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Discussion in 'F.O.H.' started by REDBOX04, Apr 26, 2009.
What are you talking about.
I was referring to this. It's an utter bullshit 'point' - trying to justify shitting on someone's lawn as free fertilizer. These companies can do whatever marketing they actually want to do, so it's incredibly arrogant on the part of illegal users to think that they know better than the manufacturer how to market a product; they also don't want their product being 'advertised' in this way, so it's a violation of their rights.
Oh ok, yeah i can agree completely with that. That's exactly the point i was making, if you shit on someone's lawn it's free fertilizer. I wasn't trying to justify it nor was I trying to say the negatives outweight the positives i was just saying the positives do exist. Albeit a pretty obvious point.
Wow, this is a really good discussion going on.
I think it's important to note what people who use pirated software do with the money that they save. I'm sure a lot of them would end up spending it on other music equipment that can't be pirated. I think it's still fundamentally about the nature of hardware vs. software. For example, a while back Orange had their warehouse broken into and had a bunch of amps stolen. This is far more damaging for Orange than piracy would be for a software company because the software company can make as many copies of their product as they want without having to pay for anything past the amount that it cost to initially develop it (except for maybe packaging, which is becoming more and more obsolete, and even non existent for many of plugins out there). Companies that make physical products have to pay materials, labor, warehousing, distribution etc. for every single unit produced, and that's on top of how much it cost to develop the product. Being a software company is a double edged sword. Not having to deal with the logistics of a physical product is balanced out by being susceptible to piracy.
As far as pirating in general, I think it also depends on what you're pirating as to whether it's moral or not. In fact, i would encourage people to pirate products from large multinational corporate entities like e.g. movies, major label music, tv shows etc. Far too much power is centralized in the world of media. This is far more of a danger than swine-flu or terrorism will ever be. The same corporations that own the news own pretty much all the movie studios and record labels out there. The only real way to hurt them is to cut into their profits since the sole purpose of a corporation is to maximize profits. A lot of the higher level rippers are fully aware of this and they view their activities as an attempt to hurt these entities. Obviously this argument doesn't fly for a small plugin company whose plugin you just downloaded, but if it's the Wolverine movie or the new kanye west album than I would encourage people to go nuts. To me that is completely moral, even though it may be illegal. And frankly, i don't really about the legality anywhere near as much as i do about the morality. As far as i'm concerned the law is utterly and completely immoral: Pot is illegal, and all the heinous shit going on on wall street is legal as well deforestation, toxic waste being dumped in lakes etc. The only real reason to obey the law is to avoid the consequences, because it sure as hell ain't about morality.
That said, it's absolutely vital that people support smaller, decentralized businesses that aren't under the umbrella of one of the small handful of companies that own about 90% of the worlds media.
Also, i would encourage people to start buying vinyl when available. The sound quality is way better, as well as the aesthetics. I haven't bought a cd in years, but lately i've been buying loads of vinyl and i feel far more satisfied with the money i spent.
Somehow this turned into a rant, so i'll stop myself here.
Thats a huge generalization there mate there is no way your going to know how much specific products are costing cradle to grave without looking at their accounts and its very much product specific. Certain software products may have very large R & D costs which you are unaware about
Orange gets broken into, several heads go missing, covered by insurance, no big deal, not much out of pocket, still illegal though,
Waves mercury bundle gets pirated thousands of times, maybe a possible 2% of those pirates were willing to pay for the bundle in the end, but they have had it that long now that they think, meh, I'll spend it on something else, so Waves losses say 20 odd sales at $10,000 each ($200,000), which would go towards more research into developing better software. (Not covered by insurance). That to me is a much bigger loss than Orange.
Still cant come to grips with the "its alright to rip the bigger companies, just not the smaller ones" syndrome. All be it movie companies, media or software companies. Just a cop out really:Smug:
Hey Arkadin, A company wants to make money, so you want to hurt them, WTF!
Well I'm guessing he means the few corporations who basically run the entire pyramid of business. Admit it, there are corporations with disgusting amounts of money, and it's not strange at all that people hate people with too much of anything.
I for one, am settled if I have enough money to live a normal life, buy food, pay rent, and a little left over to spend on equipment for whatever I wanna do. I honestly don't want to become filthy rich, there is no need for it. In fact, I can say with confidence, that being filthy rich would make me really unhappy in the end. That is my moral and the way I think, which also affects the way I think about the world. I'm not sorry for corporations that hold so much money that they could like... I dunno, feed an entire country for "some" time.
Remember, economy is a system with balance, so in order for one person to have more money than the others, the others have to have less money than that person (quite self-explanatory). Everyone can't be rich in the world, or else there is no point in working at all, thus, everything collapses onto itself.
You can call me a pirate-communist-hippy-tree-hugger if you want, I don't really care, but my point is that it is totally ok and not unreasonable that some people are against corporations that own "too much". I don't get it why "being equal" is regarded so bad by some people.
Oh and this post doesn't really have anything to do with piracy I'm all for paying for the software I use so.
Arkadin, a few things.
First, I doubt that the hardware - the materials actually stolen - are all (or even a majority) of the price of the amplifiers. The biggest part of their price is R&D, service and testing, and so on. That point has already been refuted on more than one occasion. On the 'double-edged sword', software companies have a distinct disadvantage of even greater vulnerability to theft - which STILL hurts them, no matter how long you spend trying to jam your fingers into your ears screaming "LALALA THEY CAN MAKE MORE COPIES!", and cannot be done away with. If you want to keep deluding yourself into thinking that Robin Hood was a hero and that property rights are invalid, go ahead - but you're going to need much stronger arguments.
Second, while I'm no fan at all of the RIAA, MPAA, STFUMFAA, or any organizations like that, doing evil to the evil is not necessarily good. This exact mindset is actually why we're dealing with massive lawsuits, overbearing DRM, and lovely things along those lines, so it's not like you can actually claim to see even the good outweighing the bad. You're also hurting a lot of people who aren't even remotely evil - people whose only apparent 'sin' is taking a mix job and not letting self-righteous, completely misinformed nonsense stop them from doing their job.
Finally, while you're blathering about how morality and legality are separate, note that most of the arguments presented *are* moral. When I make references to legality, without disclaiming that I'm talking about U.S. law specifically, 'morality' can be easily substituted in by anyone that accepts basic property rights.
Gojira, there's a strong and troubling trend in your posts that should be addressed. You have an odd tendency to try to take misinformed potshots at other people's viewpoints (or at least what you think are other people's viewpoints) with uncharacteristically unsound 'reasoning' - in that post, the line
is pretty awful. Those of us who aren't dirty communists have a problem with 'being forced into something that a state tells us is equality', not 'being equal' - there's a huge difference, and one just happens to be a violation of human rights, an ineffective way of running a community, and a surefire way to ruin the lives of many who aren't happy about being considered nothing more than a blob of pink gelatin.
Remarks like that would be better made into their own thread. This isn't the time or place to advocate socialism, bash the free market, or try to fluoridate our precious bodily fluids.
Perhaps, but do you care to explain the "potshots at other people's viewpoints"? I just re-read my previous post again and I don't get what you're saying.
I don't understand why you would be a blob of pink gelatin in a society that was more towards socialism than capitalism. There will always be room for rich people, they will just have to pay a bit more taxes and bear more responsibility in a society based on socialism. When you say "Those of us who aren't dirty communists", are you implying I am a dirty communist because of my political viewpoints? Socialism != Communism.
I agree. Advocating socialism? I would hardly say that I was, but if you thought I was, it's up to you. Once again, where did you see me bash the free market?
Stop making stuff up to try making it look worse dude
And if we're gonna keep going like this back and forth, bashing a little as we go, we might as well just stop now. I'm not gonna analyze every post in here to try to pick out every flaw I can just to keep the flamefest alive atleast.
You do know that you have to pay for insurance right? The total amount of monthly payments that Orange have payed probably dwarf the amount they received from the break-in.
In fact, in might even be a good idea for there to be 'piracy insurance' for software companies, even though on some level that would basically condone piracy. But at least the companies would be getting compensated.
For the record, I absolutely do not condone using pirated software unless there is no demo available and you want to try before you buy. I have spent money on plenty of software, and am more than happy to give my money to companies that go the extra mile and provide stellar products for a very honest price. Toontrack and Spectrasonics are probably my favorite examples of this. Hell, even apple outdid themselves by offering Logic Studio for $500 (and $150 for students!!!!).
JBroll: I will respond to your comments when i have a bit more time since it require a longer answer. I absolutely understand and respect your POV, but i have to respectfully disagree in some cases. Let's try keep this discussion civil and not have this turn into a flame war because it is a very important subject and does not deserve to get dictated by peoples emotions.
And also, the orange example was just used to illustrate a point. I have no idea how much money the lost, and am not necessarily claiming that they lost more or less money than from piracy so please don't take that example literally.
I don't think anything I've said is going any more into the 'flame war' direction than my usual (admittedly caustic) posting - Gojira, I was mainly referring to the exact line I posted. The 'dirty communist' bit was (as have been many things I've posted) sarcasm, and my response to that line sums up just about anything I'd need to say. By no stretch are you a dim-witted Marxist zombie - again, sarcasm - but that sentence is the very definition of a straw man.
Arkadin, I await your response but don't think anything I posted was uncivil or unnecessary to the response. I'm blunt and direct, but only because I hate pussy-footing around the points I'm trying to make - if you think anything I posted was truly out of line, say so, but the response I gave was worded that way solely for brevity and clarity. I addressed what looked like an argument, and if you can come up with a sound counter-argument that doesn't throw out the very foundation of modern civilization then, by all means, go for it. It just looks to me like another wimpy excuse mixed with pseudo-revolutionary nonsense. Even 'try before you buy' is unauthorized use of others' work and therefore *wrong* - the market isn't set up so that everyone can dick around as they please, it's a matter of the producers wanting to keep enough income to make a living and theft of any kind is impossible to justify as far as I can tell.
Since one of the biggest ENEMIES of the piracy in the world SONY, was OWNED with a big big big big OWNED, using the 47% of his software , PIRATE!!!! there's no reason to feel bad, or having problems with the morality...
since I read that, and watched on TV...i feel so nice, and in peace with myself...
That's trying to rationalize "I'm a thief" with "Well, they're crooks, too!" - if it wasn't for that mindset we wouldn't be facing DRM bullshit and BSA travesties...
True enough. There really is a huge amount of free applications that can almost rival the commercial ones. We're pretty lucky today considering none of this was available like ten years ago.
I'm gonna chime in cause I do be a deck swabbin piratey lad. Also, according to unconfirmed legend, I had an incident with a parrot that involved an emergency visit to a proctologist.
I think downloading and using illegal software ( and even MP3's ) is wrong any way you cut it. If you own the CD/software license, then I think you are legit as long as you're not violating the software agreement of course. Fuck the financials. It's like Broll says. It's the work/intellectual property you're essentially stealing.
If your excuse, like mine, is that you can't afford the software. Bullshit. You're just too lazy to get that second job and save the $$. I know. I speak truth, usually.
I personally feel fortunate that illegal warez allowed me to sample so many programs and find the right ones for me. However, I doubt that had I been at the mercy of my limited choice of my budget, I would have wound up with something highly inferior to my current setup that completely hindered my ability to make music and been forced to give up.
I'd also like to add that had free/shareware stuff like Wagner and Reaper been available when I began my seafaring voyage, I would have jumped on them.
The simple fact is, piracy is easy. Any asshole with a computer can google 'Waves Crack' and wind up at the right spot. Sure, you might discover along the way that some stops require a healthy antivirus program or a stout firewall but I think most people would rather dick with a few bad cracks than work at a McDonalds or a Wal-Mart and try to earn the money. People are electricity. We take the path of least resistance.
Case and point -
Fleshlight vs. dating
I'm sure that comparison somehow hammers home the truth of whatever I just said. I am coming off a migraine and I'm tired as fuck so if any of that seemed incoherent, just watch a video of a Laotian stripper shooting ping pong balls out her snatch while eating Taco Bell on horseback.
And again, fuck plumbing.
Howard Johnson is right!
The way I see the sampling business is this...
If someone expects me to plunk down three figures for software of *any* kind, they had damn well better have some kind of demo for it. If they don't, fuck them right up the ass and all the way to what would be their pre-frontal cortex... if they fucking HAD ONE.
If they don't have the foresight to at least show that the software would bloody WORK and maybe do something I find interesting, then I'm simply not going to believe that they didn't fuck up another thousand times in the actual code. I'm not going to sample it through piracy through what I think is my human right to do whatever the balls I want regardless of the consequences... in fact, I'm not going to use it *ever*.
Fuck bad software. In fact, I'm probably just going to go over (or back?) to Ardour and external hand-built gizmos that don't fucking work.