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Kazrog: Recabinet Dynamics

Discussion in 'Backline' started by HOFX, Dec 17, 2013.

  1. HOFX

    HOFX Member

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    Yeah you're right, as I checked and LE456 seems to be the exception and is pre-amp only.
     
  2. drew_drummer

    drew_drummer Dancefap

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    Interesting, I didn't actually catch that!! Been using it for ages!! I tend to use just my own impulses though, which were taken through a Marshall's poweramp, so maybe that's why I never noticed.
     
  3. HOFX

    HOFX Member

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    I started doing the files and will post tomorrow, I have to go out for a bit. So far, with a quick test of TPA Res off and Recab Dyn off compared to both fully on is a massive difference. I think this will be an interesting post, and hopefully contribute to the discussion of how to get amp sims and IRs to the next step of realism.
     
  4. Spectivum

    Spectivum DisMember

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    interested in the findings. subscribed
     
  5. Wild Hades

    Wild Hades Clean channels are for pussies

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    There seems to be some confusion here...
    The Resonance control emulates the impedance interaction between the power amp and the speaker(s).
    This is clearly (i hope! :D) explained in the TPA-1 manual. You should crank up the Resonance knob ONLY if you're using a cabinet IR which has been captured using a solid state power amp! This will compensate the frequency response differences due to the lower output impedance of solid state power amps.
    If you're using an IR captured through a tube power amp, you should NOT use the resonance AT ALL (or just a little bit of it for slight tone shaping), or you're going to double the impedance interaction effect, as it is already "printed" into the IR!
    The resonance control has a HUGE impact on the overall TPA-1 response!

    To control the dynamic behavior of TPA-1, you should play with the Input Level (make sure the meters hit the red area, possibly avoiding the red lights to turn on), the Volume, the Bias, the Feedback and the Sagging controls!
     
  6. He's Dead, Jim

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    I should have mentioned this in my post, haha. Luckily, Recab is shot with solid state power amps so it qualifies. Kalthallen also has a solid and power option for each impulse, so it's good for testing as well.
     
  7. Kazrog

    Kazrog CEO/CTO, Kazrog, Inc.

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    FYI guys, I am following the thread. I'd be happy to provide more advice and insights, although at this point I'd have to hear audio clips to be able to make more specific suggestions. Interesting discussion, regardless.
     
  8. HOFX

    HOFX Member

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    Ok, here are the files and a screenshot of the settings. I used LE456 -> Ignite Amps TPA -> Recabinet 3.5 using stock IRs that come with it. LE456 settings were mostly left at 12 o'clock, TPA settings all default (except output level and resonance) and the IRs selected in Recab were to get a tone that had some low end beef and high end fizz to start with, so a full overall earthy tone that should reveal dynamics throughout the EQ spectrum - as opposed to a super high passed fizzy metal tone to start with.

    For each of the files, the TPA resonance knob was either {0 %, 50 %, 100 %} and Recab Dynamics knob {0 %, 50 %, 100 %}. Hopefully file names are explanatory of what the settings were. No level matching was done.
    01-RES-000-DYN-000.wav
    02-RES-050-DYN-000.wav
    03-RES-100-DYN-000.wav
    04-RES-000-DYN-050.wav
    05-RES-50-DYN-50.wav
    06-RES-100-DYN-050.wav
    07-RES-000-DYN-100.wav
    08-RES-050-DYN-100.wav
    09-RES-100-DYN-100.wav

    FX Chain settings:
    amp-settings.PNG

    I also did a null test (play both files together, invert phase on one of them) using 01-RES-000-DYN-000 as the base and comparing against 03-RES-100-DYN-000.wav and 07-RES-000-DYN-100.wav

    10-Resonance-Compare.wav
    11-Dynamics-Compare.wav
     
  9. HOFX

    HOFX Member

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    From Alu's post, I read the manual and understand the resonance knob function now, and can hear the effect that is described in the manual in the example files above. Although I think with the stock Recab impulses, going 100 % is a bit too far, but each to their own. I think it adds quite a lot to the feel chain, and being able to 'hype' the effect and push the static IR around helps.

    I think that the dynamics knob sounds as though it adds a bit more high end, and agree that it starts to scratch about 50 %. The null test results were surprisingly horrible, although I'm not sure what to take from it.

    I've been reading up on IRs, and I think where the dynamics should be introduced is between the amp and the cab. I think TPA is on the right track there.

    To preempt the person that says "but it's all about how it sound in the mix", here's a quick thing I threw together, based on the RES-50-DYN-00 settings, adjusted amp EQ, and some post EQ for fizz spikes, HP and LP.

    2013-CabIR-MixTest.wav

    Keen to hear the thoughts of others.

    I wonder if there's any one around with a kemper that would be keen to through the original guitar track through a similar sounding amp?
     
  10. MIAnn

    MIAnn Juniors Member

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    sounds great man!

    5153 pre-amp out>TPA-1>Recabinet has been my late night chain for a while now ;) love it!

    INTRIGUED at what Recab v4 is gonna consist of though!!
     
  11. He's Dead, Jim

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    I'd recommend changing those url's to http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com[etcetc] so people don't have to download them :)

    Especially working with my POD HD Pro amp models, I find that the dynamics sound best at 50-75%, because past that, at least for my amp models (and as Kazrog said, it depends heavily on what's being fed into it!), it gets too scratchy, and the thump in the cab low end turns into mush.

    You also have to bear in mind that, because Recabinet is simulating all the frequencies of the cab since it's a solid state power amp, and not over-representing any spectrum due to power tube coloration, it may perhaps require a bit more EQ work than normal. As RickyCigs, an avid POD user on SS.org said a couple of weeks ago, though, I'll take that over an IR that comes pre-colored any day of the week, because it lets you sculpt the tone to your liking.

    And the TPA resonance knob isn't just a one-off; I find that my POD's editing parameters, particularly the master volume (for obvious reasons, lolz), achieve the same sort of dynamics effect, as would an Axe FX or Kemper profile, and all of these things have forward-looking and backward-looking tendencies that can change the sound of something you edited just a couple of minutes ago. That's why I tend to start creating a tone with some reference in mind, since I know if I get something awesome between the POD and Recabinet, it can change pretty quickly based on my choices in one or the other. Not sure that's unique, but that's just my take-away.

    So tl;dr, I'm not totally surprised this particular combination of the LE456/TPA/Recab might not be to everyone's liking, as it's only the beginning of the tone-making process.

    Also, you used the low gain setting on the LePou :p And the volume knob on the TPA matters as much as the resonance, since it's essentially your Master. And the Green and Igor are a Marshall and Krank, IIRC- not bad cabs, but a little funky, particularly since you used the On Axis options. The Mesa Oversize sim in Recabinet is an easier solution, at least for me. I only ever have to do 1-2 cuts max, not counting HPF/LPF, to get it where I want it. Not criticizing the test, since it's both interesting and valuable, but I'd be interested to hear it with the Mesa or ENGL by comparison.
     
  12. Kazrog

    Kazrog CEO/CTO, Kazrog, Inc.

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    HOFX - I checked out the files, everything sounds as it should here IMO. High levels of speaker nonlinearity are cool depending on what you're going for, TBH I like all the variations.
     

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