This site is supported by the advertisements on it, please disable your AdBlocker so we can continue to provide you with the quality content you expect.

Welcome to Our Community

Wanting to join the rest of our members? Feel free to sign up today.

Is depression weakness? Should I be ashamed?

Discussion in 'Katatonia' started by LostinReverie, Dec 8, 2009.

  1. To Rival Heaven

    To Rival Heaven New Metal Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2009
    Messages:
    3
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Some interesting points MiniMoose, and I don't wish to derail the thread, but I would be very cautious about discouraging people against the choice that is out there by proclaiming CBT the best therapeutic approach for such issues as depression.

    I am wary with this 'best proven' statement as firstly CBT is currently having a lot of funding invested into it and so we're being exposed to far more published articles of its accomplishments when compared with the other approaches, and secondly, much of the research has been based on short-term studies ignoring relapse rates.

    But more importantly, with such a focus on correcting negative thought processes (whether with the aid of a book or a behavioural therapist) I would not agree that the client is less passive in directing themselves towards health, and worse, this takes the shift away from the development of a therapeutic relationship which is of such importance considering the majority of people are coming to these services with issues around relational impoverishment in its many forms. And, more often than not the way we learn to relate to others does go back to our early experiences and attachments, and therefore I wouldn't see the 'not talking about your childhood' (which many people will glady avoid as it can be so painful for them) a necessarily positive of CBT.

    In fact, what the research has shown consistently is that it is not even the therapeutic approach but rather the relationship between the client and counsellor/therapist that is the vital aspect of succesful work.

    So I'd suggest that if LostinReverie did decide to consider this option he shop around until he found the person that felt right for him.
     
  2. insidethefall

    insidethefall somewhere nowhere

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2003
    Messages:
    1,089
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Location:
    pittsburgh, pa
    Most of Jonas's lyrics deal with depression or negative inner feelings, I don't know how deep these run but he deals with it by writing beautiful lyrics that we all enjoy and can relate to...Finding ways to cope and grow is not shameful.

    Reading some of the posts on this probably helped me make a big decision, one that i've been stalling with for some time...hopefully I will grow as a person also, thank you!
     
  3. noctambulant

    noctambulant Member

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2009
    Messages:
    304
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    I know how does it feels,believe me. There's a reason why you're feeling depressed and you know what it is , just think about it and make an effort to accept it. Whatever it is,just don't deny it, confront it and find the best possible way to deal with the root of your depression.I felt the same way before and I found out that there was a reason but it was too painful to recognize it.
     
  4. AtmoBirdy

    AtmoBirdy New Metal Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2009
    Messages:
    24
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    have you tried exercising vigorously?
     
  5. Blackfield

    Blackfield IWillDieSoon

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2008
    Messages:
    155
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Location:
    Greece
    hi there!
    i'm a psychologist and i have to tell you that medicines is "old -fashion".there are new methods to defeat depression without pills.of course depression isn't weakness.i suggest you visit a psychologist.

    ps:i'm a psychologist with depression!! lol?
    soz 4 my english
     
  6. Jester-Race

    Jester-Race Member

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2006
    Messages:
    564
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Location:
    Kansas.
    QFT.

    Same here. So much shit I've been through but always look for the better, life is way too fucking short to worry about nonsense things that happen on a daily basis. Took years for me to get the realization that whatever happens, It'll all turn out okay.
     
  7. rrjii2000

    rrjii2000 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2002
    Messages:
    342
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Central WV, USA

    Thats some heavy shit, but a reality that we must embrace. Make the most out of your life, and maybe change the world in a small way that helps everyone.

    I too have spent many hours deliberating human existence, and our place in the multiverse. I never really have came up with any answers, just more questions. There are so many unknowns that we interact with every day, that we will never understand. However, what ever truth is out there, I believe Music (wave mechanics) is deeply embedded in our existence and will sooth and inspire us into eternity...
     
  8. MiniMoose

    MiniMoose Member

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2008
    Messages:
    529
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Interesting. :)

    CBT does not avoid the childhood years, but starts with it and after a while moves on. The therapeutic relationship is even more interesting, cause people who have been helped over the internet with just a chat program have had surprisingly good help from it. We don't know why yet, but at least some patient groups mostly people who suffer from depression like in this study I'm talking about now can benefit from not having to talk to a person too. What does that mean? Of course, this still needs more research..but the results have been very good. I feel you may focus a bit too much on the therapeutic relationship. (from now on called TR..hate spelling it..heh). I of course agree with you that it IS important...very, but the same point can be made about CBT..of course the therapeutic relationship is important. A bad one, can make people worse no matter what kind of therapy method.

    I don't understand your argument about the TR. CBT does establish a therapeutic relationship, but that is not always important. As long as a patient have the power to take more control himself, it's very often the best thing because it empowers them and yes, makes them less passive.

    I know several good examples from people with a mild depression who have gotten out of it with good friends, family and sometimes with a CBT book. But sure, that's just my experience..I can also talk for myself there, cause it helped me a lot too. It all depends though on how severe the depression is though.

    And yes, I'm not saying the traditional psychologist cannot help, but if you're going to follow research results (that's what every other medical treatment follows right?), CBT is the way to go.

    It's still a very important point you bring up, that a person should look around. CBT is just the tool, the therapist must still be someone who works well with the patient.

    There's a reason CBT has the best research results. Because it's easier to research. While traditional psychotherapy have had decades...it still don't show the improvement or results CBT does. It's not like CBT is way better, but it seems to be better result wise. With some mental illnesses they are eqeually good. But yes, this depends on the therapist and patient involved..so it's difficult to research. Btw, over time...how much money have gone into non-CBT research? MUCH more, so..there's a lot of data to compare with right? You don't think CBT research have a LOT of critical eyes pointed at them? Peer reviews is the point.

    I know what I would go to first. Just because there has been money going into CBT doesn't mean it's a scam, it's more likely that the results of research make people more enthusiastic.

    One thing of importance though is that severe mental disorders can't be helped by therapy at all it seems so far. So schizophrenia, severe deperssion, bipolar-disorder etc can't be helped by CBT nor traditional therapists.

    The attack of non-CBT therapists has been going on for a while now, and it's good that there's critical eyes out there. It's very important! But it also seems like they feel threatened by CBT (which is natural). Their points are very woolly and some don't even seem curious about what works and what doesn't. CBT is based on the same concept as the traditional psychotherapy, just tweaked so that it's more practical, you can look back at your childhood for a while, but you need to eventually focus on today and how to deal with the future.

    I only believe in good research (meta research especially) and what I see myself...of course, but I have to be even more critical to what I see myself. So far I see the CBT is the most effective treatment for depression minus severe depression today. Things will change in the future and better therapies will come. Progress is good. I welcome it. That doesn't mean I don't have a critical eye. That's why I bought a book about CBT, I have way more traditional psychology books. They're good too, but way less practical in use for the therapist and the patient..which empowers both, which can be in itself a important point to why CBT have better results? Either way...we can talk about this forever. :) We will just have to agree to disagree.

    LostinReverie..don't think too much about this discusstion, the most important thing is that you find help that you feel works for you. Both will work well for you as long as you find a good therapist. The point about CBT is just a suggestion from me, but don't spend a lot of time trying to find it if it isn't easy to find where you live.
     
  9. To Rival Heaven

    To Rival Heaven New Metal Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2009
    Messages:
    3
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Hey MiniMoose,

    I do believe CBT is clearly useful for all the reasons you have described, and i'm glad you and people you know have benefited from it. I just wanted to offer an alternative view of what constitutes an 'effective' therapy.

    My main worry with the following of the research is in the appropriateness of approaching its efficacy in the same way as you say other medical treatments. I do not think the medical model is suitable for a number of reasons, particularly because I don't see counselling/therapy as a medical procedure to be applied. The findings I believe you mention support outcome based notions of mental wellbeing which are rejected by many schools of therapy (such as humanistic psychology and many psychoanalytic schools). Rather than the application of techniques (such as cognitive behavioural) to the patient, what I hoped to highlight by my mentioning of the development of the TR is that (as you recognise) therapy can also be regarded as a joint interpersonal and creative process without the express aim of treating the patient to a particular definition of 'health' (a term also obviously carrying many social and political agendas).

    CBT certainly does seem to help people stop switching the light on and off 50 times a day, but I don't think it is always useful in helping people find what it is that is providing the electricity. A large part of the therapeutic process is seperating the unkown from the known, and we're not always aware before we start what it is exactly that we're struggling with. It often takes both time and hindsight. This is a position that sits very uncomfortably with our cultural obsession with quantifying objective targets. Only pressing the light switch twice a day now may tick that box, but focusing on reaching this can very well detract from seeing those inner conflicts that do tend, at least in my view, to find expression in other forms at some stage. For this reason I think many people find great relief in embracing the freedom of (for example, but not only) the psychoanalytic setting, and will need something deeper...

    However, I imagine that working in an acute psychiatric ward you're seeing therapeutic objectives within a framework that must give much consideration to the funding, and time limitations available to you?

    Overall I think it will be the acceptance of the multiplicity of therapies that will be in the best interest of those seeking help, rather than the crushing of diversity with a one-size-fits-all hemegony of an evidence based or outcome-oriented model (which I don't mean to sound like you were necessarily implying). And as you mention, having a critical eye is good as it sparks change and debate like this.

    I think you make a great point about people feeling threatened by CBT. I guess I cannot remain unbiased in this as I do have a wish to train psychoanalytically and of course CBT would be competition in terms of making a living!
     
  10. Noituudenaika

    Noituudenaika Katatonic

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2007
    Messages:
    661
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Location:
    Loving You Was Like Loving The Dead
    I think it is something you just have to learn to live with, like anything. If you had no leg you'd learn to walk without a leg.. If you have a chemical imbalance it will most likely be there forever.

    I am a bit anti-anti depressants.... so I will try not to rant about that, however I will say that exercise is good for depression, even though you obviously don't feel like doing any. It has helped me greatly. Doing hard exercise could help you too. It's free, healthy and doesn't give money to ************** companies that treat us like guinea pigs. Most likely better for you in the long run than meds. Some people NEED meds though, I understand that however It hink they are over prescribed.

    If you don't deal with the problems that are making you depressed, be it shitty place to live, stress, boredom, no job, no money etc, then how can it go away? Numbness through meds is not a cure but it can help you to clear your mind enough to deal with the real problems. I have a family history of depression and suicide yet somehow I function. I have been through extreme lows, you need to acknowledge their existence, find the signs that it is coming and work on a plan to halt a full on blackness before it overcomes you. Exercise like a fucking maniac... drink st johns wort tea, de-stress, use positive thinking, meditation, cognitive behavioural therapy (another +1 for this btw it helped me a lot)... whatever it takes.
     
  11. requiem

    requiem I bleed sir, but not killed

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2001
    Messages:
    3,920
    Likes Received:
    149
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    Australia
    It's interesting that apparently the less we have to work in dangerous conditions for 18 hours a day, or live at starvation level during famine and times of disease, or live out our lives as serfs or peasants, the more depressed we get. Is it because people prior to our age of excess and technology didn't have the luxury of being 'depressed'? I don't know, but studies have shown a clear increase in depression and prescription remedies, yet Western living standards are better than ever. We have an abundance of food, the internet, movies, tv, parks, leisure time, sports, good health, yet look how many people here alone are on anti-depressants.

    Could it be that we're finding our consumer lifestyles don't actually fulfill us? Then again, my grandfather working in a coal mine from age 14, 6 days a week from his Scottish village, probably didn't fulfill him either. So what's the deal? Was it just a matter of lack of diagnosis. What about depression during the Blitz or any other wartime experience? Look at mortality rates for mothers and their children during childbirth. There is but a fraction of that in our society today.

    Maybe there is no clear answer but it's interesting to think about. I don't suffer depression, but I find it fascinating as a subject.
     
  12. Cressida

    Cressida Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2006
    Messages:
    285
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    I agree with this guy. Plus start eating a little better and exercise whether it be lifting or just taking a walk trust me it helps.
     
  13. Noituudenaika

    Noituudenaika Katatonic

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2007
    Messages:
    661
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Location:
    Loving You Was Like Loving The Dead
    I often wonder the same thing myself.
     
  14. MiniMoose

    MiniMoose Member

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2008
    Messages:
    529
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Hey TRH! :)

    Good answer. I find this discussion very good. I'm apologize for answering so late. Christmas is demanding..heh. I wrote something over a week ago, but didn't get around to post it. I'll post it now..and hopefully it says what I want it to say. I'm in a hurry...(only had all day;)
    But going to see Eddie Izzard live...yay! (if you don't know who it is, then just overlook this..hehe)

    My answer will first focus on what I do and how we treat people over here.

    This is first of all very an interesting and positive discussion. Thanks for being open minded and critical at the same time. It's so much more easy to talk discuss this way. I might seem a bit over convinced at times, just because of what I've seen.

    I hope you train both traditional psychoanalycis and CBT. Is it that far apart in schools today? I mean, they use the same ground work ()or so I thought?) but focus a bit differently. I don't understand why it's not combined like it seems to be here in Norway. Of course, I'll have to look further into this cause I'm a male nurse and not a psychologist. (I've had two weeks on me to look into this..but have of course forgotten about it..errr)

    Well, actually we (the nurses) just observe and map out the problems and symptoms the patient has with the help of pychiatric doctors. If the patient is psychotic (like they often are when they come to us) we have to take safety measures so that either the patient gets hurt or we get hurt. When the psychiatric doctors are certrain of a diagnosis, the patient is sent to the ward that can best take care of the patient. We have 4 other wards: Crisis and trauma ward, Psychosis ward, Affective ward and drug/psychosis ward. People will after that be sent either home or to the institution that can hopefully help the best.

    The goal is always to get the patient on their feet so that they can handle their life either by themselves (the best option) or with the help of psychiatric day centers (with psychologists and/or psychiatric doctors) where they can go a couple of days a week or more..OR, they can get mobile nurses who travels to their home and help them with medication and some other practical help. Of course, using family and friends must also be a part of it if it's possible. It's often not possible sadly, because many patients that come to us have burned too many bridges.

    Psychiatry in Norway has more funding today than ever before. It doesn't mean it's great, but it's probably better here than most other places in the world..or so I hope. Research is the most important part as I see it. Norway don't focus enough on it! But thankfully when we look around the world...there's a lot of data to be collected and used.

    The psychiatric doctors we have now are the best the ward has ever had I think. They are fully updated on research all the time and only give medication when it's truly needed. Over-medication is not an issue anymore. We often have to change the medication of patients who have been treated by other wards, because it's either too much or just plain wrong. That part is a bit scary at times..cause it says so much about the doctors/psychologists out there...it's very tough work. It's people's lives they're trying to improve..mistakes can be fatal for more than one person. People seem to be often wrongly diagnosed. I would always try to get a second view on my diagnosis if I could.

    Apart from that it's good to see so many patients getting better. Some never gets better of course, but that's when they must get the best possible help to live their life. It can of course always get better.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    What is the point of this answer? Well, I just wanted to make you see a bit how things work over here. It's far from the full picture, but it's a glimpse.

    I guess what I want to understand is where we disagree. Cause we agree on most parts in general. My question is though:

    Can you put a percentage on how much of the therapy that should be focused on the problem (where the problems stems from) and how to get on with your life.(how to deal with the problem). This will of course vary a LOT, but still. It could be interesting to hear. I guess I'm negative in some sense to the focus on the problem and the too much time spent to talk about the problem and not the solution. WIthout it meaning too much I would spend 30 % on the problem and recognizing it and 70% on the solution..how to make the person get on with his or her's life. Make them see that talking about it only helps a bit, but doing something about the problem is what is the most important. This is just the way I think. and according to talks I've had around the issue.

    I know there are discussions about the positive and negative effects of a diagnosis. Do you believe a diagnosis can be important? Do you believe there are negative sides to it? If so, why?
     
  15. MiniMoose

    MiniMoose Member

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2008
    Messages:
    529
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    This is a good advice for most people. But it can't help everybody.
     
  16. Noituudenaika

    Noituudenaika Katatonic

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2007
    Messages:
    661
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Location:
    Loving You Was Like Loving The Dead
    A lot of people don't bother to try because when you feel like utter shit it is almost impossible to make yourself take a walk.
     
  17. Deathrow

    Deathrow Member

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2003
    Messages:
    99
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    6
    Location:
    Potsdam, Germany
    You guys should ALL read Eckhart Tolle´s "The Power Of Now".

    Most important book, I´ve ever read in my life. Nothing more to add!
     
  18. MiniMoose

    MiniMoose Member

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2008
    Messages:
    529
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Yes, depression or just feeling like shit has a tendency to make people paralyzed and isolated for a while. The mind is a powerful tool though..so most people can work through it by themselves or with a little help from someone who cares. But the typical thought that many have: "somebody must come and save me" or "something must happen to make this better" is not a thought that will help you much..or anything at all.
     
  19. Noituudenaika

    Noituudenaika Katatonic

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2007
    Messages:
    661
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Location:
    Loving You Was Like Loving The Dead
    I wish you could tell my brother this.. he just sits around at home all day and wonders why he feels like shit. WELL DO SOMETHING. If I did nothing all day of course life would feel meaningless, because it is. Even the shit I do, do all day is meaningless most of the time (work) but it keeps me distracted and busy so I don't have time to think about it.
     
  20. Alcapoth

    Alcapoth S t a r E

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2002
    Messages:
    1,561
    Likes Received:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Location:
    ON, Canada
    Wow, this is the greatest post I think I have ever read in my life! In fact, what you wrote is downright beautiful and true. Well said! It really really struck a chord with me and your words made me suddenly look at life in a different way....I mean, I'm one of the few as well who may be facing some sort of depression but am afraid to deal with it. In fact, I'm not sure whether it's being depressed or just being over sensitive. My sensitivity can be overbearing at times and it may be due to the fact I am an "emotional" pisces. I can be a train wreck...one second I am full of hope and joy the next I can be irritable, serious and/or sentimental about things. I guess this post itself just shows how such words can leave a lasting impact on me.

    Thing is, I like my sensitive side...it keeps me in touch with nature and the beauty this world seems to offer. But when I look around me, I feel I am alone...like I'm lost from everyone else around me. Searching endlessly to find that place that everyone searches for....that place of "belonging."

    Anyway, I'm trailing off here....but wow, this post just suddenly made me think a lot about my life. And to be frank...I think I have wasted a good few years because of my "highly" sensitive personality. Making friends has been painful over the years because the slightest criticism can be very painful to me. I'll never forget and will not be able to determine if one means well or wants to cause trouble.....

    Would these be symptoms of depression? I don't know...some friends and my family say there is no way I'm depressed but the thing is, they may just not realize how hard it is for me to make it look as though I am happy when inside there is a feeling of deep loneliness.

    Anyway, I sympathize with everyone in this thread that have some kind of depression.


    The simple answer to this is...LOVE!!! That's all anyone ever really needs. All this trash is garbage. If you can find someone in your life that fulfills you in a way that you rather spend majority of your time with THIS person as opposed to focusing all your attention on materialism, then that's what makes life so joyous. The sad thing is, love does not exist in this day and age. What we see in films like Titanic are just a fairytale. And yeah, unfortunately for most being in a relationship is not out of love for one another but rather a business settlement. I guess it makes sense....for one - who wants to be alone? And the other, who wants to be financially insecure?


    Arrrgh, life is just way toooo complicated. Sometimes I feel like I should have just been born a cat...or a bird. This life seems like it ain't for me. I don't blame some people for taking tgheir lives because this society we built for ourselves just doesn't work for everyone. It's ridiculous!!
     

Share This Page