that question. How many uses are there for alternate picking? downpicking? hybrid-picking? etc. I don't mean to poke fun at the question or even turn it around at you...I'm just not sure what kind of answer you want. I mean, there are at least as many uses for sweep picking/economy picking (whatever the popular name is these days) as there are for just about any other picking technique. Whether those other things have similar levels technical demands or not is highly debatable...and certainly for another thread, but again...I think the issue is that you are looking at the technique through a very narrow scope. Arpeggio-based things in the vein of the Smoke and Mirrors intro seem to be the only thing a lot of people associate the technique with.
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Old January 11th, 2010, 05:44 PM   #67 (permalink)
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I should also mention...I know some people don't use the terms "sweep picking" and "economy picking" interchangeably. I do, as I don't feel the semantic differences are enough to warrant different terms. That could be the disconnect here.
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Old January 11th, 2010, 06:08 PM   #68 (permalink)
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How about this one:

When is a sweep NOT an arpeggio? Even if it's some odd melody sequence, that can still be considered a chord of some kind or other.
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Old January 12th, 2010, 12:11 AM   #69 (permalink)
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Well, for those that have my view on the thing (see my post right before yours)....quite often. Even if not, once you start getting into non-tertial stuff, you're getting into musical vocabulary that is rarely used, especially in rock/metal contexts. At that point, it wont even matter as much because I doubt anybody would still lump those sounds in with the more stock, arpeggio-based stuff.

If you really wanted to take it to an extreme, EVERYTHING could be analyzed as an arpeggio depending on how far you want to stretch it, regardless of right hand technique. Which brings up another point...if it's the arpeggio-based vocabulary that is redundant for people complaining about sweep picking, do they feel the same way when those kinds of things are played using hybrid picking, alternate picking, hammer-ons/pull-offs, tapping, etc,? How about if it's on another instrument entirely?
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Old January 12th, 2010, 08:05 PM   #70 (permalink)
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To answer your second paragraph:

Yes, it's the same on any instrument. Arpeggiated chords are arpeggiated chords. I think you're splitting hairs for the sake of giving some kind of academic pomp to sweeping when it's just another technique in a bag full of many.
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Old January 12th, 2010, 09:15 PM   #71 (permalink)
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You read into that wrong, so I'll rephrase:

The musical vocabulary that is most often associated with sweep picking isn't exclusive to sweep picking, or even guitar. The technique isn't to blame for lame ideas...if anything, it's lack of creativity in the person using it.


I'm well aware of what an arpeggio is. There's no hair splitting or academic pomp...quite the opposite, I'm simply trying to prevent an approach/technique (one that's just as valid as any other) from being defined and categorized in a way that severely limits the way people view and/or use it. I agree completely that it's another technique in a bag full of many and that's kind of the point I'm trying to make...some people seem to want it kept out of the bag, while I'm trying to point out that it's a perfectly valid and useful approach to be used alongside all the others.
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Old January 12th, 2010, 09:15 PM   #72 (permalink)
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razoredge- Are you getting at something with the Morse thing? I agree that he does a lot of awesome stuff...he's one of my favorites. I'm just not sure if you meant to make a connection or if you meant to go completely "off the beaten path" altogether.
"off the beaten path" pun intended

he is a great alternate picker though... with taste to boot... imagine that
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Old January 12th, 2010, 09:21 PM   #73 (permalink)
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+1

I've been wanting to pick up his new solo record...just haven't gotten around to it.
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Old January 12th, 2010, 10:03 PM   #74 (permalink)
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here's the thing dude, everyone knows it's "valid". The fact that you're defending it so readily speaks otherwise though..

Whatev.
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Old January 12th, 2010, 11:32 PM   #75 (permalink)
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I dont get that ? Im not crazy about its rampant use but totally understand whats being said here.
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