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Free Will

Discussion in 'The Philosopher' started by no country for old wainds, Apr 4, 2005.

  1. JColtrane

    JColtrane Member

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    My opinion on this is pretty simple: As humans, from our perspective, we have free will. Whether we actually do or not, i'm not sure. All I know is that I live as if I do have free will, so for me to believe that I do not is rather pointless.
     
  2. speed

    speed Member

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    Nice statement, I totally agree with you man. And I also agree with AnonNick on this one.
     
  3. unknown

    unknown fuck ftagn

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    a very cogent argument which I agree wholeheartedly with
     
  4. speed

    speed Member

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    ^^^yes well the whole predestination thing and divine plan is rather calvinist, but yeah it is pretty much a carry over from the jewish old testament and paganism. I agree it is a totally untenable theological argument for any Christian. I blame the early church for not totally seperating Christianity from Judaism.
     
  5. NeverIsForever

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    Excellent point. I would argue that this is the reason people created religion in the first place--out of the desire to believe that the realm beyond death holds something other than eternal oblivion...
     
  6. JColtrane

    JColtrane Member

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    The early church was actually a sect of Judaism. People like Paul and other members of the early church still went to the temple and were practicing Jews. Also, Christ, the centerpiece of the Christian faith, was a practicing Jew and used a good amount of Jewish scripture in his sermons and parables. You can cite the book of Hebrews for how Christians understand the Old Testament in relation to the New Testament.
    For a highly interesting discussion of free will as viewed by a Christian, you can read The Brothers Karamazov by Fyodor Dostoevsky and also Ralph C. Wood's article on it, "Ivan Karamazov's Mistake".
     
  7. unknown

    unknown fuck ftagn

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    I would agree with you. I believe one of the main aspects of religion is to instill people with hope that there is something after this life....so that people will be productive and good
     
  8. speed

    speed Member

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    I meant the catholic church when they decided to accept the Old Testament into the canon. And lets not forget, the christianity of Paul, is mch different than the chrisitianity of Christ. And I dare say Paul was a much more important figure than Christ.

    In fact one of the most interesting figures in early church history was a Greek named Marcion. IF one searches the catholic encyclopedia, one will notice they style Marcion the greatest threat ever to the Christian faith.

    Marcion basically styled the Jewish god as evil for abandoning his son etc, and Jesus represented the new god of light and goodness. THus Marcion created the first christian canon comprised of passages from Luke, and selected letters from Paul. Marcion was one of the richest men of the age, and he had more followers in the 2nd century than the catholic church.
     
  9. JColtrane

    JColtrane Member

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    In actuality, Paul handwrote maybe one or two of the letters that we attribute to him (most of them were co-authored), so although I agree his influence is large, it is not as big as people make it out to be in my opinion--his influence is not dominating in the New Testament. Also, I think Paul's teachings are in complete accordance with Christ's--in general that Christ is the sacrificial lamb that cleanses the sins of the world--if you could site specific examples that would help support your argument.

    In my opinion, Marcion's thought makes absolutley no sense for the reasons I sighted above--both Christ and Paul were of the Jewish faith. Christ is pictured in Luke and Paul's letters as not destroying the Jewish scripture, but fulfilling it.
     
  10. Kenneth R.

    Kenneth R. Cináed

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  11. AlphaTemplar

    AlphaTemplar Morgan Freeman

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    we are the sum of our genes reacting to our environment(and our perception of the environment).
     
  12. speed

    speed Member

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    I still disagree, and I am frankly surprised you are selling Paul so short--there is an excellent book on Paul that discusses all of this, I just cant remember the name right now. Anyway, Paul may have been jewish, but he preached to an entirely pagan audience, with a decidedly christian message thad had few traces of the old testament and judaism. The early jewish christian sects didnt want to preach to non jews; paul was the first to do so. Remember there were a number of jewish sects much like Christianity, it took Paul to reach out to the non Jews to make Chrisitianity popular.


    And I mention Marcion as he was the first to attempt to make a total break with Judaism and all of its traditions and myths. He edited Pauls letters and the gospel of Luke to remove any of the jewish influence. And he had a huge number of followers--more for a time than followed the roman based church. I have always found this fascinating. In many ways Marcion created his own religion that is somewhat like Manichaesim.
     
  13. Kenneth R.

    Kenneth R. Cináed

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    if you make that argument, you must also realize: neither paul nor marcion would have anything to talk about were it not for Christ.
     
  14. xxSammaelxx

    xxSammaelxx Enshrined by Grace

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    That's what I see God as. I see God as a saviour for the weak. God helps the weak be content to a degree with death, because God will be there in the afterlife, and will look after you and you will be OK. I also see god as a cop-out. When you have almost any (if not all) philosophical questions, they can all be answered with "God created it," thus making it so that most people don't look any deeper. We can't understand the universe, or life for that matter, and some see the world as a desolate hole, where they are nothing, and will always be nothing, because there will always be something greater and better, that they are a speck of dust in this universe, and this scares them, so they invent (all of this is imo) a God that will be their saviour and that reassures them, because when they die, they will be accepted, and they will BE something.
     
  15. Kenneth R.

    Kenneth R. Cináed

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    actually when you learn more about christianity, you will find that not everything answers to "God created it". also, you will find that you are encouraged to look deeper and seek meaning yourself. more than that, he is a savior for all, not the weak. you are mistaken in that assumption. the weak and the strong, all die. in that there is no difference. we are mortals. God encourages the strong to show kindness to the weak so they too may become stronger, strengthening all. he is not one who would advocate the destruction of the weak for the "greater good" of the strong, for that only lessens the number of people and killing is sinful.

    furthermore, people, as you say, see the world as so vast, the universe as so empty, and their lives as nothing but dust, and so abandon God for their own wills and purposes to achieve power and fame in this world. they fear that when they die, they will be forgotten. thus they strive rabidly to carve their name every place they can, in the dust and in the minds of their fellow people.

    you must understand, true christians do not follow God in hopes of an afterlife. they follow him because they believe it is right, and in so doing, simultaneously revoke this world's foolish notions of self-ism and buy-buy-buy greed and fame, to truly live a life of meaning beyond what one owns or knows.

    those are my beliefs as a christian, and i politely say you must be more familiar with the religion to discuss it so.
     
  16. JColtrane

    JColtrane Member

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    I agree with SS, there are much better arguments against God than simply that he was invented by the weak to give them hope. For me Christianity is much more than hope in an afterlife, but also a fulfillment of my person as a human being on this earth. For me the purpose of my life rests in God, as opposed to being in myself. I think that this is good because I believe that God created this world and you have true fulfillment as a person when you realize your creator's purpose for you.
     

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