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CD's to become obsolete!? now way....

Discussion in 'Katagory V' started by Dustin, Jan 17, 2007.

?

Where do you stand with Cd format and MP3's?

  1. I'm a cave man - I have and listen to CD's only

    3 vote(s)
    18.8%
  2. I'm Bi - I go both ways! Buys and lsiten to CD's and MP3's

    13 vote(s)
    81.3%
  3. I only go with MP3's - less clutter and twice the music!

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. Dustin

    Dustin C-C-Cool Beans!!!

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    This is actually a cross post I had from another forum I post at, but decided to bring the topic over here to see if anygone else agrees or disagrees. Kind of my personal observation on the matter, along with a little poll. :p

    I have read several articles from fellow musicians out there who are claiming that CD's are going to become obsolete, due to the high demand of MP3 players and other portable media. Some of these musicians, including Rob Halford, are only releasing their new albums on downloadable MP3 format, and no other format but that.

    It's funny, but when 8-track and vinyl went the way of the dodo in favor of cassettes, it seemed to be step up in quality and convince. (well... Aside form vinyl, which has something that no other format has, but that is a different article all together) Then, when cassettes gave way to Compact Discs, it was yet another step up in quality and technology as well as convenience. The true inconvenience, was having to buy a new format to replace the old one. They were not backwards compatible with each other. And some albums were not released on the new format, (out of print)

    However, with the MP3 generation, there seems to be something that is lacking. Sure it is yet another step up in many ways, and as an iPod owner, I can attest to this. However, I still buy the original CD's. Why? I guess it's human nature to hold the actual purchased product in my hands, to dive into the liner notes of the booklet, admire the cover art, and enjoy the physical satisfaction that would be lacking in an MP3 alone.

    I like to compare the CD vs. MP3 scenario to the scene from the movie Demolition Man when Sandra Bullocks Character asks Stallone to engage in sexual activity. Stallone, the barbaric old-timer, thinks "Hell yeah!", but gets stuck with a brain-wave stimulator that only allows him to *think* he is having physical sexual contact. Sure he gets the satisfaction of the real thing, but the actual emotional and physical contact isn't there. He of course is dumbfounded at the fact that she's content with no contact as she continues to talk him into wearing the infernal contraption. He of course gets embarrassingly rejected when trying to persuade her into the actual act. Touché' good man.

    Think of CD's as Stallone and MP3's as Bullock. Some people in this generation, don't require the satisfaction of owning a physical copy of an album, they are perfectly content with just the experience of hearing the music. They don't care about the artwork, the lyrics, the thank you list, the story behind the album, ect. They just want the few album cuts to appease their appetite at the moment. Others, like myself, even as an MP3 player owner, still need to have a hard copy, the real thing, even if I don't pull it out of the case and spin the disc physically, I still have it to use as reference to who the bands members are, what the lyrics are without looking it up on the internet, the album artwork, the whole she-bang. But above all, I have a back up when things go awry, and believe me, in the digital world they will awry, oh they will.

    What this boils down to in my personal opinion, is that those out there that are the "Lanina Huxley's" of buying music, tend to see music as a disposable commodity. They could do without it, but will take what they can, when it's convenient, cheap, or even free. That is hard to do with Cd's. That is, if your lazy and not much of a barging shopper. If thes people had to buy it, they would probably cherish it even more because they had to spend money on it. When you went to public school, you didn't care if you missed a few day, or failed in a few areas, as long as you eventually graduated (hopefully). However, if you went to collage and paid for your education yourself, you know damn well you'd get your moneys worth out of your education, or it would have all been a waste! Remember how back in the days of vinyl or even cassettes and CD's, that when you bought a copy of an album for yourself, it was like winning an award? You had obtained the holy grail? There was this strong sense of achievement, accomplishment and satisfaction. You really don't get that with MP3's only. You get Chinese food.

    Outside of the amazing technology behind MP3's and the convenience the format offers, let's look at the downside to it. Keep in mind, I am an MP3 player owner too.

    First, let's not forget all the work that goes into the actual product of making an album on CD. Outside of the band, you have graphics designers, cover artist, photographers, pressing plants, printers, management, lawyers, song writing credits/ASCAP & BMI, hell even advertising (i.e. other albums available by this artist as well as others...). When you look at the big picture, if we were to go directly to a digital-only format right now, a lot of people would be out of work. But again, none of this really matters to the mass majority of people who prefer downloading MP3's, even if they buy them. They just want to hear the music. They don't care who does what to give them the music, to them, music should be free anyway. Ah, in a prefect world, that might be the case, but it's not reality.

    But the best part, (and my favorite argument), is what happens if you downloaded a vast amount of MP3's to your 200GB hard drive, and it takes a dump and you lose it all. You have to start all over again. If you were smart and backed up your library onto DVD-R, congratulations! However, If even the slightest scratch or scuff passes the defining layer of you DVD-R (dropped it, stuffed it in a cloth carry case several times, used CD stomper to label it and it warped due to moisture/heat) it then becomes a coaster. Goodbye investment! It's good to back it up, but it won't replace a replicated CD. I'd hate to think someone purchased their 10,000 MP3's and that happened, that's a lot of money to throw away due to a power surge or viral hard drive crash. You'd have nothing to show for it. Of course if it was all illegal downloads or hijacked off someone else's library, then you only lost your personal time. However, the musician and all that's involved lost a whole lot more.

    I know people who have lost a lot of music and money due to technical difficulties. And some who knock on my door asking to replenish their library by using mine, why? Because I have the actual hard copies, the real deal. They feel that by doing this, they don't have to re-buy them or re-download their MP3's again. No matter how many crashes, explosions or wipe outs my hard drive, computer or MP3 player have, I'll always have the hard copy of the actual albums to turn to. If they bought the actual album, they wouldn't have to do this, and if they did, it would only be to save them time from having to transfer the hard copy back to their library. No harm done there.

    I'm not going to preach about illegal downloading, and all that rehashed crap. Okay... Maybe I will. It seems that is always a dead end argument, But alas, it must be said as it does have a lot to do with the demand of going strictly digital. 65% of the population could care less who it affects... That's a lot of people. Anyhow, my drawn out point is this: no matter how you debate it, going to an all digital format will take away the soul, hard work and the satisfaction of having a hard copy of something that you can actually own and do what ever you want with. Burn it, convert it, and back it up. It's yours. Wow, you even have something that can be autographed, have sentimental value, and possibly have a high resale value in the future.

    I've had people ask me to actually burn/copy them OUR bands album. When I ask them to just buy it, hell I'd even cut them a deal, they would scoff at the idea and go, "well, I guess I could find it on a torrent site and check it out..." as a musician who works hard, that's a pretty big slap in the face. We're not worth paying for? Then why are we even making music for people like you? Wait, I forgot, music is a disposable commodity. For most major label artist, this wouldn't have much of an impact in the whole scheme of things, they have a budget and labels with deep pockets that won't be tarnished by those few with no conscious, however, minor label or independent artist and labels really feel the pinch from it.

    If everyone in the world had this mindset of doing away with hard copy formats, being digital only, and not paying a dime because music should be free (i.e. again, Disposable commodity), Who out there could afford to financially CREATE the music for free at that point? Who would want to, knowing that what you create and put all your emotions into, could be tossed out with the trash or the next fad? Pretty dismal outlook if you ask me, how did that ol' song go... "...The day that music died?"

    It's like most Americans and other people out there who go out to eat at McDonalds or other fast food joints. Most of us are just ignorant by nature and by the way we have been brought up in society today, we have NO IDEA where our food comes from, or what it takes to bring it to us hot, fresh and fast. We just eat it and go on our marry way. If we didn't have to pay for our food, and expected to eat three meals a day from these places, would these fast food joints still be in business? Why would they even exists? How could they? We would drain our resources, and eventually starve to death. Food is defiantly not a disposable commodity, at least not for most people, so why would we treat music the same way? Because we don't need it to live. Kind of a sad thing really. But I would go crazy without it, I feel I need music to live. Not everyone else does. If music was like food and was a resource, and was free, it would eventually be depleted due to our own ignorance and arrogance.

    For those that are okay with being all-digital, and could care less about their being a physical media source, that feel music is a disposable commodity and should be free just like listening to the radio.... You have obviously taken it all for granted, taken the first step to destroying what some of us love, and would make an ideal government icon for a socialist/communist movement.

    For me? I'll just cling to buying CD's and support my brethren to the bitter end. Enjoy my music and all that comes with it, transfer it to my hard drive & MP3 player with no worries at all, and await my time as being the caveman of music, and become extinct myself, if I'm not already. I guess I find it odd that people are not interested in having an actual product, something to show for their money and investment, kind of like those who go out to eat, buy groceries, and other things on their credit cards... They'll have nothing to show for it when they are in debt. (i.e when their hard drive/MP3 player takes a dump on them).

    Food for thought? Maybe, or is it a disposable commodity as well? I guess we'll all find out soon enough.
     
  2. Orfanos

    Orfanos Member

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    I voted the second choice, but I like to get as many original CDs as I can. I have a lot of mp3s, but they are songs/albums that it's almost impossible to find original or some of them that I don't think them essential.

    Downloading is good to check out a band that you don't know, but always I want to buy the original product if I like it. Especially if the albums come from minor bands from underground, who need the support of the listeners. When I buy the original CD, I usually delete the mp3 files because I don't have big capacity in my hard drive. :D

    I think that the most of the metal fans has the same thoughts with me about this and support the artists they love. As Dustin says, it's not fair for the men who work hard to produce a CD, to steal (actually is this, if you think honestly) the music with such an easy way.
     
  3. J-Dubya 777

    J-Dubya 777 It NEVER ends

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    I voted for cd & mp3s. There are SO many bands in the "metal" genre that I won't risk my 15-20 bucks on. In those instances, I'll dl some/all of the cd, and if I like it, I buy it (on cd) . USUALLY a track or 2 from a website or a myspace page doesn't do it for me. You have NO idea how many bands I've found out about due to MP3s, (Freak Kitchen is my #1 example), and how much lame stuff I've deleted, and been happy I DIDN'T spend my money on.
    My thoughts are pretty close to Dustin's, I WANT hard copy. I WANT a physical cd. I also would rather purchase a SHN'ed or FLAC'ed .wav file over an MP3 any day of the week, I don't care how high the sample rate is. I'm also the same way with software. I don't want to buy a download, or reload from a recovery partition, I want PHYSICAL media. I have a lot of friends who are busting their asses to make a living in the music biz, some are doing well, and others are still struggling.
    Solely downloading MP3s, and never purchasing anything is like walking into their home, and eating all their food & drinking all their beer!

    It IS a "disposable" society, and if I can't take my cds & vinyl with me, they better at least bury it with me! :heh:

    J-Dubya
     
  4. RedinTheSky

    RedinTheSky Member

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    :worship: Excellent fucking post man. I see the main problem as the record companies not 'risking losses' of putting albums that haven't sold over 500k copies yet in stores. They stuck with that for a while and now we have this because what're you gonna do ? Pay for your music now and wait at least 2-3 days for it to get to your house ? Hell no.
     
  5. MEGALOUD

    MEGALOUD The Nightmare Has Begun..

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    Both have their place, without question in todays market, but Nightmare has all our bands available at all the usual places, itunes, rhapsody, emusic, aolmusic, and about 40 other cool digital download sites, and simply put....sales suck in comparison to the physical sales, in Metal the folks are still preferring the QUALITY of having a disc in their hands, the sonic fidelity, not having the music super compressed/ squashed, and having much louder/hotter volumes, leaves more dynamics in the greatly dynamic music that we are putting out.
    That in addition to the fact that you have some ownership, for metal collectors, this will never be even a choice, they will always want to have something by the artist that could be signed, or a piece of their creative vision....I think it will most certainly build up steam on the digital front
    and I think that it will enable the bands a broader listership and possible crossover fans from bored, tired corporate mega label's cookie cutter crap their selling the masses lol. Sorry needed to get that out I guess,
    Rage on Metal Bro's!
     
  6. Tarkus

    Tarkus I love run on sentences

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    I read about a quarter of the way through your post and got distracted by something shiny.

    Me? I like cds simply because they are a tangible representation of the music I'm listening to. On the other hand, since I'm an intrisically lazy ass, I wish every album I want was on itunes.

    I guess you can put me in the either/or catagoey. I just like to consume music in all formats.
     
  7. Dustin

    Dustin C-C-Cool Beans!!!

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    Couldn't have said it better myself! :kickass:


    Exactlly!!! You pegged it right on the head!

    this is why NIghtmare Rec. is so kick ass... No problem Lance my man, you know we love you! :worship:
     
  8. JazzMX5

    JazzMX5 Member

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    I voted for the first choice, although it's not strictly accurate. Last year I finally joined the modern world and got an iPod, in addition to a sorely-needed new PC with a suitably mammoth hard drive. Now, the only time I'll listen to CDs, really, is burned CDs in my car (it's a convertible so it's a higher risk of having them stolen from it, hence the burned copies and not expensive-or-impossible-to-replace originals).

    But I'll only buy the CD - if, indeed, the option is there (unlike, as Dustin mentioned, with Halford). I like that physical item in my hand, the sense of ownership and the freedom to do whatever the hell I want with it. I'm also... well, was also something of a collector. I recently found out saxophonist Dick Heckstall-Smith of the legendary fusion band Colosseum died in 2004, and immediately went and pulled out my CD original of 'The Time Machine' that Dick and the band had kindly signed for me when I saw them back in about '98 or '99. As I held it and looked at that signature, I remembered the conversation I had with this enormously talented, extremely gracious man, and the incredible sight of seeing him play live, with his signature two-saxes-simultaneously thing.

    I couldn't have done that with a few computer files. I may now listen to that album from the MP3s, but they came from that CD.

    Of course, the transition to digital music has brought other problems. Converting my collection of cassettes and vinyl - or at least those I don't have on CD - is possible, but will be time-consuming and awkward, but I don't want to lose that treasured music and a good proportion of it is utterly irreplaceable (want to track down a copy of East of Eden's 'SNAFU'? I didn't think so).

    It's very unlikely that another format will surpass the CD for physical media containing music. SA-CD, DVD-A and others have tried and failed and now it's heading digital - with DRM'd downloads with poorer sound quality. I don't think it's completely inevitable that the CD will die, but in order to save it, those of us who believe in it should support it as best we can; doubly or triply so with independent labels not beholden to the RIAA leviathan, especially since those labels are increasingly the homes of 'our' music.

    Downloads have their place. The MP3 player revolution has also spawned podcasts, which are a huge force for good. But I'd hate to see the CD go the way of the dodo in favour of downloads - the two can co-exist and should.

    Halford should be ashamed of himself.

    P.S. When it comes to Iron Maiden albums, I still buy them not only on CD but on vinyl too. Yes, they still make limited runs of them, as double or triple picture discs, and they're invariably glorious. :kickass:
     
  9. Dustin

    Dustin C-C-Cool Beans!!!

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    or...get an Ipod and put something the size of a pack of cigarettes in your pocket. :)

    perfect example!!! :headbang:


    I agree... I think he is only serving 30% of his fanbase by doing it that way, but who know, he thinks it's the way to go. of couse, I'm not buying it...anyone else here buy the new halford album that you can only purchase as an MP3 download?

    I also know that not every metal fan out there has a computer (alhtough that is changing quickly) and not all of them have the full capability to download. So why limit your fanbase? Halford has his head up his wazzoo.

    case and point - me and Marc are the only band members who go online and use the internet for nearly everything - that is 2 out of 5 guys in our band! Matt and Lynn have access to a computer on ocassion, but choose not to use them for much else other than getting news on their favorite sports teams and pornography. :Smug: neither of them can operate their emails properly. Curtis refuses to have anything to do with the internet, he is just strange like that. Of course, he's a private contractor during the day, and to compete for buisness he finally had to get a cell phone! ....after refusing to ever own one for the last 8 years!

    So, if 2 out of 5 music consumers operate like that.... then going to an only-digital format would seem really silly.
     
  10. JazzMX5

    JazzMX5 Member

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    Oh, I've got one (read the quote again), I just haven't got a way of hooking it up to my car stereo yet. And, frankly, my car stereo isn't that great anyway (factory stock and it's a 12-year-old car), not to mention the speakers are basically shot.

    Yes, I'm planning on a new stereo/speaker setup, but you know how it is when the ol' finances are a little tight. Still, the exhaust note from this car is so amazingly musical, I can manage. :cool:

    - - - - -

    Also, your example regarding the band is a solid one. I'm on the damn computer so much I find myself forgetting that not everyone is. Curtis is kind of a law unto himself in that way (bless him!), but Matt and Lynn are representative of a lot of people out there. Not everyone's on the cortex like we are.

    You know, I thought Maiden were crazy for doing what they did with Virtual XI in '98 and Ed Hunter in '99. A Photoshopped football (soccer) team, what appears to be an original PlayStation with a VR headset on a cover, teaming up with AOL of all people for CD-ROM content, and of course a thoroughly awful PC game. But, ultimately, they are running polar opposites to Halford now... since not only are they still putting out CDs but also issuing every single new album on vinyl (as limited-edition picture disc sets). And that is awesome.

    Yes, I buy the vinyl versions too. :)
     
  11. Dustin

    Dustin C-C-Cool Beans!!!

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    :Smug:
    Very good point!

    It looks like the guys in Maiden know what "Metal" is really all about, and what their fans want!

    Intersting enough, one of my other favorite bands, Threshold, released an online-only single for download, with (what I am guessing.. I could be wrong) a few non-album tracks? I suppose that is one way to get yoru fans to cough up the cash for product they won't get on the actual CD reelase, but as much as I love these guys, I still would rather have a hard copy with all the fixings... so I passed.

    I have to sum it up this way as for the different types of music consumers:

    a.) the gung-ho music fan that likes to "collect" music in all forms - Vinyl, CD, MP3, DVD's ect. ect. but prefers tangible prodcut, and possibly uses MP3's as a means to carry their massive "library" in there pocket everywhere they go when away from the library. For this creature, Music is life, andis treated like a sacred cow.

    b.) the surface music fans who conservatively buys CD's from bands they already know, or are turned onto by other people form time to time, but don't have access to (or technical savy and patients for) the interenet to really discover new artists or download albums.... possibly will give you a blank look when you say "MP3"? Fun Fact?: according to the CEO of iTunes - This music consumer makes up over 75% of the market. Facinating...

    c.) Passive music fans which feel music is a disposbale commodity (a phrase coined by our guitarist Marc), and don't realy care wether they buy, download or rip their music, in fact they could possibly go the rest of their life listeing to the radio, and probably never have more than 20 or 30 CD's in their home at any given time, all "greatests hits" and "best of's". They normally buy and sell their CD's like stock options when they are done with them, or download the albums directly off of digital sotres, as they don't take up any space this way. And if they get lost in an HD crash? oh well, no biggie, they use a torrent site to get them again. They pretty much take what they get for free, cheap or easily as a convienence. Everyone knows a few people like this.


    :saint:
     
  12. MattSnakepit

    MattSnakepit Member

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    I guess I'm not a passive fan of music, so I've always believed in purchasing and owning the physical medium. When I grew up, it was vinyl or tape- and I even remember the days of the 8 Track as my parents had one on their particular stereo. When the format moved to CD I was apprehensive (I didn't like the condensation of the size of art work and liner notes seemed much more massive in a vinyl jacket) but I made the move as vinyl was quickly moved to a serious collectors market. Now with the advent of Ipods, MP3's and such, I always have been a follower of a band based on albums, not select songs. Yes- there are songs that I prefer from a band, but 99% of the time if I like a song or two from an artist I will be an active participant in every song on the album. Iron Maiden happens to be my all time favorite act- and yes there are some stinkers on certain classic albums- but I don't pass by "Quest For Fire" on "Piece Of Mind" or "Invaders" on "The Number Of The Beast" because I would lose out on what the musicians intended with their albums.

    My wife has tried through the years to get me to buy an Ipod and I haven't. If I want to listen to MP3's I will at my computer- but I prefer carrying around my 15-20 discs a night at work, looking at the liner notes in the CD Jacket, grabbing the full experience as the artists intended when they created their albums.

    I'll be a music collector until the day I pass from this earth- thousands of albums and all...

    Matt
     
  13. Ascension

    Ascension New Metal Member

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    l'm old enough to have seen and owned all the mediums to date. l loved vinyl & still do, 8 tracks were a waste of time, cassettes much better, & CDs a definite step above all. But, most all those were ok for my lifestyle at the times. l had definite roots and my range of mobility was fairly limited to the area where home & work existed. Now that l've become more mobile and have extended myself to an intercontinental arena, the portable media has become much more convenient. l travel with laptop & external harddrives for work & having the music l enjoy on these is much easier. There is no way l could carry all the CDs l own. l prefer to d/l music if it's available otherwise l buy the CDs. And to be honest, the CDs l buy l rip to my harddrives...still the convenience factor...even if l'm in the states, my laptop & harddrives go with me pretty much whereever l go. l also enjoy outdoor activities & my mp3 player is with me then if l choose. The only physical medium l feel attachment to is the vinyl. But, l would say that's just a nostagia thing than anything else. l've never felt an attachment to CDs...it's just not the same.
    l think what we are seeing is a mobile population that is reaching supersonic speeds & can't be encumbered. l feel that people are still attached to the music they love and want to make it accessible. Hence the need for streamlining.
     
  14. skyrefuge

    skyrefuge Member

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    Yo, I just followed the link in your nice post on the PPUSA forum over here. This thread was exactly what I thought it would be (except for Ascension's post), and I just wanted to present an alternate viewpoint.

    I'm someone who disproves your assumption that a gung-ho music fan must also be a "collector", or that someone who only listens electronically is a "surface" or "passive" fan. About four years ago, I merged my computer and stereo, ripped all my CDs, and stopped using them except in the car. Then when I finally hacked my car radio to connect to my iPod, it just no longer made any sense to buy CDs. So I stopped, and haven't bought a CD in something like 3 years.

    I think I'm just as passionate of a music fan as I've always been, and I buy about the same amount of stuff as I used to. I don't miss the tangible product at all. I understand I'm in the minority, but I think that attachment is really just a legacy of what you're used to, and in time, people won't care so much. Once people go completely electronic, I think many will find their feelings changing like mine did. Honestly, a lot of packaging is pretty mediocre, and theoretically, if a band doesn't have to pay for all that extra stuff, they should be able to keep more money for themselves. I'd rather pay the band who made the music than some crappy computer artist whose "art" I'm never really even going to look at.

    Ok, that's about it, I just wanted to let you know that there *are* weirdos like me out here.

    Neil
     
  15. Dustin

    Dustin C-C-Cool Beans!!!

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    Hey Neil!

    Actually, my extensive thread was just my soapbox of being one that enjoyes the fine wine of CD collecting...while it still exists. Hopefully I don't come across as to brash for those on the other end of the spectrum. :p

    Believe it or not, I have to have a level of respect on those that like to keep it digital, especially if they are still buying the music. That's what really matters most. In fact ,our vey own guitarist, Marc Hanson, is very much like you, although he still buys CD's now and then, he would much rather get it via iTunes or buy it digitaly as a preference. However, He can be fairly disorganized with what CD's he owns right now, so the digital-only format is probaly the best thing for him anyway.... :lol:

    Again, I seriously doubt hardcopy media will become extinct in the immidiate future, but it is going to happen down the road sometime, it could be a few years, or even decades. It is somthing that I have to learn to accept. It is a just a question of when. Yes in theory, a band (and record label) could save a ton of expenses in monotary costs on production spendings, but there are many smaller factors and policing efforts that would have to be in place in the digital world in order for that to happen, and that is still a long ways away at the moment.

    For now, we all can just agree that the music is what matters and that the artist creating it is getting just dues... be it the digital future, or the dinosaur bone collector.
    :kickass:

    I used to spin CD's all day long, pack arounnd the four or five 96 disc books... now, I am an MP3 player owner. Having 75% of my library in the palm of my hand is a godsend! But , I still buy the Cd's and rip em' down to my hard drive. With a full wall of albums, I like to call it a big game trophy case, because in this day and age, that's really all it is. And I enjoy the hunt... I'll keep buying CD's and adding to the troophy case as long as I can. :p


    BTW... love the avatar, always good to meet another 'cladie!
     
  16. Dendura

    Dendura Member

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    I go both ways but I also like to read through the booklet, disect the lyrics, admire the artwork and hold that in my hands. I can't imagine not being able to buy cd's anymore. I have more cd's than mp3's because I like those booklets.
     
  17. BrandonS

    BrandonS Member

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    I won't upgrade to HD DVD or blueray.... they're expensive and there's no reason to upgrade. Filmmakers will never release the 10-hour movie, and for that reason, DVD is MORE than they need.

    CDs could be doubled to 120 minutes, but that's about all I'd say, unless they could do 5.1 mixes and stuff, that would be cool too. I guess the CD format could use some evolution, BUT they would have to play in the same systems and have the same or lower price point. So there.

    As for MP3s, they're free and perfect. Nuff said.
     

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