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$5 sale at Amazon... (Past and Future PP Bands!)

Discussion in 'ProgPower USA' started by NVARAS, Dec 21, 2011.

  1. NVARAS

    NVARAS Member

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    It's way more complex than just having where to submit "donations". I think the principle can be discussed when we get the practical issue out of the way... and have a conversation with a proponent of the idea that has actually done it. That is why I think that the list of band you have sent money to in the last year when downloading from an illegal torrent site would be good to have. Can you provide that? Just curious.

    After that... then we can discuss if a small band or independent artist has the capacity to distribute in competition with Amazon, Itunes, etc... in this climate of illegal downloads. Someone mentioned it before in the thread... it's like expecting the farmer to be farmer, butcher, distributor, and cook at the same time.
     
  2. Creeps

    Creeps Member

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    Downloading from Amazon and paying for it = legal

    Downloading form a torrent/site for free = not

    People can and do get caught downloading illegally. If you happen to be tracked while you are doing it, then your "Free" download with a "donation" to the band just turned into an out of court settlement averaging $2,000-$3,500 instead of your "$3". Of course you can fight it, but the law is not in your favor one they track the IP address to your home.

    Bands don't get paid astronomical amounts of money from album sales (unless your Michael Jackson) no matter where you obtain the LEGALLY purchased album.

    I'm sure there are plenty of other threads regarding this that the discussion can continue on in. I was pretty sure this was a thread for people enjoying the $5 album sale while it lasts.
     
  3. Sumeet

    Sumeet Member

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    How is it more complex? If most artists had this available (recognizing that some artists want their music to be freely distributed), wouldn't this whole discussion be moot?

    I think not. One has to start from a rational principle before putting it into practice. Putting the cart before the horse can lead to consequences ranging from annoying to disastrous. Fortunately, since we're only talking about downloading music files, disastrous consequences are unlikely.

    Sorry, but this is a ridiculous concept. You don't have to do something or talk to someone who did it in order to be able to analyze it. You don't need to talk to someone who actually shot himself in the foot in order to analyze the logic or consequences of it.

    Why would it be good to have? Also, please point to where I positioned myself as someone who is interested in mp3s at all. Can you provide that? Just curious.

    We've already established above that this is irrelevant to the actual discussion, but since you're a swell guy, I'll help you out by satiating your curiosity. Bands I have sent money to in the past year: none. Bands whose music I have downloaded mp3s of in the past year: none. Bands whose music I purchased on CD and ripped my own lossless files of in the past year: probably about 40 (quite a bit less than what I used to get per year... my current project is to rip and / or listen to several hundred albums I've gotten over the last decade but hardly listened to).

    Yes; someone mentioned it, and I addressed how that's not a good comparison. Did you not read my post?

    EDIT: Keep in mind as well, as I clarified in my response to Creeps, I'm not demanding that anyone who enjoys downloading mp3s from Amazon should not continue to do so... but I also see no problem with talking about possible alternatives.
     
  4. Sumeet

    Sumeet Member

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    Let's be clear here; are you addressing the morality of the very concept of downloading an audio file, or are you addressing fear of retribution? The reason I ask is that these two concepts are often conflated. "Laws" have nothing to do with morality, they only have to do with fear. If a guy in a suit somewhere declares that anyone who downloads something is going to get the shit kicked out of them, that has no bearing on the morality of the proposition, that just means that guy in a suit has some people on his payroll who he can use to force people to do what he wants them to do. So, "legal" and "illegal" are terms that have no bearing on morality, they only relate to how much of a threat there is of someone attacking you for doing something. Fortunately, in this case, downloading being "illegal" carries about as much of a threat as driving 56 miles an hour in a 55 mph zone. Probably even less, actually. There have been a couple people who various record or movie companies have tried to attack as being "violators", but the reason those get publicity is because they're so rare. Well, that and the "press" is often owned or associated with the very same record or movie companies. So if we're looking at the actual situation on the ground, I think it's unlikely that any significant number of people are quaking in their boots every time they click a link on a bittorrent site.

    Ok... but this just supports the idea that the band would actually make more money if someone got the album "illegally" then sent them money directly.

    I do agree on this. If someone enjoys getting these audio files through Amazon, they should by all means continue to do so. I have no problem with that, should anyone choose to do it. But that doesn't mean we can't also mention potential alternatives.
     
  5. skyrefuge

    skyrefuge Member

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    Masturbation and extra-marital affairs are also pretty normal in society, but that's not what a social norm is. Like downloading-for-free, people generally don't publicize these behaviors, because they know they will likely face socially negative consequences. Yes, these consequences may be arbitrary and illogical, but that's just how it is. The fact that you scoff at people who use comfortable and sanctioned channels to pay for a product indicates that your understanding of human behavior is odd at best.

    This chart indicates that paying a sanctioned vendor for electronically-distributed music continues to become more "normal" every year, at a rate that's accelerating, so you're gonna have to work really hard if you want to make people realize how dumb they're being!

    I think you quite underestimate the number of players still involved to get music to your ears. You get no value from the people who wrote the music? No value from the manager that kept the band off drugs? No value from the producer who made it sound halfway decent? And no value from the money the record label invested in promotion, without which you would have never even heard anyone on the Internet talking about it? Yes, there are certainly fewer players in the chain than there were before, but that doesn't mean you can collapse that "few" to "one", and on top of that, arbitrarily decide that the "one" player that creates value is the recording musician(s). This is what I meant by my Big Mac analogy, I was similarly deciding arbitrarily and unilaterally that the beef producer was the only value producer.

    Whether we're talking about physical or electronic products is fairly irrelevant. Whether you're stealing a Big Mac and sending money to the beef producer, stealing TV shows (either by tapping into a cable line or downloading) and sending money to the actors, or downloading music and sending money to the recording artist, the point is that you're arbitrarily bypassing key members of the supply chain, members who all have agreements with each other on how to split the revenue. Heck, even if you find some way to send money to "the band", the drummer might just keep it all for himself because it's not a channel the other band members even know to expect revenue from.

    For a truly independent musician, who writes, records, promotes, and distributes his own music, your suggestion makes sense. However:

    1) That musician likely already has a preferred point of download (such as Bandcamp) that doubles as their preferred point of payment, so if you were going to send money straight to the artist that would be the place to do it; it would be silly to download the music elsewhere.

    2) Truly independent musicians have nothing to do with this thread. I bet every single one of the musicians mentioned in this thread has signed agreements to split revenue with other parties.

    3) Even the "independent" musician still splits revenue. 15% goes to Bandcamp if they use that site. 5%+ goes to PayPal if you use your idea of sending the musician money that way. In fact, an independent musician selling mp3s through Amazon using CDBaby as his digital distributor would get $3.19 for a $5 retail sale, while the $3 you sent him directly would become $2.80 after PayPal took their fee. So in that case the *musician* would even prefer that you buy through Amazon!

    Neil
     
  6. Wishmaster

    Wishmaster Heavy Metal Llama!

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    We at Halcyon Way would love to take your donations! Just head on over to our Web Shop, and purchase any one of our CDs or shirts. All of the production costs have already been paid by the band, so an order from the website sends all the cash to us (minus the cost of shipping your purchase to your door).

    We also take donations! Head on over to PayPal, and send your money to us at halcyonwayband@aol.com! We need cash to help cover the costs of our tour with Delain next spring, so thanks in advance for your support!

    Want to donate even more? Then head back over to our Web Shop, and click the Donate button at the top to send a few bucks to the Atlanta Cancer Care Foundation. This is where Jon had his treatments to kick cancer's ass. They provide a wonderful service to help families cope with the costs of dealing with cancer, and I'm sure they'd love to have your support.


    Thanks!
     
  7. halcyonwayband@aol.com

    halcyonwayband@aol.com Guitars - Halcyon Way

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    ^ this....hahaha we are shameless!
     
  8. dcowboys311

    dcowboys311 Member

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    Much like the RIAA did recently, eh?
     
  9. Sumeet

    Sumeet Member

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    In my experience, publicizing these behaviors is more common these days with online communication and such. And even if someone chooses not to publicize them, I get the sense that the general environment is less scornful that it may have been in the past about publicizing sexual behavior. However, that is admittedly just my impression... if you have a graph indicating otherwise, I'd actually be interested to know. But masturbation and extramarital affairs aside, I'd venture to say that one likely faces very little in terms of socially negative consequences as a result of publicizing downloading. I mean, what socially negative consequences does one face... a couple people on message boards or facebook getting annoyed?

    If they are arbitrary and illogical, then you and I should both be trying to dissuade people of them, not just accepting that "that's just how it is". Not that anyone can devote all their time to trying to convince people of things, but whatever small amount of time one has available to spend on it should be used to spread logical ideas, not promote acceptance of illogical ones, right?

    As I've said, I don't have any actual problem with people getting these files from Amazon... if that's what they like doing, fantastic. I've bought a lot of stuff from Amazon myself over the years. Not mp3s, but a lot of physical products, to be sure. But I also think that mentioning potential alternatives not a bad thing to do either. I think attempting to gauge my understanding of human behavior based on this is odd at best.

    I don't know that this signifies people being dumb, at least inasmuch as I never said anyone was dumb for downloading music from Amazon. But whether they are or not, there are much more important things that people are being dumb about in the world... things that actually adversely affect me... so I'll likely concentrate more on those things. Also, that chart only shows the number of sales on the Itunes store... it doesn't give us any kind of comparison between how many people are downloading via Itunes vs obtaining music in any other way.

    Quite possble; I have no inside expertise of the industry, so there's a fair chance I missed something.

    I'm including producers / engineers / audio technicians under the category "people who recorded the music". I'm not exactly sure where the manager falls there, but I suppose that can vary quite a bit by band.

    That's tough to figure, but you raise an interesting point there. At this point in time, I personally get very little information about music directly from record labels. Almost all of the info on new music I get at this point is from other people on message boards and such. There are some bands or fans of bands who have no label, from whom I've gotten good info, so obviously a label didn't play a role there. But for bands that are on a label, even if I did not get the information directly from the label, did the person I got the information from get it from the label, or did they get it from someone who got it from the label, etc. Of course, I have no feasible way of knowing that.


    I understand where you're coming from with the big mac analogy, however, my whole point here is to question the value of the supply chain in delivering music to consumers in this day and age... whereas no one has any question about value of the supply chain in delivering big macs to consumers.

    That sounds more like an interpersonal problem between band members... one which might occur even aside from sending money directly to the band. But yes, I do agree that this whole process would work better if the band had a channel on their website or something, from which they knew to potentially expect donations.

    Agreed. But this kind of thing is basically what I'm talking about to begin with. I imagine Amazon is even the preferred payment point for some musicians.

    I agree. Since this thread is about bands whose music is available on Amazon, all the bands mentioned in this thread have music available on Amazon... so undoubtedly every one of the musicians mentioned in this thread has agreed to split revenue with at least one other party.

    Indeed... but if a band / musician explicitly prefers that you buy through Amazon, that strongly suggests they are actually making some significant-to-them amount of money as a result of that Amazon sale. And if that's what they prefer, then presumably the theoretical donation link on their website would simply be a link to Amazon. I mean, obviously if a band feels that putting up a donation link on their website is going to violate an agreement they made with some other party, then they would not choose to do it. The info you mentioned about CDBaby is interesting IMO, and I will keep that in mind for potential future purchases. As far as the Bandcamp percentage charge, one imagines that the band thinks or hopes that using Bandcamp will increase sales by more than 15%, in order to justify the charge. The idea of accepting money on their own website through Paypal is simply a concession to the notion that they probably aren't going to bring in enough revenue through that channel (at least not at the start), to spend the money to be able to directly process credit card charges. In that sense, at least making the option easily available to file-sharers who would otherwise not pay them anything, increases the chance that the occasional person will send them something, and even with the 5% processing fee, presumably getting the occasional 95% of $3 is better than getting 100% of $0.
     
  10. Sumeet

    Sumeet Member

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    Cool, thanks for the info. This does raise an interesting question though... you sell your CDs directly on your website for $15, whereas they are each around $11.80 on the aforementioned Amazon. One would generally think that Amazon, being a middleman, would have to charge a markup... so does this mean that you sell the discs in bulk to Amazon for a much lower price than you sell them individually on your website, or is there another factor that I'm missing?

    Anyway, as I said, thanks for the info... Halcyon Way does indeed kick ass, and I've purchased your CDs at the vendor tables at ProgPower over the years... I recommend them highly, especially Building The Towers.
     
  11. Wishmaster

    Wishmaster Heavy Metal Llama!

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    HW's albums are distributed through Nightmare and Sony RED, which in turn provide the product to outlets such as Amazon. The band gets a set amount per disc, and the rest covers costs for the other parties involved, as with any deal like this. The extra few bucks you pay to buy direct from us covers the shipping costs with a little left over to help offset other operational expenses (production, travel, merch, etc). Since this isn't a profitable venture for the band, every little bit we can get without ripping off the fans helps keep the machine going.

    Thanks for your support, and we're glad you liked Building The Towers! :headbang:
     
  12. Sumeet

    Sumeet Member

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    Ah, ok, I see what you mean... thanks for the additional info.

    Here's something odd... even though I've seen the image several times before, it only just occurred to me from looking at your signature that some of the people on the cover of Indoctrination have blue ties and some have red ties, and symbolism behind that. I guess you learn something new every day, heh. :cool:
     
  13. Wishmaster

    Wishmaster Heavy Metal Llama!

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    Good eye. ;) More than a little thought was put into designing the artwork for both Building The Towers and IndoctriNation.
     
  14. NVARAS

    NVARAS Member

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    Thank you... that is all I needed to know...
     
  15. Sumeet

    Sumeet Member

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    Are you borderline illiterate? Have reading comprehension issues, perhaps?
     
  16. NVARAS

    NVARAS Member

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    That is exactly it... I don't agree with you... so I must be illiterate. So astute and ingenious.
     
  17. Sumeet

    Sumeet Member

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    I've disagreed with many people over the years, including in this very thread, and have still been able to have a rational discussion with them. However, clearly you are either incapable of understanding what I said, or are deliberately choosing to ignore some parts and misconstrue others. I have no way of knowing which is the case, but it's certainly one of the two. Given this, it clearly makes no sense for me to continue engaging in this discussion. Good day to you.
     
  18. NVARAS

    NVARAS Member

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    Let me be clear then, and I will post nothing more on the subject. Raining on the parade of those that want to download legally from Amazon for $5... unfair. Your proposal... illegal. Posting your illegal idea as a better alternative without having personal empirical evidence of its usefulness... irresponsible. Using personal attacks on those that disagree... childish.

    Good day to you too.
     
  19. Pellaz

    Pellaz Tigron of Immanion

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    Umm..

    <small voice>

    Is the $5 sale on these albums still on at Amazon?
     
  20. RGiles

    RGiles Member

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    Seems like it is still on
     

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