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An anti-pirate curious about the warez enemy!

Discussion in 'F.O.H.' started by REDBOX04, Apr 26, 2009.

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  1. Skinny Viking

    Skinny Viking ¯\(°_o)/¯ How do Lydian?

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    ^ Fuck you dude

    How's that one for ya?

    I love when some new guy jumps in, contributes nothing and then talks shit about how people act here

    Its pretty obvious you're trolling however, fuck you all the same
     
  2. guitarguru777

    guitarguru777 Member

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    LOL .... he already posted here on THIS FORUM from his own ISP dumbass ...lol
     
  3. guitarguru777

    guitarguru777 Member

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    As professionals we really need to start helping to crack down on this shit.
     
  4. hosnappp

    hosnappp Member

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    I'm talking about other people who may want to come here in the future. You've made it very obvious now that they need only use a proxy to bypass your attempts.

    Think ahead. Critical thinking. I know you meant the one guy. You're the one who didn't understand what I was saying. Don't call someone a dumb-ass when you're the one without a grip on the conversation.

    And I've been on these forums for years. Some of those years, without an account, some of them with one. Oftentimes, it's to get some information of criticism. My account should not be a testament to how long I've been here or what I know about these forums.

    Furthermore, whether or not I just got here, people being dicks/lame/annoying/stupid is not approximated by the maturity of my stay.

    Pay more attention to what you're saying. Anyone who's replied to me. And make sure you know what it is, exactly, that your reply is regarding.
     
  5. drew_drummer

    drew_drummer Dancefap

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    Sorry, but if you think I was being aggressive, perhaps you need a reality check? Or maybe drink a few beers at a bar and start a conversation with a random stranger and see what happens! :loco:

    Nah. I wasn't being aggressive. But from my perspective, you're part of the problem, and my post was aimed at you because I was addressing the points you made.

    There you go. First three words. I was challenging your assumption that it is true that if someone wasn't going to buy the software anyway, then it makes no difference to the companies. False. Not true.

    You're the one being defensive mate. I answered your post with some well thought out (and non-confrontational) criticism, and offered you reasons why I thought your statements were wrong.

    And all I get back is what? "Stop picking on me! Stop being so aggressive!"

    That doesn't quite wash with me. I'd suggest if you think I was merely repeating a lot of what you said, that you go back and read again. Our opinions are fairly diametric. You were trying to intellectualize theft of software, offering reasons for why it was okay, or why it doesn't matter. I was countering them.

    Now before you respond - I haven't called you names, I haven't twisted your words, I haven't posted a goatse picture, and I haven't been aggressive. We're just two people talking about a topic, and we're being real about it. If you don't want that, then the discussion can end easily. Your call.
     
  6. drew_drummer

    drew_drummer Dancefap

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    Oh, and when I said this:

    I was sort of talking about all the cracked copies of EZDrummer going round, resulting in shite crabcore. :devil:
     
  7. colton

    colton Member

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    Huh? Where did I talk shit about how people act on here in this thread? I stated my opinion that I thought someone's comparison of justification between two wrong doings was absurd. Then I was called an idiot, too fucking stupid to comprehend a single thought, etc. by regular posters who I wasn't even addressing because the way I stated my opinion must have rubbed them the wrong way. I was very blunt with my opinion because I thought it was that absurd. I wasn't trolling.

    I've lurked this place since Mike posted the old Abhorrent demos back in 09 or so. Haven't posted much because I get all my info from the Sneap google search. To say I contribute nothing is wrong too. Maybe not in this thread, but I don't think that's what you were referring to. Read all my posts, there aren't that many.
     
  8. drew_drummer

    drew_drummer Dancefap

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    Not sure he was talking to you???
     
  9. colton

    colton Member

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    He said, "fuck you dude" while pointing at my post. If he was addressing someone else, it would have been helpful to actually quote him. Plus, it's pretty obvious imo.
     
  10. drew_drummer

    drew_drummer Dancefap

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    Oh. Okay.

    Well...

    Fuck you dude!
     
  11. Loren Littlejohn

    Loren Littlejohn Lover of all boobage.

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    It certainly is less offensive.
     
  12. colton

    colton Member

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    cheers.
     
  13. bogchop

    bogchop Stiff Member

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    1. There is much widespread piracy of the app store, all it takes is a jailbreak and an install of Hackulous. Then, 1 tap app downloads galore. Hell, even the piracy delivery system is 10x better than hitting thepirate bay, grabbing a torrent + torrent client and waiting for that thing that might be virus free :eek:. The apple platform IS closed, but the people have created an alternate by means of bypassing security with jailbreaks - Cydia store for example.

    I actually did read an article a few days ago about a particular developer that had sold roughly ~1000 odd copies of his application, making it relatively new. He then received stats on how many users were using it in the game centrer (some sort of social gaming network hub), and it was about 5000 odd users if I remember correctly. And this is just one example. Piracy IS widespread on the appstore, but most people wouldn't go looking for that information. I'll provide a link if I can locate the article. I think the game was fairly cheap, but this is proof enough that ~4000 people are fucking cheapskates regardless, and will continue to pirate regardless of price, no argument there. Proof enough. I can guarantee though, that when the guy DOES have a sale more copies will be sold, and when he DOES reduce his price permanently, it will sell more.

    Working in a software development/testing environment myself for a financial institution (and having friends that also work in similar fields), I can tell you right now - it's always a case of what we think the market will stomach = your willingness to pay out the ass until you turn white. Every time a bank charges you a "fee" for processing, that's a crock of shit but it started somewhere for very cheap and made its way up. Every time you buy a ticket to a gig/movie, you get charged a processing fee, booking fee or some other well thought out fisting - more shit. This has become the norm and people are more willing to accept it. Those that don't will sneak into the movie, jump the fence or hide their monies in the bottom sock drawer. Those people will always exist. And then, some people are just nice about asking how deep you're willing to dig: i.e: Ermz's eBook. :D

    2. We can talk all day about perception, but in my example, the shirts are are made from egyptian cotton, not your run-of-the-mill K-Mart branded cheapo-blend, $30 super saver stuff. They ARE of a higher quality than most other shirts out there, and definitely do last longer -- as witnessed by my colleagues and I. Same goes for their other range of clothes. You cannot buy this sort of stuff cheaper anywhere else (in Australia at least), without taking a dive in quality for a cheaper product. Sort of like our computer parts mogul, MSY. They have dirt cheap hardware and very rarely do you find another retailer that has the same product but at a cheaper price. The masses line up at these sorts of stores not for the service (because there is none), but for the prices. Anyone familiar with these guys would happily back that up.

    I like to think most people can understand the concept of 'value' and what a true rip off really is. But there are different facets of value. If you buy a Lexus, you're paying a bit of a premium over a Ford for the extra niceties. Both cars will still get you there from A to B. If you buy a Ferrari, you're pretty much buying it for the penis extension, ability to do 300km/h in a 50 zone while nobody is looking, or you have bottomless pockets. You'll still get from A to B, but having people stare at you/bragging rights is 'value' to some. It becomes a slippery slope at that point.

    The argument here is not about retailers dictating prices, but consumer willingness to pay X dollars for X product. Lower the bar to something reasonable and the people will come. I asked around at work, and the only response I got back was "hell yeah, if Microsoft lowered the price on a copy of Office 2011 to say $50 a pop, I'd totally do it. OpenOffice or cracked copy of 2k11 otherwise". Over a sample of 5 people, the most common reasons were:

    • It's much more reasonable than $200 for a single license
    • Don't have to screw around with cd keys/cracks, need for IT geek help
    • Time/cost factor reduced greatly
    • Willing to pay it as alternatives aren't almost as good

    A family member recently purchased a 3 version home edition license for $150. They now enjoy a trouble free experience on all 3 laptops. 5 years ago all I heard was "What the fuck, $495 for a standard copy of office? Bullshit. Download me a copy instead, please". Thankfully, I dont waste my time with that shit anymore ;)

    3. Not sure how it classifies as conjecture. Don't know much about reaper, so cant comment there - I'm a Studio One user. There is so much shit out there that I could get right now if I had a need/purpose for. Tell me:

    Easier to pinch an SSL desk located in somebody else's studio, behind lock and key.

    OR

    Easier to hit the pirate bay and load up a torrent for an SSL plugin?

    I'd bet my left nut that more people on this board would have a copied plugin than compared to those with a stolen console :p

    ---

    At the end of the day, piracy will always exist. I do not offer a solution for removing it entirely, nor do I offer justification for doing it. I personally perceive a lot of software to be expensive, and lowering price is one good way to decrease the amount of piracy. There are those that WILL pirate regardless, those that will SAMPLE before they jump and those that will buy it first up. I know examples of all of these people on these forums personally. I do however, offer developers an alternative to increasing time spent copy protecting their wares and having their shit inevitably stolen. Lower your prices. Plenty of other real world examples where this theory works and the only hindrance is peoples' willingness to take that leap.
     
  14. bogchop

    bogchop Stiff Member

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    I'd totally buy that if I needed it, and anyone whinging about that is probably money poor.

    You and me both. Funny that, after finishing our meal at a local mexican joint, Ermz stood up and said something along the lines of, "congratulations guys, the cost of this meal for each of you is equivalent to 1 of my eBooks - would you forgo tonight's meal for an awesome bit of reading that will help you more than the food on the table tonight?".

    I too think he's selling it too cheaply, but then he probably fears if he goes too expensive people will pinch/not buy it instead. For some here, money is a big thing and putting that extra $10 on the table will mean a world of hurt for them - others see this as 'value' that they're willing to pay up for :p


    Respect comes down to the individual. For example: I have no problem eating home-branded, no-frills foods. They're proven to be as good in quality, if not better in some cases! I will continue to buy it and do as I please with it. Manufacturer gets his cut. If this model didn't work, volume-based selling stores like CostCo/Walmart/MSY/insert-your-local-volume-seller-here would be shit out of luck and out of business. However, they're still around... so there must be a manufacturer or ten-thousand out there making a living, supplying them with shit.

    Some shit *needs* to be expensive for the SAKE of being expensive, to appease the filthy rich/self important/dreamers. Like Ferrari's for example. If everyone had one, nobody would care for it and it surely wouldn't be worth the cost of a home :p

    Fair opinion, but you probably need to check that one. A group buy is a bunch of people buying MORE stuff at a discounted rate. How is this at all different from a retailer with 100 stores buying their shit in bulk? It isn't, it just has a different name to it. Same amount of product / money will transact, regardless of who initiated the transaction.

    And remember, everyone (well, almost) out there is out to make money. Money brings food, shelter and a host of other necessities to get through the day. Others can live on sunshine, happiness and rainbows or whatever the hell allows them to sustain life :Spin:

    From a producer perspective, yes - absolutely. Consumer's are the ones with cash, though. Think about that while you're pricing it @ $60 a pop to 100 legitimate users, and have 500 other people stealing it - $6k in your pocket with $30k for the other 500 ppl not paying up.

    OR, $20 which more people might find rather reasonable - 100 people who would have bought it anyway, and *maybe* half of those 500 thieves got the guilts = 350 people * 20 = $7k.


    Awesome - that is definitely your choice to make. Heaps of artists go about it in whatever way they feel comfortable. These guys did something unique, and scored a fuck-tonne of poo change. Advantage here is obviously a built up following, but if the product is good enough in the first place, you can work with it down the track.

    Heaps of guys on the internets give away their shit for free. Musicians, programmers, poets -- whatever. If their stuff is good enough, good things will eventually come. Some examples might include the Arctic Monkeys - they got big by posting demos on myspace, didn't they? Bulb is even more of a niche artist, but has about ~80,000 fans on Periphery's facebook page. Quite an achievement for a bedroom act. Most developers who code console emulators dont see a dime (NO$GMB/bleem/CVGS would be an exception), but still put it out there and manage to keep their day jobs.

    Software is already shit, but that's just my personal opinion. I see it every day with what I do and what I use. That, and I think you'd be overly astounded as to how much development is actually done in countries like India, China, etc... :err:

    A lot of these people are also poor for various reasons. Having visited an actual sweatshop in Shenzhen China, I got to see first hand and ask questions. Every single person in that building had nothing outside of work, no home or shelter. Yes, they did work some tough hours doing the same shit over and over, but it provided them with a means of income (~$40AUD/week for those interested) they did not have before. THey get paid like shit in comparison to us, but that's how the cookie crumbles for some.
     
  15. bogchop

    bogchop Stiff Member

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    LOL. Do not mis-interprit my words for anything else OTHER than a pro-active, preventative measure - the cure is a long way off.

    I worked in retail for 4 years selling office goods: laptops, printers, desks, chairs, etc. There was plenty of things we couldn't sell, no matter what - shit products I called them. Then there was heaps of other stuff that was priced just a wee bit too high, and many people wanted them but couldn't afford them. That is not a license to steal, however you go about doing it. The shit products would be heavily discounted and that was the only way to move them. The nice stuff was discounted to a reasonable point, enough so that people would be able to afford.

    I bought my first iPod @ $800 IIRC, and most people just couldn't afford it at the time: 40GB with monochrome screen. I saved for 3 months and bam, was in business. Nowadays, they're so damn cheap @ $299 for a 160GB model that will hold plenty. Apple have come down gradually over time, to a point where more people are buying. More than they sold at $800 a pop, yesiree.

    Yes, alternatives exist and people are free to chose. HOWEVER, in that time, lots and *lots* of people stole straight from under our noses - thieves who were in it to steal, steal, steal. Regardless of their motive for doing so (pawn shop, mental condition, simply not wanting to pay), people did it anyway. And you know what? It WILL continue to happen, just as piracy WILL continue to happen.

    Side note: It was an office supplies/furniture/technology 'superstore' that would engage in "group buys" for product replenishment, especially from countries that have rampant slave labor - same as almost every other company you've dealt with. Just look down at your shoes and clothes, chances are some poor 17 year old kid put time into them.

    ---

    So, what is the point here?

    Reducing price is a means/avenue/option to sell more than is currently being sold. Once you accept this fact, something that all retailers do, re-visit your worldview and admit to yourself that it can be used as a way to combat piracy. Even if you remove the # of people taking your product for zip, you're still selling X amount. Reduce your price and you will sell X+1, in the hopes that more will buy it and yield greater profit margins.

    Maybe a couple of years in retail will show you this. If you already work retail, maybe you aren't paying attention to the sales figures on specials/discounts. Time to pay attention dude :)
     
  16. drew_drummer

    drew_drummer Dancefap

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    All good points, and I'm by no means saying you should never reduce your prices, or price things cheaply. But what I am saying is the manufacturer should get to decide - not some kid with Azureus and TPB :)

    FWIW, I cannot afford the mercury bundle at all. It's just too much cash to splash down at a single time - if I saved up, sure. But there are better plugins out there for cheaper prices, and they don't come with the baggage of being a Waves plugin. :lol:

    ValhallaRoom for instance - beats the Lexicon stuff to my ears, and is $50.
     
  17. guitarguru777

    guitarguru777 Member

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    Not sure if Lasse as seen this since is ressurection, I have emailed him and asked him to get rid of it, we dont need hacked software links popping up in the ads up top.
     
  18. SocialNumb

    SocialNumb Damn Christians!

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    It's against the law!


    /thread
     
  19. egan.

    egan. daylightdies.com

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    @bogchop. I'll spare everyone quoting the your whole post. I agree with a lot of what you're saying. What I'm saying is that the supply/price/demand and price to theft ratio may not shift things into higher earnings. Obviously for each product there is a bell curve of maximum incomes. As you described with your office example it's a lot about making the price less than the effort to steal and hopefully picking up sales from non-users (pirate or legit) as well. The problem is that is with really expensive stuff you may never be able to reach that point (while sustaining a support model).
    Microsoft is a unique model in that they live in die based on OEM, institutional and business sales and their pricing structure has long given the finger to the non-OEM home user. We'll see how they proceed in an era of OO and $70 apple OSX upgrades.
     
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