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Bath / LYBM liner notes puzzle: The current state of the game

Discussion in 'Kayo Dot' started by delamarche, Sep 4, 2013.

  1. delamarche

    delamarche Member

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    Since the bulk of the progress on this has been made in fits in spurts in the 2003 Kayo Dot interview thread, I thought it would be good to gather everything here. Let's try to keep the current state of the puzzle's solution here, shall we?

    The Beginning
    First things first: the lyrics to the Secret Song are the most direct instructions we seem to have about solving the puzzle.

    The Greek Stuff

    Oraios, Topio, Petra, Ypnos are Greek words. It is believed that they correspond to 4 specific songs throughout the two albums.

    It's not too much of a stretch to presume:

    • Oraios = They Aren't All Beautifull
    • Topio = Geography
    • Petra = Stones of October's Sobbing
    • Ypnos = Sleep is a Curse

    "I saw the branches of a tree falling on these planets"
    This line is super ambiguous and could mean a variety of things. However, the reference is to the Kabbalah Tree of Life, which you should probably go read about if you want to work on this thing.

    Anyhow, notice that Binah, Geburah, Hod, and Yesod are all "branches" of the tree. (If you're a programming nerd like me this terminology might annoy you a bit, but you'll get over it. You can think of them as "vertices" if you like. They are also called "sephira", I believe.)

    Now:

    Ignore the comment about the importance of Birth Pangs for now -- this does, however, give us an ordering to work with.

    • Oraios => Binah => Saturn => They Aren't All Beautifull
    • Topio => Geburah => Mars => Geography
    • Petra => Hod => Mercury => Stones of October's Sobbing
    • Ypnos => Yesod => Luna => Sleep is a Curse

    Awesome! I hope you like how consistent and easy this mapping is, because things are about to get way shittier.

    I read into these four songs / The numbers of the lines

    So now, if you flip through the Bath and LYBM booklets, you will find these weird sigils that are written overtop lines of Hebrew.

    The Hebrew in the bottom line always corresponds to the name of one of the sephira from above. They also appear in the order from above also, starting with Bath and moving to LYBM.

    The top line consists of columns of Hebrew words, but note that Hebrew words can also be interpreted as numbers. Hebrew is also read left-to-right. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_numerals for a primer.

    As for the sigils... we'll discuss those later, as it's still a fairly wide-open question as to what we should be using those for.

    First diagram in Bath:
    [​IMG]

    The Hebrew in the bottom line corresponds to Binah ("Understanding").

    The top line columns, when read right-to-left and interpreted as numbers are:

    • 4 + 10 = 14
    • 8 + 10 = 18
    • 6 + 10 = 16
    • 4
    • 3


    Second diagram in Bath

    [​IMG]

    The Hebrew in the bottom line corresponds to Geburah ("Power").

    The top line columns, when read right-to-left and interpreted as numbers are:

    • 6 + 10 = 16
    • 2
    • 8
    • 1 + 10 = 11

      First diagram in LYBM
      [​IMG]

      The Hebrew in the bottom line corresponds to Hod ("Majesty/Praise").

      This is where things get ugly. We're sort of hoping that all these columns correspond directly to line numbers (more on that later), but one of these columns makes no sense at all, and another is 400.
      • 1 + 10 = 11
      • 400
      • 8
      • 20?? 4??


      Second diagram in LYBM

      [​IMG]

      This one doesn't have its own page. Is this another clue, or did Toby just run out of space? :)

      The Hebrew in the bottom line corresponds to Yesod ("foundation").

      The top line columns, when read right-to-left and interpreted as numbers are:
      • 8 + 10 = 18
      • 6
      • 8
      • 5 + 10 = 15
      • 1

      So what do we do with all this?

      The First Breakthrough
      The method?

      The Great Unknown

      OK, that was the fun part.

      So now the question is, where the hell do we go from here? Toby has already indicated that those sigils are pretty important to the solution.

      My first stab at this was to try to inscribe the sigils directly onto the tree of life itself. I had no idea what the purpose of this was, it was just the first thing I thought to try.

      Here was my reasoning:

      I found a way to make the latter two sigils fit, but it didn't feel right. Despite all this, xfer said:

      I dunno why. I suspect maybe he's easily impressed, because this doesn't seem like at all the correct direction to be going in. :)

      Braxil had a wayyyyyyyyyyy better idea:


      If you want an example closer to our source material, consider the Binah inscription:

      [​IMG]

      It's less obvious to know where to start the other ones, since the squares are a lot larger and those sigils could conceivably be inscribed in multiple places. I haven't even tried to look into that yet, I wanted to get all this written up first. But I really do think this is the right way to go, I've been reading Agrippa's "Of Occult Philosophy" book 2 and there's a lot of detail on this sort of thing there.

      I actually had a bunch of ideas as to what these sequences could be used for. Braxis said:

      So, basically the same idea we originally had with the hebrew "line numbers" above. However, Toby already sort of praised YaYo for using those older numbers as the line indices, so I'm willing to bet that YaYo at least had started this off properly.

      I can only think that means that these sigils and the sequences of numbers they form represent some sort of transformation of the lines from the poem. The frustrating thing is that there's so little correlation between them. e.g. the sigil for Geburah has 5 inflection points, but there are only 4 words in the line we created using YaYo's method.

      The sigil for Hod also has 5 inflection points, but there are ostensibly only 4 words / sets of indices in the Hod line numbers (even though we still don't know what they mean.)

      Actually, come to think of it, all the sigils have 5 inflection points in them...

      Other random stuff

      Birth Pains of Astral Projection
      This song seems rather pivotal to the puzzle. My working theory is that you were intended to use Birth Pangs as your "guide" to solving the puzzle if you didn't have access to the secret song. However, I can't see how you ever would have gone anywhere with this, because there's no correspondence at all to the greek words, which you need to get the connection to the actual songs we believe we're supposed to be extracting words from.

      But to quote the relevant passage

      where the celestials are given italics in the text. This would at least get you the correct ordering of things, but I have no fucking clue how you'd make the connections to actual songs without those greek words.

      Interesting tidbit: there is only one other word in the lyrics for this song that is italicized, and that is Amelia

      Clue, or just misdirection? I have no idea.

      Everything in Hebrew is also a number
      We could conceivably get any of the words we're working with and see if we can find meaning in their numbers, and vice-versa.

      The Dope talked about some of this in his posting back and forth with YaYo:

      As another example of this, the "4 2 <-> 2 4" snafu in the Hod columns elicited a comment from my translator friend that the number 24 is also the word for "jug". Could this indicate e.g. an expansion into Girl with a Watering Can, for example?

      The Squiggle-thing in the Bottom Left Corner of the Binah sigil
      If you look up sigils drawn on magic squares, you'll find a lot of cases where they draw a little M-shaped "double bump" at a vertex, rather than just leaving a corner there. I have no idea what that means yet -- I saw a couple of examples where it seems to change the expected numbers (maybe it means it is being visited twice or something?) but there was no explanation of why at all -- maybe that's why they call it magick.

      If you look at the bottom-left corner of the Binah sigil, it appears to have one of these little thingies there. Does it mean something, or is it just stylistic?

      Why do pretty much all the songs have line numbers?
      Besides Birth Pains (which is theoretically intended to be a "key" to the rest of the puzzle), all of the other songs have line numbers on them. Are we intended to use words from every song, or was that misdirection?

      Does The Ferryman have any importance?
      There are two things that make the Ferryman interesting:
      • The line numbers are all fucked up because (I think) they're excerpts from Virgil or something (I think)
      • There's an exchange between two Greek names or something in that section.

      The large line numbers wouldn't be super interesting to me, except that the Hod sigil has at least one curiously large number in it. A line number of 400 doesn't really index into any of those paragraphs though.

      The Greek part is interesting because Greek was used as part of the correlation in the Secret Song, whereas the rest of the puzzle has dealt in Hebrew. Is there a further connection to be made here?

      Whew.

      That seems like a good start to me. If you're new to the puzzle, reading everything above should get you more or less up to speed with where (I think) forum people here have taken things so far. Now it's up to you to go farther with it!

      And if you have done personal work on this puzzle that you've never shared, please post it here! Even if you think it's totally stupid, it may lead someone else in the right direction!
     
  2. ezekiel

    ezekiel sanzen

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    excellent, excellent write up; this is much appreciated. sorry to nitpick, but the first time you mention Hebrew and you want to say it is read "right to left" you wrote "left to right".

    some thoughts I have:
    the 4th diagram with the curved line really poses a problem. For one, it doesn't have sharp edges so how will you interpret which numbers the inflection points correlate to? also, that magic square in particular is so large, where will it go? I have to check the booklets, but sleep is a curse is a shorter song so it may be hard to find a spot on the square where only low numbers will fit to correlate to line numbers in that song.

    do those Hebrew numbers under the sigils translate into words at all?

    I can't help but think "the blue ghost/shedding qliphoth" has some sort of clue. I thought there could be some sort of connection with the tree of life / tree of death but I can't think of anything in particular. then I read this line from http://omega-magick.blogspot.com/2012/06/qliphoth.html#.UiiRAqPD-kw "Eliphas Levi talks about in his books: he said "the Qliphoth" represent the world bark, peelings or empty shells, psychic residue, which grow alongside Sephiroth." So "shedding" the qliphoth (or bark) to get to the tree of life? I dunno, seems kinda flimsy but maybe there is something there but I also find it interesting that this is the only other instrumental song.

    don't know how much that will help but hopefully that will get you guys thinking on some other possibilities.
     
  3. ezekiel

    ezekiel sanzen

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    also I think the Hebrew numbers are being mistranslated. using that website you linked, this is what I get for Binah:
    14
    18
    17 (I'm having trouble with this one. that symbol looks like 7 but could also be 200 but it DEFINETELY can't be 16. Read that website under key exceptions: By convention, the numbers 15 and 16 are represented as &#8235;&#1496;&#1524;&#1493;&#8236; (9 + 6) and &#8235;&#1496;&#1524;&#1494;&#8236; (9 + 7), respectively. This is done in order to refrain from using the two-letter combinations &#1497;&#8211;&#1492; *(10 + 5)&#8236; and &#1497;&#8211;&#1493; *(10 + 6)&#8236; (which are alternate written forms for the Name of God) in everyday writing.)
    3
    4

    I think there may be a couple numbers wrong in the other ones but again I'm no expert and am just going by that website so I'm having trouble matching them up. for example, the 400 looks like it could be 40 to me. but again, wherever you have a 15 or a 16 is most likely wrong.
     
  4. Braxil

    Braxil Member

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    The squiggles in a corner mean to count the number multiple times, two bumps = count it twice. Sorry for omitting this.
     
  5. Braxil

    Braxil Member

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    Oh, and regarding the Greek words. I think it was meant to be a clue to use Greek and not Hebrew Gematria for part of the puzzle, but I never really got anywhere with that. That was the only explanation I could come up with.
     
  6. ezekiel

    ezekiel sanzen

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    Ok so after doing some more research on sigils and magick squares, I'm pretty sure the 4 symbols in the booklets should represent a word, not the lines of the songs (I think yayo was correct in assuming the Hebrew numbers are the lines). that's exactly what sigils are - first you translate a word into its numerical value and then you trace those numbers out on the square. (explained here http://www.helenerudolph.com/articles/sigils)

    I just can't make any sense of it though. Taking delamarche's example of the Saturn sigil, I get:
    5 9 8 8 5 1
    E I H H E A
    N RQ Q N J
    W _Z Z W S

    I can't make a word out of that. Even if I shift the sigil over to numbers 7,2,1,1,7,6 I still can't make anything coherent. Any thoughts on this or am I way off? I figure if that is the key then it should be pretty simple to fit the other sigils on the squares since you are limited to numbers 1-9.

    As for the curved lines of the 4th sigil, I guess that is pretty common. check this out for reference http://www.thebabylonmatrix.com/index.php?title=911:Magic_Squares_and_Sigils
     
  7. delamarche

    delamarche Member

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    I thought about this once somewhere, but never quite nailed the phrase like you did.

    Would someone *ahem* like to comment on this possibility?
     
  8. Schnittke

    Schnittke boink

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    I did listen to it but I don't have enough time to try and solve this
     
  9. delamarche

    delamarche Member

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    Does this interview exist in digital somewhere??? I've never heard of this.
     
  10. inkybmistro

    inkybmistro self-surgeon

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  11. delamarche

    delamarche Member

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  12. delamarche

    delamarche Member

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    Haha cool so we got kind of a shout-out, I guess. I don't really find this offputting at all, it rather sounds like we're on the right track. I also like that Toby is forwarding this thread onto his cronies and chortling into his sleeve at our useless gyrations. (At least, that's what I imagine he is doing.)
     
  13. delamarche

    delamarche Member

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    OK, so Amelia was apparently a pet ghost from highschool or whatever. I guess she probably doesn't have much to do with the puzzle.
     
  14. Braxil

    Braxil Member

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    So I guess my magic square stuff was right. If only I could figure out the starting position for the bigger squares, this would be solved.
     
  15. Cussery91

    Cussery91 New Metal Member

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    Could it be that the last two sigils numbers need to be reversed? Tree of Life and Death are mentioned often, and the two albums favor duality and symmetry (equal amount of songs on the original albums, album art of one represents the other) and I believe the two trees are supposed to be mirror images of each other. Perhaps this means the numbers must be read backwards or interpreted backwards (could help with the Hod issue?)

    I dunno, just throwing out some ideas. Nobody has posted here in a year and a half so....
     

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