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How To Refute Flat Earth Lies

Discussion in 'The Philosopher' started by FEZZILLA, Jul 25, 2018.

  1. FEZZILLA

    FEZZILLA Member

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    Outline of Topics:

    Post #1 - Introduction & Firmament/Heavens
    Post #2 - The Artist Behind the Picture
    Post #3 - The "Chuwg" Isaiah 40:22 Super Post
    Post #4 - Job 26:7
    Post #5 - Job 37:18, Solid Sky
    Post #6 - Job 26:10
    Post #7 - The Spinning Globe Post
    Post #8 - Ecclesiastes 1:6
    Post #9 - Jesus Returns to the Round Earth
    Post #10 - Flat Earthers Challenge To Isaiah 40:22 -- REFUTED!!
    Post #11 - Flavius Josephus (37-100 A.D.)
    Post #12 - Explaining the Moving Sun in the Bible
    Post #13 - Clement of Rome (35-99 A.D.) -- Globe Earth!
    Post #14 - The Forgotten "Round World" Verses of Scripture.
    Post #15 - Did The Greeks Influence The Christians?
    Post #18 - The book of Enoch


    INTRODUCTION
    I know there are many people on social media sick of the flat earth nonsense. We all know the earth is round, a globe, a sphere. But most flat earthers also know the earth is round but chose to spread lies with the purpose of anarchy and chaos in mind. The goal is simple but subtle: Attack the Bible and make it look like it teaches flat earth while pretending to be Christians (making Christians look stupid). They also attack NASA to spread an unwarranted hatred against NASA for the purpose of eventually weakening the space agency so that our Nation Defense will become weak and we'll be attacked by other countries and destroyed. Make no mistake about it: this flat earth movement is all about anarchy and death to modern civilization. Since the Bible is the founding document of modern civilization, it must be attacked. This flat earth movement is not a Christian movement! Do no be fooled! I'm a Christian...and have studied the Bible and creationism now for 15 years. I do know what Christians have believed from the 1st century of Christ on up to the present now.

    So in this topic you will see more of a database of information so that all you need to do is copy-paste from it in debates against flat earthers. I own all documents quoted from here and nothing is borrowed from online. I hand typed all this to make sure the Internet had this information available. My philosophy behind my debate against flat earthers is to just answer their skepticism on the Bible and then they will disperse just as they did at Babel. My online assault against Flat Earth lies has been very effective as not one flat earther has been able to last long in a debate against me due to the powerful information I have which all comes from the most reputable sources covering 2000+ years of Christianity as well as Judaism. So the focus of this topic is not th verses quoted as much as how to properly interpret those verses. I guarantee that if you know how to use this information you cannot lose a debate against flat earthers.

    FIRMAMENT/HEAVENS
    The first place to start is with the firmament. Flat earthers use outdated English and bad translations to based their phony theology on. The King James Bible is a very good translation but the problem with that translations and others is how back in the 16th century when English translation were being written, there was no set standard of English and words and phrases back then can mean something entirely different today. For example, the KJV use of the word Heaven found in Genesis 1:14 means heavens as in more than one heaven. The word replenish in the KJV simply meant to fill the earth. There is a long list of words and phases in the KJV which no longer carry the same meaning in today's English as they did in 1611.
    Then there are the corrupt liberal translations like the Obamacare Bible...the NIV 2011 Edition (NIV'11). This corruption changed 40% of the NIV'84 to fit liberal propaganda against the Bible. Other corruptions of the Bible done by liberals are the NRSV and NAB (also known as NABRE). The NIV'11 is published by the same company as the Satanic Bible which speaks volumes about the liberal agenda behind that corrupt translation.

    So in this first post we will just focus on the firmament of the heavens using the most reliable lexicon on the market which is The New Strong's Expanded Exhaustive Concordance Of The Bible.


    Firmament/expanse from The New Strong's Expanded Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible:

    As you can plainly read the word "raqiya" does not mean solid dome. Flat earthers reject the reliability of Strong's and just go by what memes and youtube says. In other words, they oppose the entire body of Christ from the beginning up to the present now. With this kind of rejection towards authority the movement cannot be considered Christian. There is no solid dome in the Bible.

    The proper word for "raqiya" would translate as expanse in our modern translations with up to date English and grammar.

    Next we have the word heavens which in the KJV grammar of the 16th century was translated as heaven. But the word, depending on its application in context, would mean either a singular heaven or the heavens beyond our earthly sky.


    Heaven/Heavens defined in The New Strong's Expanded Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible:

    Thus, the sun and moon and stars (planets included in stars) are not being placed in the sky of the earth, but in the vast expanse of the heavens. So here are modern translations that have Genesis chapter 1 translation real good. The weakest of these translations presented here is the NASB, so I will link that translation last.

    The MEV is a solid modern English translation which nicely updates the KJV grammar.
    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+1&version=MEV

    Likewise the ESV nails Genesis chapter 1 down real good.
    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+1&version=ESV

    The NKJV is probably the most solid of all modern translations but it does not use the word expanse, but continues to use firmament. This is fine as long as the grammar is also translated into modern English grammar which it is.
    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+1&version=NKJV

    The RSV, like the NKJV, uses firmament but provides us with an accurate Hebrew to modern English grammar.
    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+1&version=RSV

    The NASB is a solid translation that does contain some noticeable translation errors. But since Genesis 1 is done perfectly I will link it up with the other translations that accurately translated Genesis 1.
    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+1&version=NASB

    In light of the Strong's lexicon and reliable translations we see an entirely different firmament/expanse than what is presented by flat earthers from their radically far left sources which cannot be traced past the 20th century.

    This refutes the flat earth lie that the sun, moon and stars are placed in the sky of the earth. The Bible actually does tell us that the sun, moon and stars are placed in the expanse of the heavens. The Bible teaches us about many heavens beyond the sky of the earth. The sky of the earth would just be singular heaven. The Strong's definitions are the best and most trusted.
     
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  2. FEZZILLA

    FEZZILLA Member

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    The Artist Behind The Picture.


    babyloniancosmologybiblke9.jpg

    heavens (1).gif

    Ancient Hebrew Cosmology.jpg


    Flat earthers will constantly post photos such as this one. They post it over and over and still over again, hoping you will evetually believe that this picture represents the world according to the Hebrews. The photo you see here is a colored replica of a photo drawn up by an English-born Jewish Biblical scholar by the name of Nahum Sarna (1923-2005), who's approach to theology was very liberal. He was never able to substantiate his claims of flat earth Hebrews. He drew a picture and the ideology of this picture drives the flat earth movement. But as you will learn in this lesson about the shape of the earth from the Bible, there is no tradition of flat earth among either the Jews or the early Christians.
     
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  3. FEZZILLA

    FEZZILLA Member

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    The "Chuwg" Isaiah 40:22 Super Post.

    Chuwg: circle, circuit, compass, sphere,

    Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon:
    sphere-circle.png


    The English word “circle” is the Hebrew “Chuwg,” which means to describe a circle---compass, as in a compassing circle (as in a globe shape, 3D circle). It also means circuit (Strong’s numbers H2328, H2329) Therefore chuwg (or khug) is used to describe a circle that compasses itself. The English word compass used as a verb means to surround; to encircle; to environ; to stretch round, while encompass (also used as a verb) is to form a circle around; to encircle. As a noun the word compass means a magnetic or electronic device used to determine the cardinal directions (usually magnetic or true north). The flat earth conspiracists reject the four cardinal directions in their flat earth model. They reject the reality that the polar regions (North and South) exist.
    https://wikidiff.com/compass/encompass

    Jamieson, Fausset & Brown: Commentary on the Whole Bible,

    Matthew Henry's Commentary

    Henry Morris Study Bible,

    =================================================================
    How it was applied by the ancient church,

    Here is 4th century Bishop Ambrose giving a reading from Isaiah 40:22.

    Here is the English translation of Jerome's Latin Vulgate,

    The English "circle" is meant to be understood as a 3D circle as seen from space.
     

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  4. FEZZILLA

    FEZZILLA Member

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    Job 26:7

    In flat earth theology, the earth is held up by a physical object. But this not the Biblical earth at all. Th earth in the Bible is not held up by any physical object.


    Job 26:7: נטה צפון על תהו תלה ארץ על בלי מה׃

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Corpus of Translations:

    ==============================================
    Hebrew Lexicons:

    The word "hangeth" found in the KJV is the Hebrew word תָּלָה.

    The New Strong's Expanded Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible:

    Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament:

    New International Dictionary of Old Testament Theology & Exegesis, Vol.4: תָּלָה (tlh), hang (#9434),

    Make sure to see Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon definition linked below and seen on the photo of this post
    https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?t=kjv&strongs=h8518
    Job 26.gif
    ============================================
    Commentary on Job 26:7,

    Believer's Bible Commentary:

    [Ridout, Job, pp.133, 134] (brackets mine).

    Jamieson, Fausset & Brown Commentary on the Whole Bible,

    Matthew Henry's Commentary,

    The Expositor's Bible Commentary (Abridged Edition),

    Ancient Christian Commentary On Scripture: Old Testament XI -- Job,

    "26:7-9 God Suspends the World on Nothing

    ===========================================
    St.Ambrose (340 – 397 A.D.),

    Here is a lengthy quote which answers criticism from flat earthers. Ambrose quotes from Job 26:7 as well as explains it when he says "Let others hold approvingly that the earth never will fall, because it keeps its position in the midst of the world in accordance with nature." I am pretty certain that when Ambrose says "midst of the world" he is referring to the solar system. Here is the full context:

    Ambrose is saying that the earth will not fall or move out or away from the laws God ordained for it. Some flat earthers will still accuse Ambrose of teaching flat earth. But he goes on to quote from Isaiah 40:22,

    So let there be no mistake: Ambrose knows the earth is a globe and that it is suspended in space over nothing. The earth is said to be held up by God's will.

    Clement of Rome says this:

    The watered are encircling the earth and its foundation is grounded on God's will, which means the earth is held up by nothing other than God's will. God's will being the laws He ordained for it.
    dca7478decaf52963cfa306675ad9ec5.jpg
     
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  5. FEZZILLA

    FEZZILLA Member

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    Job 37:18, Solid Sky.

    This verse is quoted continuously by flat earthers. You cannot even engage in a discussion with a flat earther without having this verse thrown at you out of nowhere (as they will cite the verse with no connection to a discussion about the shape of the earth). They say the Bible teaches us that the sky is solid, like metal. Since flat earthers are KJV Only, lets cite Job 37:18 from the KJV,

    Other Translations:

    --------------------------------------------------------------------

    Well, that's it. We're done. They got us. Close down the churches! Hide in the hills! The Bible is over; disproven! [​IMG]

    There is a very simple response to this verse. It is a very easy easy answer. I do not feel it necessary to explain whether or not there is a figurative meaning. The answer is so easy no explanation of this verse is necessary.

    The answer: The narrator is Elihu.

    What does this mean? It means the narrator was not Job or God and thus the narrator is irrelevant.

    Flat earthers will respond: "But its in the Bible!" This does not remove the irrelevancy of Elihu's narration. His words are part of a dialogue but they do not effect our church doctrine. Now if Job or God said this then I would go into a deeper explanation. But since the narrator is Elihu there is no reason to provide any explanation longer than this one.

    The narrator is irrelevant.

    Job_37-18.jpg
     
  6. FEZZILLA

    FEZZILLA Member

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    Job 26:10

    Other Translations:

    25289332_388354234953144_8057534036754705454_n.jpg

    Here again the Hebrew word is Chuwg, which in this verse means to describe a circle, compass; an encompassing circle like a globe. No flat earth has compassing bounds at any boundary of light and darkness. To compass does not mean to go around as in the turntable of a record player. That would not be an encompassing circle. A circle that compassed the water with bounds is clearly a globe/sphere in shape. The word “horizon” also is used to describe the curvature of the waters which reflects on the shape of the earth. It can also be used to describe the curvature of the sky. The flat earthers have a hard time understanding a horizon and somehow believe a horizon means a flat disc shape earth. But one has to deviate from English definitions and centuries of education to actually believe this. But anarchists do deviate from all useful and knowable knowledge since their agenda is to destroy modern civilization.

    Henry Morris Study Bible,

    Jamieson, Fausset & Brown: Commentary on the Whole Bible,

    The Expositor’s Bible Commentary,

    The Bible Knowledge Commentary (1985 Edition)

    This is the challenge for those who question the shape of the earth.

    Ancient Christian Commentary On Scripture (Old Testament Vol. VI, Job),

    The Book of Job was written about 2000 B.C. and is believed to be the oldest written document of the Bible (though some believe Gen.1--11 may have been written before then). Some scholars place Job about 1000 B.C. Whatever the date scholars agree on it’s very old.
     
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  7. FEZZILLA

    FEZZILLA Member

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    The Spinning Globe Post.

    Job 38:14, The Rotation of the earth

    Other Translations:

    ============================================
    So it [the earth] is turning in a full rotation facing the dayspring (v.12). Henry Morris hammers this one down very well in his classic work The Remarkable Record of Job, p.40,

    The Henry Morris Study Bible,

    Jamieson, Fausset & Brown Bible Commentary, Vol.2,

    The Bible Knowledge Commentary, 1885 Edition

    *Note: figurative language is used to capture a deeper spiritual meaning.
    ===========================================
    Early Church Fathers on the Rotation of the Earth.

    The first quotations come from 4th century St.Ambrose from his work called the "Hexameron", from The Fathers Of The Church series translated by John J. Savage.

    The circle of years. That sounds like a spinning globe to me.

    This next quotation from St.Ambrose is long but necessary for this subject. Here Ambrose defines what immovable earth means while also quoting from a Psalm in which the earth is moving! Ambrose is explaining how the earth abides by the laws ordained for it by God, that it will not fall down (since it is suspended in space, Job 26:7). The earth will not float away. It is a fixed sphere and will not move from its ordained laws.

    The circular quality of a sphere [Strong’s H2328 - H2329]. This sphere is turned (Job 38:14). We can see how Ambrose is reading and interpreting Scripture.

    The next citation from Ambrose’ Hexameron deals with how the skeptics of the Bible claim that the earth cannot be a sphere because water could not remain on it.

    In the next quotation Ambrose begins the paragraph with “Scripture points out”, and then cites from Isa.40:22,

    Clement of Alexandria (150-215 A.D.)

    Clement was a 2nd century church father. The following is taken from his writing called The Instructor, which I’m citing from the very last page of Book III entitled To The Paedagous:

    And the Holy Scriptures taught Clement about the sphere of the earth and the circular course (rotation) of the 4 seasons. How do you get 4 seasons on a flat earth anyway?


    Clement of Rome ,



    tierra-gira.gif
     
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  8. FEZZILLA

    FEZZILLA Member

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    Ecclesiastes 1:6

    Other Translations:

    Strong’s number H5439,

    25289434_388986411556593_6676799450309246748_n.jpg

    Brown-Driver-Briggs' Definition
    1) places round about, circuit, round about (substantive)
    2) in a circuit, a circuit, round about (adverb)
    3) in the circuit, from every side (preposition)
    https://www.studylight.org/lexicons...

    Henry Morris Study Bible,

    King Solomon’s observation here leads us to his understanding of the shape of the earth. He knew the earth was round long before the Greeks first thought up the concept in 500 B.C. King Solomon’s reign was from 970 to 931 B.C. The Book of Ecclesiastes is based on Solomon’s own understanding of the world in which he or a student of his wrote down his conclusions in his own personal journal which became one of the Canonized Books of the Bible. Perhaps Solomon read and understood Job. Or perhaps in his wisdom he was keen enough to observe the horizon and the wind circuits and arrive to an accurate conclusion. No matter how you chose to examine the verse, its clearly speaking about a round earth.
     
  9. FEZZILLA

    FEZZILLA Member

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    Jesus Returns to the Round Earth

    Would the Son of God know the shape of the earth? He was, after all, the hand that worked creation. In the Hexameron of Bishop Ambrose, commenting about day 4, Ambrose writes about how Jesus was the hand that worked creation. He continues to describe how the Son made the sun:

    It was well understood by the early church that Jesus is God in the flesh (the word made flesh (John 1:14).
    But did Jesus Christ know the earth is round? Absolutely! Now pay close attention to the details of this passage in Luke 17:30-34:

    Here Jesus is speaking about the great harvest of the earth, or Day of God's wrath (Judgement Day). In modern terminology some could consider this an invasion of planet earth (Matt.9:37-38; 13:30, 37-43; Mk.4:29; Lk.10:2; Rev.14:14-16). This great Day of Judgement, which is the return of Jesus Christ, is described as an event the entire world will see. Now notice in verse 31 how Jesus returns "on that day," and then in verse 34 he says "on that night." Did Jesus contradict himself here? No, there is no contradiction. Jesus returns with a multitude of angels who surround the earth. On one side of the world it will be day, and on the other side it will be night! This is amazing insight on the roundness of our earth from Jesus Who created it. Jesus knew how to drop a subtle hint to future readers about the shape of the earth. But without common sense we cannot understand anything.
    25158158_388631438258757_3781366226608455888_n.jpg
     
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    Flat Earthers Challenge To Isaiah 40:22 -- REFUTED!!

    So many flat earthers try to be the mind of Isaiah and say if Isaiah meant spinning ball then he would have used the Hebrew word dur which flat earthers claim mean ball. Then they go on to say that the earth is flat like a plate in the Bible and Isaiah's use of the Hebrew word chuwg means a flat plate. So lets look into this claim and see if what flat earthers say is true.


    A Challenge to Isaiah 40:22

    There are some online articles which ask the question as to why Isaiah didn’t use the Hebrew word “dur” which carries the meaning of “ball.” This question, however, is irrelevant because we cannot go back in time and ask Isaiah this question. But wait, we can, Strong’s H1754 does define dur as a circle, ball or pile (or to move in a circle, surround, TWOT). The verse often cited by atheists is Isa.22:18 in which they ask why Isaiah didn’t use the word dur? More interesting is TWOT’s explanation of the word #418. The word was used to mean “to heap up” or “to pile something.” It can be used to mean “go in a circle.” But the word is more closely associated to dor (#1887, New International Dictionary of Old Testament Theology & Exegesis, Vo.1) which is used to mean “lap in a race, cycle of time, lifetime.” Nothing I had read would lead me to the conclusion that it would be used to describe the shape of the earth. I wanted to type the lexicons in but those very long explanations for the word dur. So anyone who can get their hands on the Strong's or TWOT are free to see how there is nothing in the explanation given that would lead us to believe Isaiah would use the word dur over chuwg.

    My Challenge To Flat Earthers

    But I have a question for flat earther: Why didn’t Isaiah use the Hebrew word “machabath” (Strong’s H4227)?

    The New Strong’s Expanded Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible,

    TWOT 600b:
    flat-earth-society-says-tesla-roadster-not-crashing-into-iss-proves-their-point-123365_1.jpg


    Since flat earthers like to cite from TWOT, why can’t they find the right word which better describes their flat plate model of the earth they designed for the Biblical view of the earth? Surely this word would have been better than chuwg? It could have been translated “...the pan of the earth” or “the griddle of the earth" or "the plate of the earth." But it wasn't. There is another word which means flat.

    Strong’s H8478 is found in Joshua 6:5, 20; which is the Hebrew word tachath which was used to describe the walls of Jericho “that the wall fell down flat “ (Joshua 6:20). The word translated flat is tachath.
    kan-gebruik-1.png

    So why wasn’t another Hebrew word which means flat used in Isaiah 40:22? Why couldn’t the verse just literally translate “the flatness of the earth”? Surely if the earth was flat and plate shaped Isaiah would have used the right word to communicate that message. The word translated circle does not mean flat as the earth is circular in shape. The definition of round carries a broad meaning in English.
     
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    Flavius Josephus (37-100 A.D.)

    Josephus was a Jewish historian who wrote the Antiquity of the Jews in 70 A.D.

    Josephus is describing how God, on the second day, placed a crystalline around the earth. Now it can be said that God could have "placed the heaven over" the flat earth. But it can also be said that God "placed the heaven" over the round earth. But one thing that cannot happen is the firmament cannot be placed around the whole world if it is flat. The firmament cannot be placed around a half-sphere, as there is no round to go around. So its clear that Jewish Historian is speaking about God placing the firmament around the entire globe of the earth. There is no mention of solid sky by Josephus either.
    5194ZKYTH5L._SX336_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg
     
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    Explaining the Circling Sun in the Bible

    One of the things mentioned frequently by flat earthers is the movement of the sun in the Bible. Youtube videos and online columns from flat earthers are plastered all over the Internet. I have spent 8 years thinking about these verses of contention. During that time I also researched those divine nuggets of truth in the Bible; and those which reveal the Divine fingerprint of God in prophecy. Having spent a great deal of time studying prophecy and dedicated in prayer to the truth of these things of God, I eventually came to what I am convinced is a sound and trustworthy conclusion.
    There are 3 major verses of contention but I will cite from 4 as to settle the matter once and for all now that we are centuries past from the Galileo incident. It will be worth noting that the subject of the moving sun in the Bible has never been an easy issue for Christian writers to answer. Many are fearful, and reasonably so, of facing harsh judgment from God if indeed their words be used against them on Judgment Day. And you better believe I have been nothing but cautious about my approach to this matter due to my own fear of facing harsh judgment from God if indeed my words are proven false. So many sincere theologians fear such judgment from God as I do if our words be considered false testimony against the Holy Scriptures. Therefore, I have taken the utmost care to tackle this issue to assure my soul that I may arrive to a true verdict. After 8 years of research I feel it is necessary to examine the verses of contention and to explain them in the most honest and truthful manner possible based on my knowledge of prophecy.

    1. Joshua 10: 1-13

    This passage has been used since the Galileo incident to prove how the sun moves around the earth....around the sphere of the earth, that is. The prophecy, coming from a lost Book of the Bible, presumably lost in one of the burning libraries of history, is hard to examine because it no longer exist. All that remains of Jasher is what is quoted in the Bible and the $25.00 forgery you can buy which contains the same account cited in Joshua 10 which proves its a modern forgery, probably a Mormon forgery. The prophecy, however, is about a long day, twice the natural length. This prophecy fulfills here in Joshua 10 and there is ample historical proofs from various ancient nations from the time of Joshua which either speak of such a day, or, as in countries like Mexico etc, speak about a long night twice the natural length. The sun that stops is only from the human perception. There are many who say that the sun stopping is an expression, and this may indeed be true about the passage. But even in the event this sun which stops in the middle of the sky is to be taken literally, as I believe is most likely to be the case here, it is not God telling Moses (presumably the author of Jasher) that the sun moves or stops, but comes from the perspective of Moses or whoever wrote the Book of Jasher. Again, the prophecy is about a day twice the natural length which was a miracle and one that God made happen. How exactly God made this happen is unknown. Perhaps God had slowed down the earth’s rotation or even froze time somehow. This cannot be explained in strict terms of modern science since this miracle is one done by God.

    2. Habakkuk 3:11

    Here we have nothing more than a reflection of the day twice the natural length in which Joshua was assured victory by God Who fought for Israel. Nowhere in this passage are we led to believe that a moving sun is something taught by God. Though the prophecy may refer to God slowing or stopping time for the exception for life on earth. How He did this is beyond our human comprehension.

    3. Psalm 19:4-6

    This particular passage carries significant spiritual meaning. Now, to be reasonably fair to the passage, it is not clear if this passage is even dealing with the sun literally moving. In fact, the expression “he set a tabernacle for the Sun” seems to indicate the sun is stationary. However, if taken literally, this stationary sun goes from stationary to mobile when it is compared to a mighty man running his race. But this can also be a figurative attempt to convey the sun rising and setting, as a psalm is a poem and poems often carry figurative language. This passage is also most likely in connection to ‘The Sun of Righteousness’ in Malachi 4:2, which means the light of Christ will be as the Sun shining in on the darkness of the world with healing in its wings. This light of Christ, figuratively compared to the sun in verses 4-6, shall go through the whole earth with the message that brings light, healing and justice to the inhabitants of the earth. Thus Psalm 19:4 is cited by the Apostle Paul in connection to spreading the word of the Gospel:

    When David speaks of the tabernacle for the sun, this is to be understood as the dayspring (KJV) of Job 38:12. In Job 38:12-15, the morning light exposes the wickedness of those who walk in darkness. But in Psalm 19:5-6, the rays of the sun make their way throughout the whole earth, coming with healing to the righteous (Malachi 4:2) and condemnation for the wicked (Job 38:15; Malachi 4:1). All this is a figurative language which is there to convey a deep spiritual meaning. The sun represents the light of Truth which comes from the Son who is Jesus Christ. This is why Paul cites from Psalm 19:4 when addressing his fellow Jews. The dayspring (Job 38:12) and the tabernacle for the sun (Psalm 19:4) view the sun as stationary, according to the natural laws ordained for it if we are to interpret this literally.

    So the psalm should not be taken in a literal, carnal manner, but interpreted from a strict spiritual perspective. Comparing the light of Christ to the brightness of the sun would be the best way, from the human perspective, to describe the awesome power of God’s justice and salvation, as well as the burning heat against the wicked who refused God’s free gift of eternal salvation.

    4. Ecclesiastes 1:5

    The entire Book of Ecclesiastes is Solomon’s conclusion of his life’s journey. The Book contains a wealth of wisdom which even today one will do well to learn from. Even though Solomon fell deeply into idolatry and embraced pagan gods and did what he pretty much wanted to do; he did, in the end, realize that in his error he accomplished nothing more than chasing after the wind. His final conclusion to the meaning of life was to love and obey the Lord and keep His Commandments. Ecclesiastes is not a Book of Prophecy, but contains King Solomon’s personal testimony according to his own perspective. This does not mean the Book is rubbish and unworthy to be read. On the contrary, his wise testimony should be read by everyone!

    While this verse has been used to describe the sun rising and setting, it has also been used to describe the sun circling the earth. This sun, as literally read, draweth to his place where he riseth. If indeed we are to take this literally, and I believe that to be the case with this verse, then the sun is circling the earth. I simply do not see any sign of figurative speech in this verse, and believe that this verse is to be interpreted as a sun circling the earth. God did not reveal to the Jews all there is to know about scientific mysteries. The Jews, including all the Biblical writers, were not gods nor were they God. They were just as subject to human err as you and I are. God revealed to them only what He thought would be of greater importance, such as the salvation of the world. It is only by God’s wisdom that He did reveal some modern scientific knowledge to His servants so that we, the future readers, will know that He is the Lord. But we also must know that the Bible itself is not the object of worship as it is not God. God’s servants, the Prophets, were people, ordinary people, who were chosen by God to deliver His message to the people of earth.
    We must understand that the Bible was never meant to be a science textbook. The message in the Bible is there to secure our souls for a more important afterlife. Such content demands more attention than physical science. God left science up for people to discover, as God wanted mankind to explore His creation and enjoy what He had made. But many will automatically ask the question: Well if the sun goes around the earth in the Bible, what else in the Bible contains scientific errors? A reasonable question to ask. I have arrived to the conclusion, which I firmly believe is the correct conclusion, that there is only one scientific blunder in the Bible (Ecc.1:5) and that deals with the circuit of the sun. But this err in the Bible has absolutely no impact on the infallible message the Lord has given to us on earth. Perhaps, when Solomon fell into idolatry, his view of the sun was shaped by pagan philosophers of his time.
    Lastly, I firmly believe that God revealed the spherical shape of the earth to Job first, which Solomon well understood, and then God delivers that message again to Isaiah. There is no question that Isaiah 40:22 is straight out prophecy from the LORD. God may have revealed a stationary sun to Job, but what was revealed could not have been understood until the modern era. So the Bible does teach a stationary sun (Job 38:12; Psalm 19:4) and a mobile sun (Ecc.1:5), depending on whether you are reading Job or Ecclesiastes. But one thing we can be certain about is how the earth is a sphere and, in the Bible, the sun travels around this sphere in Ecc.1:5 . So even an err of a circling sun in Ecclesiates proves the earth is round! I do believe God searches for humble hearts and does not like a man so proud as to believe he is above the knowledge of God.
    Yes, I believe the Bible is the authoritative word of God and I hold this belief very dearly and do not stray from it. My reasons for writing this section were to increase faith and not to decrease it. For when people are told for centuries that the sun in the Bible is stationary in all verses, and then see Solomon speaking about a circling sun, then the Bible student reads that, this can cause one to lose faith over something so small. Its small because it has no impact on the Message. Most importantly: Think with a clear mind and do not let your mind dwell on sensations which are demonic and unnecessary to dwell upon. The unstable mind will dwell on little things and turn little things into major issues. But the Lord wants us to keep a level head and a clear mind, and not to live in conspiracy and in constant suspicion. Just keep your eyes set on Christ and stay in the Word daily and you will be saved for your faith. But when you lose faith over little matters that mean nothing, you lose your soul for an eternity over nothing that mattered.
    Earth-Sun.jpg
     
  13. FEZZILLA

    FEZZILLA Member

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    Clement of Rome (35-99 A.D.) -- Globe Earth! [​IMG]

    Outline Of Subjects

    (a) Who was Clement of Rome?
    (b) Origen explains Clement's Comment
    (c) St.Clement vs.St.Augustine Bout [​IMG]
    (d) Clement of Alexandria (150-215 A.D.)
    (e) Back To Clement of Rome
    (f) An Old Indian Chief Speaks about Washington


    Who was Clement of Rome? He was the first Successor of the Apostles, consecrated by the Apostle Peter to lead the church of Rome. The peak of his ministry was from 50--97 A.D. He was Bishop of Rome from 88 A.D to the day of his death in 99 A.D. clement knew the Apostles of Christ and is the most important Successors of the Apostles of the church. Therefore his words carry much authority, some argue his words may be Scripture they carry so much weight!

    Clement of Rome is mentioned in the Bible (Philippians.4:3),

    St.Paul mentions Clement as being written in the Book of Life. No small claim here. Some theologians attribute the author of Hebrews to Clement as it is his grammar and style of writing. Clement's authority as a Successor surpasses all 21st century scholars. Not one scholar can disagree with Clement without falling into heresy. His mention in Php.4:3 by St.Paul obviously placed him in high esteem. He is the first of the early church fathers after the Apostles of Christ. His words my not be Scripture, but they weigh heavy on how Scripture is interpreted. Both quotations are taken from The Ancient Christian Writers series Vol.1. His Epistle To The Corinthians was written in 97 A.D. which is only one or two years after the Apostle John penned Revelation!

    This is referring to a spherical earth. Furthermore, this comment by Clement is referring to the establishment of the heavens and the earth before dry land appeared. This means that only water would have been seen encircling the globe. The next comment, though indirectly spoken, confirms the sphericity of the earth.

    51XLmi3CQUL._SX320_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg

    Here Clement is speaking about antipodes which, in his time, was defined as people who lived on the other side of the earth, or who plant their footsteps opposite to ours. This is what Clement is speaking about. St.Augustine had trouble believing Clement and others about people living on the opposite side of the world. But as it turns out Clement of Rome was correct (Clement 1, Augustine 0).
    Back in the 1st century, crossing the oceans to other worlds was not by any means an easy feat and even seemingly impossible. But nevertheless, God still made the seemingly impossible very possible during the rise of Christendom when ship building would become more advanced and eventually Christians would make it over to the other side of the earth.

    Origen Explains Clement’s Comment:

    Origen (185-254 A.D.)

    Origen of Alexandria was born in the 2nd century but his ministry would make him a 3rd century man. He is an Ante-Nicene church father who wrote On First Principles, which is the very first book on Theology ever written by a Christian. The following quotation is taken from the John C. Cavadini edition.

    51Wqja86dkL._SX322_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg

    So we also know Origen knew the Bible taught spherical earth.

    Now combine the first quotation from Clement of Rome with his comment about antipodes of opposite earth and you have a clear view of how other early church fathers would have also understood both Clement and the Scriptures. Who you gonna believe: 20th century liberal scholars or 1st a century church father appointed by the Apostle Peter? Clearly the Apostles and earliest of church fathers knew what chuwg meant and how it would translate into other languages. It never translated as a flat earth to them so why would we consider the petty word definitions of 20th & 21st century liberal scholars whose only motive was to appease evolutionists?

    St.Clement vs. St.Augustine bout [​IMG]

    St.Augustine indirectly mentions Clement's statement confirming its meaning. This is found in his book City Of God, Book XVI chapter 8. I will quote this from two translations.

    Now for another translation,

    This is a very hard passage from Augustine to follow, I admit. Its in context with an historical view of Antediluvian and early Post-diluvian people. In that discussion Augustine does well. But in between all this there is this chapter in which he stumbled due to his disagreement with earliest church father, Clement of Rome. Not every word Augustine says is false, but his disagreement over antipodes has given Clement the room to land the TKO punch on Augustine, laying him out flat cold.
    Augustine is one of the greatest Christian minds known to history. His works are valuable to us even today. But no man is perfect and all men have trouble mentally comprehending certain issues. This antipode issue was a stumbling block to a great many wise men.
    Also do not be fooled into thinking Augustine did not know the earth was round. His disagreement is with antipodes and not the shape of the earth itself. It is very clear that Augustine believed in a spherical earth. The following quotation is taken from Augustine’s book The Literal Meaning of Genesis, Vol.1. (Ancient Christian Writers, Vol.41).

    Here Augustine is speaking about the light God created. He speaks with confidence concerning his own knowledge of the shape of the earth. He sees an earth that is spherical and rotating. He may not of had all the knowledge he would have wanted to know, but the shape of the earth is spoken with confidence.

    Clement of Alexandria (150-215 A.D.)

    There is also another Clement...Clement of Alexandria. This Clement is also an early church father from the 2nd century.

    The following is taken from his writing called The Instructor, which I’m citing from the very last page of Book III entitled To The Paedagous:

    1354175791.jpg
    And the Holy Scriptures taught Clement about the sphere of the earth and the circular course (rotation) of the 4 seasons. How do you get 4 seasons on a flat earth anyway?

    Scripture was the basis for understanding fundamental things like the shape of the earth. Such a subject required no special skills back then in interpreting as it does for English speaking people today. Augustine simply messed up with his disdain for the antipode comment made by Clement which he indirectly references, Yet Origen understood it and knew it was also from Scripture. So the Ante-Nicene fathers score on Augustine (a Nicene father). Columbus seals the deal confirming Clement's understanding of Scripture to be the most trusted.

    Back To Clement of Rome.

    Here Clement is worried that neither he or his brothers and sisters in Christ will be able to reach the antipodes who live on opposite earth. In his first comment Clement expresses the round shape of the planet, but in this comment he includes people who live on the other side of earth. His frustration here deals with the lack of ship building technology of his time as no one known in his day had a ship that could sail the vast expanse of the ocean to reach those of North, Central and South America. But he does conclude that those peoples are loved by God and watched over and how God will judge these people fairly if they follow the natural law God set forth for them (Rom.2:14-15) and honor the God of gods (the Great Spirit in the case of native Americans) even though they know Him not. Clement wants to bring them the good news of Jesus Christ to the people of opposite earth.

    An Old Indian Chief Speaks about Washington.

    This is one of my favorite accounts of President George Washington which is often cited in many discussions on social media. This event happens before Washington becomes the 1st President of the United States. This account is taken from "America's God And Country: Encyclopedia Of Quotations" by William J. Federer, p.636-637,

    So what we read here further confirms Clement's words about how the people of opposite earth "are governed by the same decrees of the Master” (God). All this was understood by Clement 2000 years before Columbus discovered the new world!

    Finally, Clement of Rome in the same chapter he indirectly mentioned antipodes also says the earth revolves (which means it rotates):


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    #13 FEZZILLA, Jul 25, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2018
  14. FEZZILLA

    FEZZILLA Member

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    This is my favorite post on the subject.


    The Forgotten "Round World" Verses of Scripture.

    I will start this by quoting one verse from the four old English translations of the Bible that contain them. Other verses after that I will just quote from one of those four translations to keep it simple for the reader. This post will also feature various lexicons which prove Tyndale was correct.

    Psalms 89:11 (v.12 in some Bibles):

    1535 Coverdale Bible,

    1537 Matthew-Tyndale Bible,

    1539 Great Bible,

    1568 Bishop's Bible,

    Psalm 18:15,

    1539 Great Bible:
    Proverbs 8:31,

    1568 Bishop's Bible:
    =======================================
    Hebrew Lexicons:

    The New Strong's Exhaustive Expanded Concordance of the Bible. H8398

    25289434_388986411556593_6676799450309246748_n.jpg

    The word signified, first, the solid material on which man dwells, and that was formed, founded, established, and disposed by God; and secondly, the inhabitants thereof. See TWOT 835h; BDB--385c, 1061d."

    Make sure to see Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon
    https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?t=kjv&strongs=h8398
    tebel.gif
    ----------------------------------------------------------------
    Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament.

    TWOT 835h תֵּבֵל têbêl, tay-bale'; world.

    41emL46CWKL._AC_UL320_SR238,320_.jpg
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    New International Dictionary of Old Testament Theology & Exegesis, Volume 4:

    The meaning is not lost and the lexicons prove this point for us. Even in the KJV it is speaking about the complete fullness of the world God created. But Tyndale, being the brilliant scholar he was, knew how important "round world" would be to English speaking readers, as the text does imply the whole of the earth, and its round shape (globe).
    =======================================
    A Breakdown of תֵּבֵל têbêl:

    Strong's: "; by extension, the globe;"

    Gesenius': ",the habitable globe,"

    TWOT: "First, the noun is employed to represent the global mass called earth"--AND-- "In several passages the sense of têbêl as the globular earth in combination with its inhabitants is clearly observed."

    New International: "the word conveys the cosmic or global sense in which 'eres is also sometimes used; i.e., the whole earth or world considered as a single entity."

    So where do we see flat earth?
    Earth-donkeyhotey-596x596.jpg
     
    #14 FEZZILLA, Jul 25, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2018
  15. FEZZILLA

    FEZZILLA Member

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    Did The Greeks Influence The Christians?

    Atheists make the claim that the Christians knew the earth was round only because the Greeks told them. This lie is well refuted by the Old Testament which the early Christians read and knew very well.

    There are several verses in the Bible dating as far back as 2000 B.C., 1000 B.C., 900., B.C. and 700 B.C. which state the earth is round. All these round earth verses antedate the first recorded Greek thought in 500 B.C.

    Here is a general overlay of round earth verses in the Bible. This does not cover all round earth verses but the dates in history in which these verses were written from.

    Job 26:10 (2000 B.C.),

    https://wikidiff.com/compass/encompass

    Psalm 89:11 (1000 B.C.),

    Proverbs 8:31 (900 B.C.),

    Brown-Driver-Briggs' Definition
    1) places round about, circuit, round about (substantive)
    2) in a circuit, a circuit, round about (adverb)
    3) in the circuit, from every side (preposition)
    https://www.studylight.org/lexicons...

    Henry Morris Study Bible,

    Isaiah 40:22 (700 B.C.),

    Oldest reading of this verse I found comes from 4th century St.Ambrose reading from Isaiah 40:22.

    Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon (coded with the Strong's number system),

    Jamieson, Fausset & Brown: Commentary on the Whole Bible,

    Matthew Henry's Commentary

    Anyone who has read the church fathers will see how Clement of Alexandria, Origen, and other early church fathers challenged the Greeks on their worldview. The early church was at odds with traditional Greek paganism. Though it was rarely that the shape of the earth was debated, but the early church did debate pagans who ridiculed the Bible for teaching sphere earth. St.Ambrose mentions these skeptics who ridiculed Scripture for teaching that the earth was a sphere. In fact, this ridicule is being rehashed today by flat earthers.

    hebrew-bible-scroll.jpg
    So there is no doubt that the earliest historical records which mention a round, globular earth that is suspended in space over nothing and rotating while the sun (the dayspring) is stationary, is first mentioned in the Holy Bible long before the very first Greek though of a spherical earth was ever mentioned in history.
    I read one online article from an atheist trying hard to refute flat earthers using history. He was unfair with his treatment of the Bible (which is why people like him lose debates to flat earthers) and he claimed the Babylonians and Egyptians knew the earth was a sphere long before the Bible was written. I have the oldest works of Sumer & Babylon and I found nowhere in any of my large collection of Sumerian and Babylonian documents where it is said the earth is round. But I did find flat earth beliefs in Babylon. This atheists never did reference any of the Babylonian or Egyptian manuscripts which said the earth is a sphere. I'v also been interested in finding them but none have surfaced. But could there be some real ancient works out there, older than the Bible, that express the spherical shape of the earth? There might be. Isaiah 40:21 does say:

    Isaiah 40:21 Modern English Version (MEV),
    21 Have you not known?
    Have you not heard?
    Has it not been told to you from the beginning?
    Have you not understood from the foundations of the earth?

    So perhaps it was once known that the earth was round. Though since mankind had fallen into idolatry and worshiped false gods, their knowledge began to degenerate from the knowledge that Adam and Noah and his sons had before mankind's rebellion at Babel. Isaac Newton also agrees:

    When mankind separates themselves from God, both their morality and their knowledge degenerated. But when mankind draws closer to God through Jesus Christ, both their morality and their knowledge shall be greatly increased.

    There is more I could post on this topic but this is a solid collection of truths which proves the Bible teaches globe earth. I have more posts on my Facebook page.
    https://www.facebook.com/AnsweringFlatEarthLies/

    Any questions on this topic feel free to ask ;)
     
    #15 FEZZILLA, Jul 25, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2018
  16. Bloopy

    Bloopy Active Member

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    These days the flat Earth thing seems to be about 99% internet humour, with the remaining 1% being people who are attracted to believing conspiracy theories. Much like I was attracted to theories about aliens visiting Earth when I was younger. It's no surprise if a portion of that 1% is Christian and tries to use the Bible to support their flat Earth belief. It's amusing that you see yet another thing as being a grand conspiracy to attack the Bible.

    Also, even if some passages do inadvertently seem to imply the Earth is flat, there's no shame in that. It's probably safe to say that whoever wrote them down wasn't intending to provide ammo one way or the other for the argument still raging on a couple of millennia later!
     
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  17. FEZZILLA

    FEZZILLA Member

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    I've spent quite a bit of time debating these flat earthers. I know a man who used to be a very close friend of mine for many years who, for reasons of envy and self-conceit, because an apostate from the Christian faith and now very heavy into Satanism. He chants "Death to Israel!" now and supports Hamas and Hezbollah and calls Islamic terrorism justified. He also loves conspiracy theory which is what influenced him to leave the Christian faith as I was there and witnessed all the transitional stages of how he was brainwashed. But when a person is gullible and envious of others, but also being a complete narcissist, facts don't matter. He's the first person who made me take a much closer look into the flat earther movement. Sure enough, it was a movement led by Satanists, anarchists, and other radical lefties who impersonate being a Christian while they impugn the Scriptures. The movement is a masquerade and not internet humor. If it was internet humor people might think its funny and it would hilariously funny if it was not aimed at brainwashing Christians and leading them into the occult.
    So I dropped everything I was doing and hit the books. What I discovered, which I have posted here, is that there is no flat earth tradition in the Bible. All I found was 2000+ years of round/globe/sphere earth readings from the Bible. If the ancients read flat earth from the Bible they would have expressed this in their readings of Scripture and their comments on doctrinal issues....but they didn't. The Bible itself is very clear on the issue but manipulators will be manipulators and so the best way to deal with such people is to hit them hard with 2000+ years of Biblical theology as flat earthers are only using 200 years of liberal theology which is refuted by greater known facts.
    So the movement is mostly all atheists/humanists, Satanists/witches and muslims (Qur'an does teach flat earth and there is a flat earth tradition in Islam). Its all a come-on, a masquerade, in attempts to brainwash as many Christians as possible into atheism and the occult before election 2020. Yeah, its politically driven as well. Having the knowledge I do of the occult I wasn't fooled by the phony display of piety. This same exact attempt to infiltrate the church was done by the Nazis where they succeeded in taking them over. Likewise the flat earthers aim to snatch ecclesiastical authority from the leaders of the Christian faith and hand it over to the Marxists and Satanists (both of the same spirit).

    If the Bible teaches us the earth is flat, and these passages are prophetic texts, then that proves the Bible is not the word of God but that its the opinions of uninformed ancient men. This means there is no eternal life and all people die eternally. All that just by finding one flat earth verse in the Bible. Now there is one verse in the Bible which I do believe teaches the sun moves around the earth. Fortunately that verse is not a prophetic verse but merely what Solomon believed---a belief he most likely picked up from his pagan friends when he had fallen into idolatry. Solomon's father David did not believe the sun moved but was stationary. Psalm 19 is a prophetic text even though some say its not. But it was quoted by the Apostles which means it was prophetic. Job 38 is God speaking and God says the sun is stationary and the earth rotates. So the passage, though very spiritually figurative, is no doubt a prophetic text. So the only err in the Bible I was found is Ecc.1:5 which is clearly not a prophetic text. Some say the verse is figurative and they may be right, but I do not read it that way. There is both a tradition of a moving sun and stationary sun among the early church fathers. That tells me some churches fathers did not understand the figurative verses in which a stationary sun was literally mentioned, and some followed only the most literal and plain verse which is the moving sun. Still others know Solomon's verse was not prophet whiling seeing the literal side of figurative passages which mention the sun fixed in its place. Once the figurative passages are understood, then we walk away with a literal meaning.

    In my 15 years of diving deep into the mines of Scripture I have not found anything in the Bible that would lead me to believe it was just a fictional work of ancient men with delusional minds. I know what a delusional mind is as I know enough delusional people to know how they think. What I have found is something that transcends the wisdom of this world, a stumbling block for the proud, and a knowledge capable a leading mankind kind into much greater endeavors such as modern science. And while it was the Bible's influence on Christians that lead western civilization to modern science, it was all in prophecy that such things would take place. So I value prophecy over all things, and do not see science as authoritative as the word of God. I have zero faith in evolution theory and know for a fact its a scam -- the biggest scam of the 20th century!

    The view of the shape of the earth does matter and it matters a great deal. The Holy Bible is no a message of this world. Therefore God must know the shape of the earth in order to be God. His chosen do not have to know all things...but God does. For if God is not Who the Bible says He Is, then the Bible is not God's word and it cannot thereby even be called Holy. For man's word is worthless. We've seen how far man's word goes and millions of people are mercilessly slaughtered whenever we follow man's word. But God is no man that His word be defiled with corruption. For us Christians the Bible is our guide through this lifetime on earth. It was given to mankind so that we humans might know God and receive eternal life. Human salvation is the main message of the Bible from Genesis to Revelation. If this message is no true, then atheism is true. And if atheism is true, then there is no meaning or purpose to our lives and murder, rape, child molesting, hate, war, and all over things we call wrong and evil, are all justified through power and political might. For if there is no God then morality and truth are relativism and there is no such thing as love. If I wanted to play the devil's advocate here I could strip you of your entire humanity and all your dignity and self-worth just by teaching evolutionary humanism. I could dehumanize you and everyone else until you become as worthless as a dead goat is Muhammad's sock-puppet Allah..

    Al-Adab Al-Mufrad of Imam Bukhari, Chapter 436, Hadith 962,

    ..But I never play the devil's advocate and I'm not here to dehumanize or degrade you or anyone on this forum or elsewhere in the world. For Scripture teaches that Faith, Hope, and Love are that which the Gospel message stands on. What good our humans without Faith, Hope, and Love? Where would we be without them? God does not see the world in the same way man does. For the teachings of man are found in atheism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism and other worldviews based on a human perception of life. But God does not share in our sinful fallen ways but goes much further with His love:

    This love transcends Muhammad's sock-puppet and goes farther than human love can conceive. For our Father in Heaven is the Author of Love and our Heavenly Author is Eternal Love. We humans can't live by the teachings of atheism or Islam and expect not to blow up the earth! But..as it is written, man does do such evil to each other as to destroy the earth in the process:

    Revelation 11:18,
    I could give an entire lecture on all this but the point is that mankind's sins lead to death just as it says in Scripture. So when we see these flat earthers brainwashing people into the occult, bringing them over to the acceptance of eternal death. We only have one soul and if we lose it we are just simply lost. God Is Life...not death. Those who chose death over Eternal Life get what they ask for in this life. So this flat earth deception is an act of murder...spiritual murder with intent of escalating into both spiritual and physical murder. So I took the time to dismantle the diabolical lies of murderers.

    I hope you have a better understanding of where I'm coming from and why I posted so much about this flat earth topic. Its not a fun humor movement. Its there to murder people: first spiritually, and then physically (as anarchists are genocidal driven to cause chaos and mass death).
     
  18. FEZZILLA

    FEZZILLA Member

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    I think I will add one more post to this topic which deals with the book of Enoch. Now flat earthers claim this pseudepigrapha book says the earth is flat and the moon gives off its own light...a light independent from the sun, that is. The translation I have is considered the very best one. So I’ll be quoting from the well known James H. Charlesworth’s The Old Testament Pseudepigrapha, Vol.1.
    25442750_388627471592487_1958433878208276335_n.jpg

    So lets just look and see what this book says about the shape of the earth. Keep in mind that Enoch is not a Canonical book so it really doesn't matter what it says. But for the sake of clarity lets see how trustworthy flat earth information really is.

    The sun’s sphere? So the sun and moon are spheres but the earth is a flat disc? Is this how flat earthers want us to understand it? Flat earthers also try to say this verse supports their flat earth assumptions. But if this is speaking about a flat earth, then it is speaking about a vertical flat earth! For the author of Enoch compared the curvature of the sky to the roundness of the sun and moon. Since the sun and moon appear vertical to us, therefore the earth would also be seen as vertical from the moon. Thus if we are to accept a flat earth interpretation, the flat earthers have to explain how water and people etc. keep from falling off this vertical earth with no gravity! But to the sober and clear minded this verse is speaking about a round earth, not a flat one.

    Notice the bottom diagram of this picture. If flat earthers want to forcefully interpret this passage as flat earth then they are supporting the interpretation of a vertical flat earth. I personally think it pays off the apply common sense to the passage as accept it as a round earth verse since the sun and moon are being compared to the earth's shape.
    30739276_877283109140043_7647166578419976552_n.png

    So flat earthers also claim Enoch teaches how the moon gives off its own source of light.

    Hum? You know, this is what happens when one person says this another says that and everybody trust what they heard from this person and that person and so on down the line without even once checking to confirm if Enoch indeed actually does say the things others say are in the book. But once the book is read the claims made by those who didn't read it are exposed and proven to the contrary as in the case with the passage above.

    As I said before it really doesn't matter too much which is written in Enoch as it is not canonical Scripture and never was. Its even unsure if what we have today is even the original writing. The book does appear to have some Gnostic influence in it which would mean it fell into the hands of Gnostics which is most likely the reason why this book is not Canonical. Unfortunately there were many corruptions and forgeries in ancient times and authenticating writings was a pain staking work back in ancient times but their methods were every bit as good as our but better since they lived in a time when they were practiced in their methodology. Every book was well investigated before being approved as an authentic Canonical writing of Scripture. Those books that were not authentic did not make it into the Bible. So what those books contain may have some historical value to be sure, but they are not Scripture.
    Many sincere efforts were made to separate the Inspired Books of the Bible from the philosophical works inspired only by men. All too often we hear the allegation that the Bible is a corruption and usually Constantine gets the blame for supposedly corrupting it. But when history shows how Christians weeded out the corrupted works which were not Inspired, Canonical Books, then the atheists claim they were excluding books of the Bible to hide their shame. But which is gonna be? Did the Christian church corrupt the Bible or did they weed out corrupt manuscripts? It cannot be both. The truth is that any manuscript that did not prove to be genuinely authentic was not gonna be Canonical. The Book of Enoch was never Canonized at any time. Enoch, then, was like The Shack to Christians today. But for whatever it’s worth, it did not teach flat earth science.

    There are a couple of verses in the Bible that use the expression pertaining to how the moon gives off her light. This is an expression and not meant to be understood as the moon giving off her own source of light which is independent from the sun's light. I have never read any tradition ever saying the moon had its own source of light. Enoch is believed to have been dated in 200 B.C. to 100 B.C. Even though this book is corrupt it still maintains the strong Jewish believe that the earth is round and the moon does not give up its own source of light. The expression used in the Bible is merely an expression and not to be taken literally.
     
  19. Bloopy

    Bloopy Active Member

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  20. FEZZILLA

    FEZZILLA Member

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