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Liberalism

Discussion in 'The Philosopher' started by cthulufhtagn, Apr 29, 2005.

  1. cthulufhtagn

    cthulufhtagn stop. just....stop.

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    American Hertage Dictionary entry for liberalism: A political theory founded on the natural goodness of humans and the autonomy of the individual and favoring civil and political liberties, government by law with the consent of the governed, and protection from arbitrary authority

    I'm tired of the word "liberal" being used as a dirty word. I'm not defending any particular political party either, because all political parties are full of slimebags, but to me there's something to be said for social responsibility, in the sense that the government has a duty to protect the welfare (lower-case w) of its citizens. I'm not a socialist, but I don't think it's far-fetched to believe that people should have adequate health care, the environment should be protected, schools, fire/police departments, and libraries should have adequate funding, people should have a right to privacy, and equal rights should be shared by all. This requires taxes, but taxes are what you pay for the privilege of having maintained roads, safe drinking water, school for you or your children, public transportation, police...the list goes on. There is a great deal to be said for self-determination and individual responsibility, but to me, to make the argument that "poor people are poor because they're lazy" is to reject common sense. There is a limit to reasonable government assistance, but again, the government should have an interest in the welfare of all its citizens, rich and poor.

    Let's make this a respectful discussion, guys, and that goes for all sides. Please.
     
  2. speed

    speed Member

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    I'll say it again:

    Liberalism is the secular counterpoint to christianity.

    What better to offer the masses but secular material earth bound freedom instead of spiritual freedom and equality in a supposed afterlife? Earthly Bread instead of communion bread. Of course it is related to Chrisitianity, but such ideas are offered as a material non-spiritual alternative.
     
  3. Cythraul

    Cythraul Active Member

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    According to the moral precepts that liberals adhere to the above point does not prove true.
     
  4. cthulufhtagn

    cthulufhtagn stop. just....stop.

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    well it's just a dictionary definition, just wanted to illustrate how "liberal" doesn't, or shouldn't, denote a negative connotation...
     
  5. Kenneth R.

    Kenneth R. Cináed

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    i'm sorry but i keep seeing liberalism & christianity being used together. i'd like to see how the two are related at all.

    i agree with the first post.
     
  6. speed

    speed Member

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    I dont understand how you dont see how they are related? Have you any grasp of 16th-18th century history? GOD is somewhat correct, liberalism was inspired by both catholicism and protestanism.
     
  7. Kenneth R.

    Kenneth R. Cináed

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    i like to refer to that user as "Gallantry" to avoid confusion with the acronym he sees as a pun on the God i believe in.

    anyway, explain what you mean by liberalism?
    in my understanding, conservative is consistent with maintaining the old ways and traditions, whereas liberal is to seek the new as well as the "bigger better more" mentality. personally i don't think either one is "right", and that both have positive and negative aspects. i can see where you would categorize protestants as liberal, but i see no connection to Christianity in general.
     
  8. ProjectedBlack

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    That version of Liberalism is different then the version that we know of as today
     
  9. unknown

    unknown fuck ftagn

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    I find it interesting since Liberalism, as it is now, has distanced itself from many Christian core values (abortion rights, stem cell research, gay marriage)
     
  10. Demiurge

    Demiurge This user has no title

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    I don't consider those core values by any means.
     
  11. speed

    speed Member

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    yes classical liberalism and todays liberalism are two radically different things. In fact most conservative thought is classical liberal in origin.
     
  12. Kenneth R.

    Kenneth R. Cináed

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    fill me in on what this "modern" liberalism is?

    and yes, those aren't really core values of Christianity.
     
  13. Firehead

    Firehead CrusaderOfTheDowntrodden

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    Back to the original basis point of the first point. Liberals (left wing, democrats, etc.) are often labeled as the types that are the most interested in having a socialist (or communist, if you ask certain folks) society and government reign. The main issue of that statement is at it's core it is just another generalzation by Republicans to scare you into thinking that 45% of Americans paychecks will be taken away in tax money to go into the hands of some non-working, lazy ghetto rat with 12 kids. That may or may not be true, but that theory often leaves out the concept of having a struggling middle class, an option of which your average Republican is not too keen to accept.

    And, I actually like the idea of having people like Sean Hannity and that vulure-esque blond Ann Coultier being absolute jerks all in the name of "Conservatism" because all it does is swing anyone on the fence to the absolute opposite of what they think due to the fact that they act like such rude animals to anyone with a counterpoint in opinion.
     
  14. speed

    speed Member

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    classical liberalism is the idea everyone has natural rights, free trade, the primacy of the individual, free will etc.

    modern liberalism is what firehead explained it to be.

    Hence, it is really a confusing and vague cop-out to blame liberalism, instead of naming or addressing the real problem.
     
  15. unknown

    unknown fuck ftagn

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    got my words mixed around *shifty eyes*
     
  16. Justin S.

    Justin S. Member

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    You guys arent going to get anywhere throwing around terminology. You have to boil it down to concepts, but thats a huge can of worms... "Liberalism" has meant many different, even opposite, things over time. Nail down specifics, and then we can battle it out :)
     
  17. NeverIsForever

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    Granted, I never paid much attention in history class, but didn't "classical" liberalism become what we would today call conservatism?
     
  18. Justin S.

    Justin S. Member

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    No, in fact the terms are, at least in literal meaning, opposites. "Conservative" means to conserve, or to retain a system or ideology (ie, dogma). "Liberal" means to not be limited to orthodox or these dogmas. This doesnt mean that they are mutually exclusive in application or totality. A person could adopt a conservative aproach to one issue (ex: land usage), while looking for alternative methods in others (technology, ethics, etc). It really comes down to context; anyone that conserves to conserve, or changes things for the sake of change is incredibly short sighted.
     
  19. Kenneth R.

    Kenneth R. Cináed

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    agreed 1000%.
     
  20. no country for old wainds

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    Virtually every major Western political party is based around upon classical liberalism.
     

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