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Getting your loudness?

Discussion in 'F.O.H.' started by Ice Man, Jan 21, 2007.

  1. stringy_

    stringy_ Member

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  2. nwright

    nwright Member

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    I run comps and limiters on pretty much everything at some point before hitting the master buss and I still don't get those levels! I guess I'm not doing enough of it then? But, even so, my mixes are LOUD.

    Thanks for the tips, back to experimenting...
     
  3. JBroll

    JBroll I MIX WITH PHYSICS!!!!

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    If your mixes are loud and you don't feel like you're losing bandwidth because of nasty peaks

    RMS MEANS PRECISELY COCK

    and that's the end of that.

    Jeff
     
  4. Slate

    Slate Member

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    Hey whats up fellas, CJ, Everybodys X..

    Clipping works because it actually affects your balances very little, unlike Limiting which affects them a LOT. If you do it with a mix that has a good frequency balance (like make sure you don't have +8 at 60Hz!) you can push a mix pretty hard and get -9db RMS without many artifacts. If I had to do it the plugin way, I would:

    Eq the mix with a nice eq, leveling the lows and midrange so they aren't overbearing, and maybe perk up the 1-2k area, and the ultra highs if the song needs more air. Keep in mind, your mix might not need ANY EQ.

    Then you may want to level the dynamics with a plugin compressor. The idea is to use a compressor with as little sonic imprint as possible, if you want sonic imprint, do it with your mix compressor. As with eqing, the mix might already have enough compression, so use your ears.

    Then, I would use TWO of the Gclips chained back to back, with the 2X oversampling ON, doing a few db with each. Finally, I'd use about 1db of Voxengo Elephant limiter on the "punchy" preset. If you have to use more then 1db, you're not using the clipper enough. This should make your masters -9db RMS on the loudest sections. If you dare go further then -9db RMS, its going to start sounding like ass. Most stuff today averages -9db.

    As for my drum samples, I appreciate the positive response. If you guys were up for it, I would do a Sneap Forum group buy. Here is a final mastered mix with the samples. I didn't have to process the samples at all, what you hear is what you would get:

    www.yellowmatterrecords.com/slate/LoatheMasterMS.wav

    Let me know guys, my email is support@stevenslatedrums.com
     
  5. stringy_

    stringy_ Member

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    As for clipping not affecting your balance, I really, really noticed that.

    I pulled up an old mix to experiment with that GClip plug and threw it on there plus the Timeworks Mastering Comp. I took a couple listens and my snare was cracking away like mad, but the mastering comp was hardly working.

    I think I've been subconsciously always mixing the drums louder to compensate for the mastering limiters fucking up my mix and burying the drums. It's nice to learn a new technique where my mixes will translate better after they go through the mastering stage.
     
  6. nwright

    nwright Member

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    YES!

    I do the same thing. I stripped away my whole mastering chain last night and the drums were completely insane, flooding the mix. I tried some techniques that you guys discussed here and using the Gclip and some subtle comps and limiters on different tracks sounded very nice.

    Still not getting -11, but I was able to get to about -17...And, it sounded nice without being crazy.

    Thanks for the tips, guys!
     
  7. Wadi

    Wadi Member

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    The loudness war has begun! :heh:

    Seriously, this is a good tip on "how loud can you go". Although, some of us here irks at the loudness of todays music on CD especially on re-mastered ones, this is a great info even if we dont use it :headbang:

    Thank you Slate! :kickass:
     
  8. Brett - K A L I S I A

    Brett - K A L I S I A Dreaded Moderator

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    RMS values depends on your window size, so don't take figures coming from other people for granted, that doesn't make any sense...
     
  9. broken81

    broken81 Used by Protools

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    im lost on the rms thing now how do you know your window size??
     
  10. Wadi

    Wadi Member

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    How is that so Brett? Care to explain?
     
  11. Slate

    Slate Member

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    RMS = "average loudness". If you have an RMS meter and you are playing a song and it reads -12db, then thats the general LOUDNESS of that part of the song. If you have another song that also meters -12db RMS, then there is a good chance that the two songs will sound similarly loud. But some factors make a track have more APPARENT LOUDNESS. One thing that will make something sound louder is upper midrange and hi end eq, like say a bump at 4k and 12k.

    A good place to aim for RMS for most masters is -10db. But if you want it to be super loud go to -9db. If you go to -8db, there is a good chance that you will start having to make a compromise, most noteabley in the PUNCH area. But its done a lot today, and it sucks because punch and impact are cool.
     
  12. Brett - K A L I S I A

    Brett - K A L I S I A Dreaded Moderator

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    Let's take this plugin :
    [​IMG]
    As you can see it has a Win parameter, which is Window Size.

    "When measuring RMS you must first define a window size. The window size that you select will determine the size of the sample that the plugin uses to calculate RMS. You must provide the plugin with enough data (a minimum of two complete cycles) to produce accurate results. If you make the window size too large then small voltage changes may get averaged out making the RMS result less responsive. A good guideline is to choose a window size large enough to include several complete cycles."
     
  13. Wadi

    Wadi Member

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    Ah, I get it. As long as I am monitoring the songs on the same screen, I dont care about what others say :heh: .

    Never knew there's a window size related with RMS. But I do notice at least a 2db difference when I compare the meters on Karjeous limiter plugin and wavelab's RMS meter.
     
  14. slinky_

    slinky_ Member

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    Has anybody tried inserting a gclip to the snaretrack? I tried it this morning, and I think it works. After putting a clipper to the snare you can push you mix a little louder not having to clip the whole mix and worrying about the snare, then you could propably insert another slight gclip and a limiter in the masterbus.

    Just an idea :)
     
  15. Gnash

    Gnash Lefty

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    Best thread yet! And JBroll, you seriously need to write some fucking novels, or a book on AE, If your not already.:lol: Fucking hilarious! I would do it, but this cold world has left me witless.:cry:
     
  16. slinky_

    slinky_ Member

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    Is STW Mastering compressor actually a clipper? cause it really sounds and acts like one...
     
  17. TheStoryteller

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    Yes, it's a clipper.
     
  18. slinky_

    slinky_ Member

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    The name is somewhat misleading then :) But I really like STW, running the evaluation at the moment. It sounds awfully much the same as the GClip! So I´m propably not gonna buy it.
     
  19. TheStoryteller

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    I tried both Timeworks and GClip, plus Voxengo Elephant which can also act as a clipper. Out of the three, I like Timeworks better.
     
  20. Slate

    Slate Member

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    Timeworks to me alters the frequency a bit. The Gclip seems more transparent, probably due to the 2x oversampling which I insist everyone enables. For software imo it works pretty nicely. I didn't like Voxengo's clipper, but I will use it for the final 1db of limiting on some masters. I used the Timeworks for quite a while and it can certainly deliver, but I still recommend GClip.

    Keep in mind guys that when I master a record, what I actually do is use my A/D converter as a clipper, and this sounds even more transparent then the software clippers. Many of you might have some good A/Ds, such as the Lynx Aurora. Try going out analog and back into your A/D, you might be surprised how hard you can push it without much audible results. A lot of mastering engineers use the Lavry Gold A/D, Prism Dream A/D, but it still may work on lower costing A/Ds as well. Try it and let me know what happens. And remember, if you push the A/D (or push the software clipper) and you hear distortion, like audible distortion, it means either you are pushing too hard, OR, and this is more likely, the frequencies of your mix are not balanced.
     

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