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An idea to compare our techniques

Discussion in 'F.O.H.' started by LeSedna, Apr 6, 2009.

  1. LeSedna

    LeSedna Mat or Mateo

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    NEWS

    real guitar tracks + Di tracks !

    send me a pm with the DAW you'll be using if you participate.

    CURRENTLY : SONG RECORDING

    Waiting for the song to be recorded :

    Tempo is 88 (or 176)

    - Drums : by ahjteam :

    Not quantized : (if you wanna do it yourself)

    http://drop.io/ahjdrs1 (kick and snare)
    http://drop.io/ahjdrs2 (toms and room)

    If you want the quantized version : http://drop.io/ahjdrs3

    - Guitars : by RiF,

    http://drop.io/RiFLead Lead and Charvel.
    http://drop.io/RiFGtrs2 Les Paul.
    http://drop.io/RiFGtrs3 DI (this has been my Toneport's DI-output from the guide tracks).

    - Bass : if a good bassist comes, he could help us. RiF did something good anyway :

    http://drop.io/RiFBass

    - Vocals : ??? someone needed. Some asked me to do them since I've played with my voice but I'm really not a singer aha. If nobody comes I could do them though but prey for your ears...

    A ZIP WITH ALL INCLUDED WILL BE PROPOSED


    THE INITIAL IDEA

    GOAL : A STANDARD

    The goal is to create sort of a standard that would make us the possibility to exchange our projects and open them with all the plugins used being effective, all legaly. That means we have to use a free list of plugins and a simple DAW.

    Then we are able to mix a song, and compare to each other by sending to everybody our own project that they all can open. This way, we can see really quickly the differences we have, and people can say quickly "you made a stupid thing there" or "this could be improved this way, look, I've managed to change your settings and listen how that guitars fits better in the mix".

    This process is possible without its standard, but it takes a lot more time, with the necessity to paste screenshots, or with only advices like "boost mid frequencies" which are difficult to manage well when this is exactly where we have difficulties to improve.

    RULES from ahjteam

    How about this: We try to simulate a real mixing scenario, where a band has tracked their song and is interested in you to mix it. You send them a sample first to see if they want to groove with you.

    We need a multitrack a hard rock or metal clip (if it is not black metal and it grooves, its always a plus) in 30-90 seconds of length. It can be an existing project (remember to ask permission from everyone involved) or can be done just for this exhibition purposes too. We need the multitracks with:
    - real miced drums (no sample drums because they are already processed to sound good and have no real challenge), the clip must have toms in it
    - bass (atleast DI, miced amp is a bonus)
    - atleast double tracked rhythm guitar (DI track is a plus)
    - a lead guitar or lead keyboard
    - lead vocals (backing vocals are optional)
    - any extra instruments are welcome

    DAW and plugins :
    - The DAW of preference for this exhibition is Reaper (download: http://www.reaper.fm). You can use all native plugins and the plugins it is bundled with.
    - Alternatively you can use any other DAW you want, but you are not allowed to use its native plugins
    - You can use ANY VST/AU plugin that is freely distributed by the developer.
    - You are not allowed to use commercial plugins and that includes trial&demo versions and pirated ones.
    - Tune editing is only allowed if done with free plugins, but highly discouraged
    - Drum replacement is only allowed if it is done with free plugins and the samples also must be freely distributed (sources required)

    Additional restrictions and rules:
    - This exhibition is about mixing, not mastering, so aim your RMS as close as possible to -15dB RMS or less! -15dB RMS is not too quiet, but it is not too loud either (for reference levels Metallicas 'Enter Sandman' has -15dB RMS). Free frequency analyzer plugin with RMS metering (Voxengo SPAN) is available at www.voxengo.com
    - This exhibition is still about mixing, not editing, so time editing of the clips is not allowed. You are not allowed to "hard edit"/"destructively edit" the tracks either (where the plugins are applied straight to the tracks). Silence stripping is allowed

    Results:
    - You must post an mp3 of the song (192kbps or better)
    - Take screenshot(s) of your mixer window where we can see all the plugins used (cubase example, protools example, reaper example, Sonar example. You do not need to reveal plugin settings. Take multiple pictures if all the channels cant fit your screen.
    - Project file is optional

    notes of LeSedna : Project file is interesting for those who wanna share the whole project. About revealing the plugin settings, it would take too long by screenshots so we'll do it only if needed. But that's why we are talking about sending the project files.

    A WORD ABOUT REAPER

    Keep in mind that Reaper is now on MacOS too, and it's clean to install/uninstall. It's supposed stable, and not too hard to learn, you just have to check its specificities.

    The most important speciality is that its tracks can fit both audio and midi so ALL TRACKS ARE THE SAME, EVEN "FOLDERS" (but midi won't be used for this project).

    Routing is different, the "folders" don't exist and the best is to use its matrix that you can find in the lower block of the screen, besides the Mixer tab. You can download freely its manual for 30 months and it's quick to learn. Besides that, it's a simple DAW so it took me only a few mn to find all I needed.

    About "folders", in Reaper you define a folder by a track that you put as "the folder", then all following tracks until the one you define as the last one will be included. That means they are all routed in the folder track, like a bus. Then, in the mixer, a little tip : clic on the button on the left of "MASTER", and you choose "Group folders to left". Then, the folder tracks get on the left of the mixer, and if you have a midi controller, it's great for mixing cause all main "busses" are available as first tracks. Good for final adjustments. Its the main difficulty when you try Reaper : change your mind to use the Reaper routing philosophy. Even now I don't get it all, but the more I learn it the more I save time.

    The buttons on all tracks :
    folder/routing/automation/FX/FX on or mutted/ phase/mute/solo
    record/volume/pan
    monitoring/recording mode/ VUmeter

    Any track can send/receive any track. Put the "R" (record) button to make visible the recording options (input mainly). Clic the button after the folder button to see the routing options (inputs/outputs/send/receive).

    F11 makes Reaper fullscreen (no need for settings to dualscreens).

    If you hate the basic skin (as I do), know that you can change it easily. You just have to download them on the reaper.fm site. I suggest you this one : http://stash.reaper.fm/theme/253/Easy On The Eyes 2.12 which is pleasant to the eyes, I personnaly like the "darker grid" version. It's my opinon. You just have to put the folder on the ColorThemes folder. You could also like the skins showing Reaper as an oldy stuff. That can change a lot of things, at first it seemed to me unpleasant to use, and with the right skin it just made me want to take a deeper look into it... Note that ProTools-like, Adobe Audition-like, Cubase-like etc skins do exist. That could help, why not.

    The FX adding window could be strange, it does'nt show you the FX as on your windows browser like cubase. What is useful is to create your own lists of plugins. For example you can create your list of plugs used for metal, for rock, for jazz, for mastering, etc. You can also find immeditatly a FX just filtering with the box in the lower part of the window, so that you can find it immediately without browsing the whole thing. I said that because at first I was shocked by the lack of graphical aspect, excepted from the mixer that I find pleasant.

    If you open all the mixer you will see the classic mixer : FX on the upper side, routing in the middle, the VUmeter with buttons in the lower part. You can dock/undock it (like everything else).
    Clic on FX : open the FX
    Clic on free space : add FX
    Ctrl + click : opens the FX Chains
    MAJ+ click : active/muted
    Alt + Click : remove

    PLUGINS : only a SUGGESTION

    Currently we have a list of plugins that could fit. Just keep it mind these are mostly vst because most of us who expressed our interest on this project are on PC, but anybody on mac could come and use those who are VST/AU compatible. Some said that they are interested even if they couldn't be compatible with our "standard". Still by ahjteam.

    These are a SUGGESTION LIST and if you discover and use another freeby, feel free to do it and say it and say what it is.

    "MAC" does say a mac version of most plugins exist.

    Plugin packs:
    - Digitalphishphones: http://www.digitalfishphones.com/mai...em=2&subItem=1 MAC
    - Kjaerhus Classic series: http://www.kjaerhusaudio.com/classic-series.php
    - GVST: http://www.gvst.co.uk/downloads.htm
    - Tin Brooke Tales: http://hem.bredband.net/tbtaudio/
    - Betabugs audio: http://www.betabugsaudio.com/plugs.php MAC (for some)
    - MDA: http://mda.smartelectronix.com/
    - Togu Audio Line: http://kunz.corrupt.ch/ MAC
    - Bootsy: http://varietyofsound.wordpress.com/

    - http://www.meldaproduction.com/freevstplugins/ ADDED BY skeksis268

    Guitar emulation:
    - Guitar Suite: http://www.simulanalog.org/guitarsuite.htm
    - Nick Crow Wagner: http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=223322
    - Lepou Solo C: http://lepouplugins.blogspot.com/
    - Voxengo Boogex: http://www.voxengo.com/product/boogex/
    - Fretted Synth Audio Freeamp3: http://frettedsynth.home.att.net/
    - Aradaz Amps: http://aradaz.blogspot.com

    Limiter:
    - Buzzroom Buzmaxi3: http://www.x-buz.com/BuzMaxi3.html
    - George Yohng W1: http://www.yohng.com/w1limit.html MAC
    - YouWaShock!: http://youwashockvst.googlepages.com/

    EQ:
    - Electri-Q (posihfopit edition) http://www.aixcoustic.com/index.php/..._edition/30/0/ (has up to 64 bands)

    Reverb & Delay:
    - SIR1: http://www.knufinke.de/sir/sir1.html
    - Freeverb3: http://freeverb3.sourceforge.net/

    Sidechain:
    - Slim Show Slider: http://www.geocities.jp/webmaster_of_sss/vst/ MAC (mostly)
    - SidekickV3: go find it yourself, V4 is not free anymore

    Drum replacement:
    - Majken Grizzly: http://www.majken.se/index.php?optio...id=3&Itemid=25

    =================================

    oh yeah and some more plugins:

    Cockos ReaPlugs (win): http://www.reaper.fm/reaplugs/
    Christian Budde's plugins (win): http://www.savioursofsoul.de/Christian/
    ePhonic plugins (win): http://www.e-phonic.com/plugins/ (I highly recommend the LOFI plugin btw)
    Audio Damage plugins (win + mac): http://www.audiodamage.com/downloads/ MAC
    Studio Devil BVC (win + mac): http://www.studiodevil.com/download/downloadBVC.htm MAC (the only free ampsim for mac that I know of)
    Acusticaudio Nebula 3 Free (win): http://www.acusticaudio.net/modules....le=nebula3free

    and if those aren't enough, see the free plugins listed at KVR audio:

    http://tinyurl.com/freeplugins

    WHEN ALL WILL BE PREPARED WE WILL START A NEW THREAD

    If a lot of people is interested and post we'll ask you not to pollute it too much, and have a special care to write our posts the most easy-reading possible, editing rather than posting a new answer etc because with all that people it will be messy !

    I'll post an example of how the mix will be sent, so that it doesn't get messy and nobody forgets to tell what he does, used etc.

    LIST OF PEOPLE WITH THE DAW USED

    REAPER :
    - LeSedna

    Special thanks to RiF and ahjteam

    What is cool is that : "imagine this: A guy from france had an idea, some people from around the world (Finland, Ireland, the Netherlands, Germany...) talked about it and two days later I am sitting here and guess what? I am mixing drum tracks from Finland which have been recorded some hours ago with my guitars from Germany." (RiF) :)
     
  2. KeithReyn

    KeithReyn Members Only Member

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    I think the idea is cool!
    The only prob i see is having everyone work with the exact same DAW. I doubt anyone wants to spend time learning a whole new prog for this. The plugin idea is cool too, but you'd have to make sure the plugs are for both PC and MAC, as alot of people use Macs here.
    Good idea, man.
     
  3. LeSedna

    LeSedna Mat or Mateo

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    Yeah of course that's the main true problem. I would rather wait what other people think of it, and what DAWs they use.

    For my part I can use SX3 and Reaper.

    Reaper would be the good idea cause it's free to test (no limitation), light (3mB) and works on Mac too. And it's simple to erase a clean way. It's a bit strange at first but the basic things are quick to find.

    I just forgot the fact we would also have to find free compatible plugins for both platforms.
     
  4. Fox Mulder

    Fox Mulder The Truth Is Out There

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    Not a bad idea, but I think most people here (including me) has too much work up their sleeves to actually give time for such "group-work".
    Anyway, people who have the time may go ahead with it. I'll come by and see what I can read and learn.:)

    Cheers!
     
  5. IanBTS

    IanBTS Member

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    Sonar 7, anyone?
     
  6. RiF

    RiF Member

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    Although I'm on Pro Tools and Sonar 8 Studio, I think that Reaper is the best choice for this idea. The other thing is, that I am used to some non-free plugins that I purchased and I cannot mix/live without them... I like the idea, though but I might not like the tracks (I understood, that the tracks are recorded by someone and we are supposed to mix them), so I might not be motivated to participate.
     
  7. ahjteam

    ahjteam Anssi Tenhunen

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    I don't think that the DAW is that big of an issue because its more of a workflow question, those who have used the DAW in question for 3-10 years have a huge advantage on them compared to others who have never even seen the program. But all the plugins should be common. Preferrably a VST based system and only free plugins, no native ones (except if they are available freely like some of the reaper plugins)?

    edit: And how about two categories? PC and MAC?
     
  8. LeSedna

    LeSedna Mat or Mateo

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    Well yeah of course we are all used to something, but it's sort of an experiment. It's true we are used to some specific plugins but the deal is here to mix with a common tool, and in the end there will inevitably have fundamental differences between us that could be interesting to discuss. Here it's not about absolutely making it fucking perfect, cause we just couldn't. Maybe the old users of the DAW will have a best chance but as the plugins are the same, and that the deal is mainly to mix, I don't think the experiment is useless. I mean, anyway it will be about panning, eqing, compressing, etc. I think it's a good idea at least to try to see what we can manage to learn.
     
  9. ahjteam

    ahjteam Anssi Tenhunen

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    Okay, here are my suggestions for the PC vst system, you are free to fill in:

    Plugin packs:
    - Digitalphishphones: http://www.digitalfishphones.com/main.php?item=2&subItem=1
    - Kjaerhus Classic series: http://www.kjaerhusaudio.com/classic-series.php
    - GVST: http://www.gvst.co.uk/downloads.htm
    - Tin Brooke Tales: http://hem.bredband.net/tbtaudio/
    - Betabugs audio: http://www.betabugsaudio.com/plugs.php
    - MDA: http://mda.smartelectronix.com/
    - Togu Audio Line: http://kunz.corrupt.ch/
    - Bootsy: http://rekkerd.org/bootsy-releases-rescue-vst/

    Guitar emulation:
    - Guitar Suite: http://www.simulanalog.org/guitarsuite.htm
    - Nick Crow Wagner: http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=223322
    - Lepou Solo C: http://lepouplugins.blogspot.com/
    - Voxengo Boogex: http://www.voxengo.com/product/boogex/
    - Fretted Synth Audio Freeamp3: http://frettedsynth.home.att.net/
    - Aradaz Amps: http://aradaz.blogspot.com

    Limiter:
    - Buzzroom Buzmaxi3: http://www.x-buz.com/BuzMaxi3.html
    - George Yohng W1: http://www.yohng.com/w1limit.html
    - YouWaShock!: http://youwashockvst.googlepages.com/

    EQ:
    - Electri-Q (posihfopit edition) http://www.aixcoustic.com/index.php/posihfopit_edition/30/0/ (has up to 64 bands)

    Reverb & Delay:
    - SIR1: http://www.knufinke.de/sir/sir2.html
    - Freeverb3: http://freeverb3.sourceforge.net/

    Sidechain:
    - Slim Show Slider: http://www.geocities.jp/webmaster_of_sss/vst/
    - SidekickV3: go find it yourself, V4 is not free anymore :(

    Drum replacement:
    - Majken Grizzly: http://www.majken.se/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=6&catid=3&Itemid=25
     
  10. LeSedna

    LeSedna Mat or Mateo

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    Wow nice contribution. I would add the Stillwell plugins because some of them are really impressive and they are free to test a long time :

    Plugin Packs :
    - Stillwell : http://www.stillwellaudio.com/?page_id=28

    And, my suggestion would also go to Reaper as mentionned, it's practical to install, and not so hard to use, I've used it for the first full test project and it's somewhat more pleasant that I thought. The big difference is the routing matrice to group tracks, but it's easy.
     
  11. ahjteam

    ahjteam Anssi Tenhunen

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    trial does not equal free.
     
  12. LeSedna

    LeSedna Mat or Mateo

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    Well I didn't know if that was a problem for such a project. If you think it is then we won't add it to the list.
     
  13. beyond dead

    beyond dead heavy metal dad \m/

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    just upload some wavs and have everyone use their daw of choice and their plugs of choice.
     
  14. LeSedna

    LeSedna Mat or Mateo

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    If we do so, that would be as any other try out, whereas if we do with the same DAW and list of plugs, we can send to each other our mixes so we can really understand what we can improve without the need of hours of explanation, that's the idea here.
     
  15. Moonlight_Seeker

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    Well imho who cares about the DAW? Does it really change the sound?
     
  16. DominikJW

    DominikJW aka utarefson

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    I've been thinking of similar idea some time ago. I'm in! Maybe my mixing skills are not the greatest but what the hell, what's wrong with trying! ;)

    @up: the main idea is that we post the whole projects with folders etc. so that anyone could download it, open and check what exact processing was done. Not everyone has ProTools HD 9 or Cubendo 6, but everyone can download 3MB of Reapershit.
     
  17. mick thompson

    mick thompson AKA: Ross Canpolat! SM!

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    yea its a sweet idea - it would give a lot of us more of an idea on how to produce a professional mix. after all were all here to exchange ideas, mixes & knowledge and what better way to share it then work on a project such as this one!
     
  18. RiF

    RiF Member

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    But who will provide/record the tracks to mix?
     
  19. RiF

    RiF Member

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    To be open for everyone regardless of the platform ("regardless" like in "PC or Mac"), I would say that every free (not demo!) plugin is permitted to use as long as it is available for both PC and Mac. We can make a list, but if somebody finds one that's not on the list and still meets this criteria, so be it.
    Did I give my +1 for Reaper (not using it, but sounds as the most obvious choice by far)? Needless to say, that all impulses that get used for reverb or cabinets or whatever have to be freely available, too (or selfmade, but must be made freely available, too).
    If this sounds as if this is too big of a restriction, I think it's not, because now the mixing skills are really what counts! And it would show, that even with free stuff, it is possible to do something reasonable (hopefully...). And if this project produces something interesting, everybody can take a look at it and learn (or moan or whatever), because everything is free.
     
  20. LeSedna

    LeSedna Mat or Mateo

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    That's the question. We could propose a cover, and someone who has experience in recording guitars would play it, and a bassist would do the same.
     

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