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Discussion in 'Opeth (Archived)' started by nat0, Jun 29, 2009.
I guess it would be based on the audio engineer, but, do you think Mikael uses auto-tune?
I think pretty much any band uses auto-tuning these days.
Are you talking about this?
It says it's been released in 1997.
probably not in the end of Burden.
Yeah, they use it.
Use your ears. Their songs aren't drowned in it, mind you, but it's there every so often.
on the lamentations dvd you can hear steven wilson saying they are gunna tune that vocals bit in MA
it's easy to tell when it's being used, there doesn't need to be a "source."
Watch the studio footage on the Lamentations DVD. That part with Steve Wilson where they're doing vocals for Master's Apprentices you can hear that it doesn't sound that tight. Then Steve says "We'll tighten that up, and make it lush" then BAM you hear the finished result - tight as a witches cleft yeah. That's a prime example.
Friend of mine knows how to tune vocals really well, and you cannot tell.
If you are calling Steve Wilson a noob, I am sure he would appreciate that.
Thank you to the poster above me for point it out, not this guy who just latches onto an opinion, then creates every red herring around to avoid actually providing some form of back up for his claims.
p.s I have been using Waves Tune for a year now, and I like to think the corrections I make are flawless.
People think of Cher and T-Pain and think it is all slap-stick to the note, I am under the impression you have absolutely no idea of what the program is NOR how it is used. The "easy to tell when it is used" is bullshit, unless it is a blatant use of the program for effect, like in pop music, but to tune Mikaels vocals, it would have to be subtle changes to pitch that are impossible to detect.
:O So Mike's not as perfect as i thought
I watched my dvd again, I haven't seen this doco for about a year and a half, and Steve says, and I quote "I think the tuning, we'll fix that"
These are specific for harmonies which is exactly what I use Tune for. This the "aaahhhh" parts in Master's Apprentices.
That being said, we can not tell for sure his vocals are tuned. Which unless proven other wise, I will stand and say, no.
Well that's Steve Wilson, he couldn't sing his way out of an American Idol audition. As for whether Opeth uses Auto-Tune on Mike, I saw him live in Columbus and they don't NEED to. He hits the notes. Yet on album, 99% of the time people are going to be using Auto-Tune to get the perfect pitch. That's just what comes with the territory of releasing an album.
haha i was watching an interview video of steven wilson and he claimed all the people in american idol etc aren't musicians, is that where you got that from? Steve can sing though, he sings well live. I guess auto-tune is a part of all modern recordings then, even for mike haha.
it's easy to tell for the simple facts that
a) very few modern singers can actually hit pitch-perfect notes the way they are on records, especially not after recording vocals for 8-12 hours a day.
highly doubt mike can go into the studio, do 6 hours of growling, and then hit pitch-perfect notes on a singing part. not to mention that mike is off-key live sometimes too, especially when singing parts that are out of his range (but yet were pulled off on a record...surprise surprise.)
b) using auto-tune to perfectly align it to the grid (ie 100% correction in melodyne etc or the line tool in antares) makes it sound unnatural and "synthlike".
this is especially apparent when producers go overboard and auto-tune every syllable in a given line. it's also apparent when the singer is using vibrato and it's 100% perfectly in tune. this will be a big give-away, since most singers will trail off-pitch. if the notes have been tuned, they start sounding "synthy" or unnatural. it'd be the equivalent to tuning a dive-bomb on a guitar, in which it will sound just...dumb. not to mention that the human voice box changes pitch on certain pronunciations and using autotune on that once again, makes it sound fixed and unhuman.
c) big harmony parts will have vocal imperfections adding up quick if it wasn't tuned
this is why the masters apprentices part was tuned, because it was a multi-part harmony with two different vocalists and since sw can't sing for his life half of the time, obviously it's going to be auto-tuned.
clearly I'm quite uninformed. care to show me where I'm wrong, with my "red herrings" and "opinions"?
oh and btw 99% of metal producers (bogren included) use autotune. go figure? really doubt roadrunner would pay a producer like bogren to do a record that sounds like shit because they couldn't get good vocal clean vocal takes and he didn't fix any.
The red herring was how you completely avoided the topic by saying it is "obvious".
I am well aware how obvious auto tune is, but I still do not think you have any idea what the program does.
You are pulling statistics, and incorrect data out of your ass.
Show me one sound sample where auto tune is obvious in an Opeth recording.
a) Modern Singers? So we are automatically in an age of horrible singers now? Care to back your argument up with a source that agrees with your view?
Mikael would not do 6 hours of growling then do clean vocals. If you knew anything on how a record is a made (which I am now completely confident that you do not) you would know that he would do the growls either last, with the clean sections first, or vice versa, besides, he does this perfect live, or have you not heard, or seen, Opeth in concert? Ever considered Mikael is not your average modern metal vocalist? Considered that he might have be gifted with a naturally fine voice? No you didn't, did you?
b) Aligning anything to a grid does not make it unnatureal or "synth like", all quantization does it move regions to the grid, the only abuse this would hold is if the engineer quantized, say a 4/4 to 7/8. This would be obvious manipulation, but if beat detective is used, this does not affect the waveform, whereas Quantization does. Moving to the grid, is just moving something in time (as in, on the beat). Do I really need to explain this further?
You have come into this with a point of view that these people cannot sing. I am not going to disagree, but I am not agreeing either. As I need to tune vocals my self, you are arguing from a point that your claim is Mikael can not sing and needs his vocals tuned.
Shitty tuned vocals DO sound unnatural, show me one clip where an Opeth vibrato sounds unnatural.
c) Big harmonies? What is your definition of "big harmonies"? Mine is over 32 tracks. Under 32 and it just does not cut it, and you do not have to tune vocals. Do you REALLY think that producers and engineers are that lazy they only do one or two takes and decide the best? I have spent an entire week recording a single vocalist before.
The bigger the harmonies the less noticeable the tuning differences, but obvious imperfections can stick out, this is true, slight variances will not.
Steve Wilson hinted those harmonies were tuned, and there is absolutely no basis to think they were. I am not disagreeing that they were tuned, but your entire argument is centered around this possibility that they were tuned therefore all this vocals are tuned.
And I really don't care either. Either way, it sounds fantastic. But next time you want to argue the analytical aesthetics of sound recording, don't pick a fight with an actual engineer.
You can use auto tune live as well, not that I am implying anything about Steven, or Mikes vocal abilities.
You could use auto tune live, but it usually sounds horrible because you can't edit the parameters like you would in the studio. Furthermore, if you sing the wrong note, auto tune will not magically make your voice go to right note (except if you use a vocoder, but that's a different story). The only thing autotune does is correct the pitch of a note, so if you sing the wrong notes the only thing you will hear are the wrong notes in perfect pitch.
They do. When you watch the vocal recordings on "Making of Deliverance & Damnation" you'll hear Wilson saying something like "oh, we'll put it in tune later" or something like that. Furthermore, everyone does auto tuning these days. If you for example play along an old vinyl or classical music and compare it to any album made after 1990 you'll hear the difference.