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Messages in music

Discussion in 'The Philosopher' started by cthulufhtagn, Apr 11, 2005.

  1. Fourka

    Fourka Forget it

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    It's part of the big plan... :Smug:
     
  2. Under The Oak

    Under The Oak Ens Causa Sui

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    This is still only your opinion that it has been a failure. It says something to me when it becomes universally acceptable for all kinds of different cultures to insult one specific religion. It says that religion must have something the others refuse to accept, and in my opinion, it may only appear like a failure because of all those who have tried relentlessly to discredit it, and STILL come up short. Christianity has been persecuted and hated for practically all of those 2,000 years, so your problem with it and everyone else's problem with it is nothing new.

    I agree there is a lot Christ would hate about this religion based around him today, but that doesn't make it a failure because of what people have misread into the Bible or taken out of context. If you believe in Satan, there's also nothing he really has to do to gain victory other than turn people away from Christianity, is there? I'm sure it seemed like a huge victory for the opposing forces when Christ was crucified, but say what you will - he didn't stay dead.

    Your posts seem to be nothing but "arguement by outrage". I'd hope you agree that anything in mankind's hands is capable of immense and varying degrees of perversion. Why do you think there are so many denominations of Christianity these days? I think it would do much more for the religion if all believers united, but I'm just pointing out that we don't all agree with what has been done "in the name of God", because there are things done blasphemously in his name.

    What do you think we'd learn or gain from it if Christ just suddenly came back said, "hey guys you were all wrong" and pointed everyone in the right direction? Would we all believe it and change? No, because people put themselves foremost in nearly everything, and imagine the chaos it would bring with all the anti-religious fanatics such as yourself challenging something like that. This world has not been a cesspool since he left because of him, it was already that way before he came, and it stayed that way since some people are unwilling to submit to anything outside themselves.

    Christ never promised to make everything happy and holy like some churches might tell you today. He clearly said in the Bible, "I come not to bring peace, but a sword". He knew his teachings were so radical that they would turn people against each other, even over such minor details. But that's what happens when people misunderstand something so powerful. The ideas of Socialism are powerful and though they're a bit euphoric, they obviously made an impact in different ways. When they were used in harmful ways, like as an agenda for exterminating the Jews, thats a perfect example of something powerful being misunderstood and misused. It doesn't change the core values of Socialism, but it only associates an ugly alternative with it. Look beyond that one outcome to the source and measure it up to see if it lined up with the original teachings.
     
  3. Darth Kur

    Darth Kur Misanthropic Naysayer

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    Bullshit, prove it. The whole resurrection hype was all stolen from, at then, contemporary pagan religions. Accept it, jesus didn't die for you...jesus DIED.

    You seem so proud of being submissive. It's sickening to see all you x-tains in a competitive frenzy to see who can crawl like a worm lower then the next.
    Fine, die groveling on your knees like a coward while we all stand proud and victorious with our heads held high.

     
  4. Under The Oak

    Under The Oak Ens Causa Sui

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    And what pagan religions were these? I've heard all the crap about Horus, Osiris, Mithras, and the other gods who Jesus was supposedly "stolen" from, but no conclusive evidence has ever been pulled up to back those claims. I don't have to prove what I believe in any more than you have to talk out your ass about how you hate anything related to faith or dependence on anything other than yourself. If you're genuinely interested in seeing the overwhelming evidence of Christ's existence as well as resurrection, I'll provide some sources. If you refuse to keep an open mind because it challenges your "superiority"/self-deity complex, then whats the use?

    It's sickening for me to see people run around like they have control and direction over their lives too. If you're so opposed to religious beliefs and adament in your views, please share with us your unlimited knowledge of all things existential and metaphysical. The mere fact that I'm debating this with you is not something a groveling, submissive fool would do. I'm as interested in the search for truth as the next man, but I'm evaluating different ways and concepts too.

    Until I find something that crushes the basis of Christianity, I will continue to investigate it's claims and seek to live by Christ's example. What is important most to me is balancing both sides of the arguement. I used to be an atheist at one time, but when I actually sought out what answers Christians would give to challenging questions, they made sense. I'm not saying there are answers to all the tough questions, yet it seems this faith has continually been interrogated, prosecuted, and it was withstood the test of 2,000 years now. Not only that, but with roots in Judaism, it has existed for much longer.

    You can call me a fool for believing in a carpenter who lived two thousand years ago, but mind what you're saying. Every challenge brought up against Christianity these days is nothing different, and it has been responded to and debated for decades. The only problem is that since some people are so stubborn and think so differently, no concrete conclusions have been made, but atheists tend to call it a draw or a failure because sometimes we don't give the strictly rational and unquestionable answers they're looking for. Will I trust a book and belief system that has imparted knowledge and wisdom for well over two millenia now, or will I trust you who has spent probably less than four decades on this earth?

    I adhere to the words of Socrates when he said "the unexamined life is not worth living". From what I have examined of life thus far, everyone seems unhappy but hopeful. We all seek the same thing - truth. I am exploring my choices, but I'm not about to give up on something because it seems to be "foolish" to some people in particular. Coming from your standpoint, Christians used to laugh at atheists and call their ideas "foolish". The question is, do you have enough faith in yourself or mankind to believe we can really come to the truth on our own? You certainly don't have much faith in humanity if you seem to think so many have gone into blind lunacy. So if you enjoy challenging my beliefs, where does yours end up?
     
  5. speed

    speed Member

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    Well it is a proven fact that early christianity accepted many of religious beliefs and practices of the pagans; even the holy trinity was stolen from the cult of Cybele. For god sakes do a little reading on this. Resurrection (Isis), transubstantantiation (Dionysius), the virgin birth (Mithras), ive listed Christian ideas and the gods they stole from.

    And just because a religion has endured no matter how perverted is a pretty pathetic excuse, especially since Christ has not lived up to any of his predictions, and his followers have chosen not to follow his many words of wisdom.

    Have you read the bible? Did you know scholars have a good idea of the Quelle bible--or the actual words of this lunatic. And most of the references to the Quelle bible are related to the apocalypse and Jesus being the son on of man going to return to save the world from sin.

    And what is so special about his teachings? One would find far more humane and spiritual teachings in Buddhism, Taoism, and Hinduism. One would find a structured, legalistic, and evolved form of monotheism in Islam. When one gets right down to it and examines the theological arguments of Christianity, one is very much underwhelmed. My god one of the major problems in ancient times for Christianity was how trivial and amateur the Christian religion was compared to the great ancient schools of philosophy.
     
  6. Kenneth R.

    Kenneth R. Cináed

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    there is no need to be lower than any other. as a christian, being strong and defensive of those who cannot defend themselves sets an example for others. if they see strength, they may emulate it. the difference is, we see that strength as coming from faith and from God, wheras you probably see strength solely as your own brute force.
     
  7. Kenneth R.

    Kenneth R. Cináed

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    you've hardly proven anything beyond commonly accepted social "facts" which have yet to be given any grounded evidence.

    if i tell you a story of how i fell and cut my knee, and you have experienced a similar thing, does this mean i have stolen your story? such evidence is baseless. philosophy has often sought to explain and wonder the workings of the universe, but it never presumes to present more than possible routes of travel, never conclusive dictates. if it does, it is no longer philosophical and becomes something else entirely.
     
  8. Darth Kur

    Darth Kur Misanthropic Naysayer

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    The post by Speed after yours has saved me from going an a very lengthy diatribe. Sadly from the expected response of Silent Song I have to say that all you x-tians are the same. You can be presented with a library's worth of information but the depth of your brainwashing prevents you from accepting reality.
    The information posted by Speed is FACT. Even you can't deny that, since time began, people have been borrowing ideas from each other in every aspect of life. For it is much easier to use elements from already established things than to invent them from nothing on your own. This happens everywhere, from music (Led Zeppelin stealing tons of shit from previously blues bands), to movies (one year two movies about volcanoes, tornadoes, disasters, ect), TV shows (all this "reality" show garbage), car manufacturers (each and every year they all copy each other. It's a proven fact that religions either borrowed certain aspects of others or just absorbed them. X-tianity is guilty of BOTH. The only difference is the sick and sad fact it, along with a few others, have lingered on for so long.
    You people need to get of your "spiritual" high horses and accept reality.
    As for my faith in humanity, or more accurately, my lack thereof, I feel it's obvious that by the actions of people it is all to clear that the majority of them posses a sub-par intellect. Just read throughout history our supposed progress and that should be evident enough to prove my statement. The idiots on this planet can't seem to be able to look beyond their petty concerns and issues. Also, it seems apparent that some groups are a lot less capable of intellectual pursuits than others, thusly bogging down the ones that can by having to worry about their "neighbors" actions. Sure, it would be wonderful to live in utopian blissful harmony with each other, working towards a common goal but I don't ever see that happening.
    So, you ask, where does that leave me? I stand vigilant and apart from the heard. I associate with the masses as little as humanly possible. I watch my back and those who I have personal concern of. As for the idiotic multitude, I care not if they blow the fuck out of each other as long as I'm not caught up in it all. And if so, any adversary shall be dealt with appropriately.
     
  9. Under The Oak

    Under The Oak Ens Causa Sui

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    Is it proven? Of course there will be similarities, because all ideas of a deity must have a kind of 'formula' or else it doesn't qualify for a deity, and the same goes for every religious belief. Isis was not resurrected, she resurrected Osiris, who was her lover, and she basically just put the pieces back together - like Frankenstein. Transubstantiation in the Catholic sense is one I agree was borrowed, but most Christians do not believe the wine and bread actually become flesh and blood, nor does the Bible teach it. In the Mithraic scriptures, it says nothing about being born of a virgin, but that Mithras "wearing his Phrygian cap, issues forth from the rocky mass. As yet only his bare torso is visible. In each hand he raises aloft a lighted torch and, as an unusual detail, red flames shoot out all around him from the petra genetrix." Mithra was born an adult, and not of a virgin, but out of a solid rock, as most scholars will tell you.

    I'm not going to insult these other religions, but Islam has it's errancies too. The Koran teaches to kill all infidels who reject Allah, but then it goes about discussing how they should welcome, accept and love those who convert to Islam. How will you give an enemy time to change if you're ordered to do this to every one of them who disbelieves:

    Sounds very humane, evolved and legalistic to me alright. It's from chapter two of The Cow in the Koran if you so desire to look it up. I look forward to hearing more "facts" too. :)
     
  10. Darth Kur

    Darth Kur Misanthropic Naysayer

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    Don't sound so fucking smug or your pretend god might just smite you.
    I saved the following text from some one else's post, can't recall who, but it contains a lot of different references on the pagan roots of x-tianity.
    And even if none influenced the dust ridden buggerers that started this abortion you call a religion it doesn't lend to it's merit one damn bit. And seriously, what does a belief system from a foreign land have in common with any of you? Unless, of coarse you descended or are located in the middle east region. How can an alien cultures thought process of millennia ago to boot have anything to do American or European culture? And please don't come back with any lame bible quote of "the message" being first for the jews then the gentile. That's just a way of broadening the systems control base.


    Quoted material:
    Well I'll just name a few parallels with pagan religions. You can go search about the gods and where they're from yourself.

    Jesus' divine birth is based upon Danae, Melanippe, Auge, Attis, Antiope, Dionysus, Zoroaster.

    His walking on water is based on Poseidon riding his chariot over water and also on Osiris. His turning water to wine is based on Dionysius changing water to wine.

    His resurrection is based on Attis and Mithras, who both died and got resurrected 3 days later...Around the same time as Easter.

    Attis' worshipers at a sacramental meal of bread and wine. The wine represented the God's blood; the bread became the body of the savoir.

    Every year at first minute of December 25th the temple of Mithras was lit with candles, priests in in white garments celebrated the birth of the Son of God and boys burned incense. Mithras was born in a cave, on December 25th, of a virgin mother. He came from heaven to be born as a man, to redeem men from their sin. He was known as "Savior," "Son of God," "Redeemer," and "Lamb of God."

    Heracles(also known as Hercules) was born to a mortal mother and was Son of Zeus. He was sacrificed on Spring Equinox(also known as Easter or Spring Solstice).

    Osiris was betrayed by Typhon, crucified between two thieves on the 17th day of the month of Athyr. Buried in a tomb from which he arose on the third day (19th Athyr) and was resurrected.

    Osiris' suffering, death, and resurrection celebrated each year by His disciples on the Vernal Equinox -- Easter.

    Osiris was born of the virgin Isis-Meri on December 25th in a cave / manger, with his birth announced by a star and attended by three wise men

    As we've come to notice, many of the pagan religions are even parallel. This is because paganism was brought from the Asia minor region and spread amongst Europe etc and the names were changed.
     
  11. speed

    speed Member

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    thanks darth kur, you have done some research.


    silent song, I find it highly amusing you are questioning the stories of paganism and stories in general as not being fact, when your whole religion is based on stories written at least a generation after the fact, and stories written about a man it has not been proven by any historical evidence actually existed.

    Where do you get off? And if you want to argue theology, please I would prefer it. Then we can finish this nonsense.
     
  12. Kenneth R.

    Kenneth R. Cináed

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    i would not presume to question other religions that i know less about. i believe in christ and his teachings and as such, i aspire to follow them.

    darth, amidst all your hot air all you've done is present so-called "facts". did you not read my post? here it is again for you:

    you've hardly proven anything beyond commonly accepted social "facts" which have yet to be given any grounded evidence.

    if i tell you a story of how i fell and cut my knee, and you have experienced a similar thing, does this mean i have stolen your story? such evidence is baseless. philosophy has often sought to explain and wonder the workings of the universe, but it never presumes to present more than possible routes of travel, never conclusive dictates. if it does, it is no longer philosophical and becomes something else entirely.


    what we must remember is that a "fact" is not interchangeable with truth. "facts" are agreed upon opinions held by those who are trusted in their knowledge of the subject, or commonly held opinions. they are nothing more than opinions. not all opinions are fact, of course. but you put too much value on "facts" when in reality, as shown above in italic, they cannot prove a damn thing in this case. :)
     
  13. speed

    speed Member

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    Silent Song read my last post please, I think I addressed your question.
     
  14. Kenneth R.

    Kenneth R. Cináed

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    i already answered that. i'm starting to think most people aren't reading anything but their own posts anymore. but i guess that comes with the territory of philosophical debate. :lol:

    i would not presume to question other religions that i know less about. i believe in christ and his teachings and as such, i aspire to follow them. i have not once said a negative word against paganism or any other religion. i simply don't believe in them. you're free to believe in whatever you see as right, and you should.
     
  15. speed

    speed Member

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    you are missing the point, wihout accepting or understanding these pagan influences on Christianity, you woulth therefore know nothing about Christianity and how it evolved, its mythology etc. Thus how can you understand your own religion, and its supposed facts?
     
  16. speed

    speed Member

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    SO just what is your point other than I am outraged? You havent made or defended any points as far as I can tell other than recognizing my outrage.
     
  17. Under The Oak

    Under The Oak Ens Causa Sui

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    No intention to sound smug, especially since I didn't bring up the old and tired complaint of Christianity being based on ancient religions. This belief is in common with me because I find it relevant for life today and it is my faith. Don't ask such a ridiculous question when you surely knew the answer already. Just as you believe we're all blind and stupid, I believe many, including yourself, are greatly misinformed about all these "religion-destroying" rumors. Now let's have a look at some of these ones below...

    Firstly, this is a very generic statement, but I assume by "divine birth" it means virgin conception. Each of those listed have multiple accounts for their births, and most are shady in several areas. The biggest arguement against those is that they were not conceived of a virgin. A virgin is someone who hasn't had sex, and for a virgin to conceive would mean she is still a virgin afterwards. In the Bible it says Mary was simply "found to be with child" by the Holy Spirit, but in many of the other cases, Zeus or another deity has sexual intercourse with the virgin. That negates practically all of those examples then, also throwing out Buddha, Krishna, and several others.

    Closest thing I heard about Poseidon is that he gave Euphemus gift of running across water, with only his toes touching. Also, Osiris never walked on water, don't believe all the sourceless text you read online or in books. Horus died in the water when he was fished out by the crocodile who brought him back to Isis, but thats the closest thing. Dionysus chaning water to wine is not present in the legends, and many secular scholars would probably also love to know where people pull that from. Even so, some of the sources on Dionysus come well after the Gospels.

    Totally agree with the Easter and Christmas dates being pagan, but none of us actually believe those dates are the legitimate dates. They are merely representative days for celebration and remembrance, nothing more. Mithras was never recorded dying or being buried in the Mithraic scriptures/texts we have, and I've read several books saying there is strangely enough - no death of Mithras we have found. Attis also was not seen as a savior, and the closest we get is with Damascius writing, who live from 480-550 AD. Still, he only wrote of a dream he had that Attis was the "salvation from Hades".

    I dispelled the virgin mother part before, and it's more fitting to say Mithras was born OF a cave, since he formed out of rock. Then that pretty much leaves December 25th, which is admittedly a pagan holiday that is not found anywhere in the Bible, and those names. Mithra was mostly seen as a mediator between the good and evil gods of Zoroaster, and none of the Mithraic studies record him having any of those titles, other than the tale of Mithras having a lion for a companion, but thats still a stretch to Christ being the "Lion of Judah".

    Good for Heracles, but so what? This has least relevance, because it doesn't imply she was a virgin mother, and Easter, as I've already said, is not something Christianity holds as undeniable truth, because none of us believe it is the actual date.

    Some scholars connect Osiris with Orion, but we do not know anything about wise men or a star in the east. As noted before, Osiris was murdered, torn to pieces, cast into water, and fished out by the crocodile who returned his pieces to Isis to be re-assembled. Like Frankenstein. I would not exactly call that a resurrection similar to Christ's, nor does it fit with any of the other "dying/rising gods" of mythology. I've heard nothing about his disciples, but only of "the 72" enemies who plotted against him with Set and arranged his demise.

    You can post more copycat myths if you want to, but I won't bother to attempt and refute any more of them. All I've tried to do with this post is show that you need to balance the sources you take from. I don't believe much of what I read unless I find a good deal of support for it and agreement from multiple parties, and this goes for religious and anti-religious propaganda.
     
  18. speed

    speed Member

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    You have just ^^^ substantiated everything DarthKur stated. God damn your not that smart are you? The facts or details of each myth you mention are only slightly off--thus proving their inspiration for the many myths and ideas of Christianity.
    Dont you get it? You have just discovered how startingly similar all these myths were to Christianity, and yet you think Christianity created all of these ideas out of scratch? And to top things off, most of these ideas and myths were added on after Christ lived to attract pagans, yet they have been accepted or incorporated into the Gospels and Church tradition.

    Every middle eastern religion copied and borrowed from their neighbors. Mohammed was supposedly taught by a christian monk who lived in a cave. He incorporated the ideas of Christianity and brought them back to earth.
     
  19. Under The Oak

    Under The Oak Ens Causa Sui

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    Wow, you think there were no differences there? I guess as long as it's not a total black and white contrast, it's perfectly similar by your definition. Let's see, I explained how most of the virgin births weren't actually virgin births, I showed how the resurrection accounts of other deities are either false or very different, and you think that PROVES Christianity copied from them??? Similarities don't account for stolen ideas, especially in such vague situations like "he used the title 'lord of lords'" and such.

    Let me explain something to you: I don't pretend all of Christianity is original and invented from scratch. I'm sure there were accounts of miracles and magicians and crap long before Christ, but the importance to me is not what predates what or what if this was influenced by that - I believe in these things because I hold them to be true to life based on my own experiences. If you don't, then it's your choice, but don't tell me I'm an idiot for having faith in something that may not sound 100% unique to you, because I can guarantee you atheism has ALWAYS been passed down for every man who thought "hey, I don't want to be accountable for who I am, so I'll choose not to believe in any god!".

    It is so much harder to have trust in something than it is to cast doubt on it. I was enjoying a mature discussion here until you and Darth-Kur started with your "God damn you're not that smart are you?" and other baseless insults aimed at me only for not recognizing your "truth" alone.
     
  20. speed

    speed Member

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    yes perhaps I was a but harsh, and I offer my apologies for that. I love to argue. Still you have really missed the point. I feel like I am talking to a wall. I am still more than confused how you cannot see the similarities, inspiration, and downright combining of the two religions? For god sakes man, even the churches were converted pagan temples.

    It doesnt mean Christianity is paganism; it means much of Christianity was inspired and drawn from pagan ideas not jewish ones. Is that so horrible? Every religion has vestiges of earlier religions.
     

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