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Interfaith marriage, and the effect on the offspring

Discussion in 'The Philosopher' started by Dolly Despair, Apr 1, 2008.

  1. Hallucinations

    Hallucinations Dracula has a moon base..

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    Which unfortunately, there aren't many of...

    If you read chapter 9 in "The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins, you'll learn of the effect that "hell-fire" has on children and even adults (It is very well documented elsewhere also if you have five minutes and a search engine). A lot of people who have been taught to fear hell and eternal torture are psychologically traumatised and have great difficulty overcoming it.

    Saying that, I admit it isn't fair to brand all religious sorts as traumatisers of children. I come across as very righteous, ignorant and atheist (or I may be flattering myself), but that's probably been something I've picked up trying to ignore and seperate myself from the tribal sectarianism of my homeland.
     
  2. MetalBooger

    MetalBooger Member

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    I unfortunately have put dicky dawkin's little book far down my list of summer reads, but shouldnt we first define hell and understand it as a concept before we use it as a negative feature of Christianity?

    You can even look at it from two standpoints. In the context of spiritual and secular spheres.

    Lets take the hypothetical notion that much if not all of what we know about hell is a falsehood, meant as a tool by the church to subjugate people. Hell is for those who, without any sign of repentance and penance, which is essentially from my understanding, correcting ones mistakes, go about their lives in sin, rejecting God. Now we have to ask ourselves the purpose of this fear. Primarily hell then is to deter those of sin, and im sure as a good irish lad you know plenty about various forms of sin. The ten commandments, the seven deadly sins, et cetera. I cant name any examples from the core list that i just described above that are negative to the order and stability of society, instead they seem to in fact promote peaceful coexistence. Now ideally then, the idea of hell from a secular standpoint is just another social mechanism used to create a happy and ordered society.

    How is teaching right from wrong traumatizing? If you disobey society's conventions, i.e the golden rule, depending on the period at which you live, there is every legitimate reason in the world to expel you from society, perhaps through death. Why not, then, is it so terrible to reinforce this obedience, through(if one takes a secular stance) a noble lie to prevent anarchy and chaos?

    Do i need to explain the spiritual idea of hell?
     
  3. waif

    waif Member

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    *sigh*
    This is stupid. There is no reason to assume that just because someone holds a set of beliefs contrary to yours, they are stupid. You have to consider the effects of their upbringing - a religious upbringing can implant religion deeply even in extremely intelligent, critically-thinking people.
     
  4. Hallucinations

    Hallucinations Dracula has a moon base..

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    That's why I wrote "which unfortunately, there aren't many of". I don't recall saying once that every single religious person is a moron. In an earlier post I wrote:

    So it's not like I'm being irrational in what I'm saying. I'm speaking of the vast majority of American and European christians
     
  5. derek

    derek Grey Eminence

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    Secularism among intellectuals is very much a modern move. Hume was prominent back in the day, but other than that the list is not extensive.
     
  6. forbidden fruit

    forbidden fruit ...is always best

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    It's actually a really sad indictment on the moral stability of humankind that they should need, or more to the point, there are those who are aware that there is a need for the 'boogeyman' to reinforce the idea that basic laws of society should not be broken.

    It shouldn't be that you don't kill the next person you see because you might go to hell, it should be that you shouldn't kill the next person you see because you are robbing them & their loved ones; past, present & future of that persons continued existence.

    i.e. the focus of these well-meaning societal leashes is on the consequences for the perpetrator, not the victim.. but unfortunately this is probably too idealistic.
    Reality says humans will place more stock in consequences for themselves.
     
  7. derek

    derek Grey Eminence

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    Reality. Basic Laws of Society. Existence.

    What reality? What Society? What Existence?

    Care to qualify any of this?
     
  8. waif

    waif Member

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    *sigh*
    The vast majority.
    Ordinary quickness and keenness of mind. i.e. below average.
    The vast majority cannot be below average.

    "It's not like I'm being irrational in what I'm saying"
    After all, all you're doing is calling over a billion people you don't know stupid. Perfectly reasonable.
     
  9. Hallucinations

    Hallucinations Dracula has a moon base..

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    *Sigh*

    I hate to be pedantic but that's the entry for stupid, which the word moronic is colloquily associated with. We were talking about people being "moronic".

    So yes, I'm calling over a billion people moronic.
     
  10. forbidden fruit

    forbidden fruit ...is always best

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    I don't think I really need to given the audience & the context in which these terms appear. Do you?
     
  11. MetalBooger

    MetalBooger Member

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    So presumptuous, didnt Plato suggest that such presumptive behavior was contrary to knowing ones own ignorance? You cannot prove that God doesnt exist and you cannot prove without a doubt that Christianity is false, therefore shouldnt you, if you wish to be rational, seek at best an agnostic stance on religion? And admit you truly know the things you do not know?


    Quote: forbiddenfruit
    Im taking this from an atheist's view that the notion of Hell was falsely created as another mechanism of controlling people. This is not what i believe, however i cannot conjure another secular purpose of hell.
     
  12. The Poona of Peshwa

    The Poona of Peshwa Blood Glutton

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    I'm not sure that a few people sat around a table and decided to "create" hell to sway the masses. Humans innately want to punish evildoers. Aside from in modern secular liberal democracies punishing the wicked is a human universal, and even in these societies conservatives cry for the blood of criminals.

    Even if you realize that from a rational standpoint that executing pedophiles might not be the best way of dealing with the problem on a societal context, wouldn't you like to see them fry, wouldn't you even maybe wish there was a hell for them to go to? Religion was our first real stab at metaphysics and it's still the most widely held.
     
  13. MetalBooger

    MetalBooger Member

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    Im fairly sure of my own beliefs on the notion of Hell, but i agree that in the field of metaphysics Hell seems to be a fairly logical end to those abuse their souls and go to the "dark side" with full acknowledgment of their dirty deeds.
     
  14. The Poona of Peshwa

    The Poona of Peshwa Blood Glutton

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    My point was that I think you`re making a mistake in assuming that hell had to be invented for social engineering purposes if it doesn`t actually exist.
     
  15. MetalBooger

    MetalBooger Member

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    But the original idea was that Hell could be used secularly to create order, and why it would be beneficial and not traumatizing to teach people it. How it was created is not important, its end result is what i am interested in.
     
  16. The Poona of Peshwa

    The Poona of Peshwa Blood Glutton

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    If something as concrete as capitol punishment isn't an effective deterrent, I can't imagine that something as abstract as Hell would be, either. Especially since in this day and age people live as if there were no God, even if they claim otherwise. Very few people avoid crimes simply to avoid hellfire, and that's the way it should be. To be good only because of a fear of punishment is philosophically reprehensible.
     
  17. MetalBooger

    MetalBooger Member

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    To be good is because it is virtuous, the goal in both secular and religious spheres has been to pursue virtue over vice.. However if there were no consequences for acting evil, how could virtue be objectively the better than vice? The results of acting evil(which i guess is the harm of others and oneself), results in a punishment, lets say death or exile from society, there also negative consequences for society as a whole. If you apply this to the notion of an eternal soul, then wouldn't living a life of wrong doing result in a condemnation from the source of the soul, i.e God.

    Furthermore, many eastern theologies have notions of energy(spirit), believing that doing negative things results in a lowering of energy in ones body and soul, that not only are there biological consequences for wrong doing, but also internal spiritual chaos. The obvious goal for these belief systems is harmony and peace with your world, taking care of the poor and undeserving, meditation, prayer.
     
  18. razoredge

    razoredge Member

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    With the marriage question, the answer is there are alot of things people dont think about or take seriously enough before they get married that cause problems later on. When it comes to something as strong as religion, values, hopes and dreams if two people are standing on opposite sides of the fence they need to know enough to turn and walk away.
     
  19. WeAreTheLastMen

    WeAreTheLastMen Metacom

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    That's really lame.
     
  20. MetalBooger

    MetalBooger Member

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    What is lame is that 50% of marriages end in failure, Americans in particular have poor foresight in many things, be it personal finances, geopolitical policy, or in this case relationships.
     

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