This site is supported by the advertisements on it, please disable your AdBlocker so we can continue to provide you with the quality content you expect.

Welcome to Our Community

Wanting to join the rest of our members? Feel free to sign up today.

P2P TORRENTS AND THE EVIL THEY DO

Discussion in 'ProgPower USA' started by MEGALOUD, Nov 6, 2007.

  1. Cheiron

    Cheiron Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2006
    Messages:
    5,645
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    38
    I'm more likely to listen to this guy:

    http://freakonomics.blogs.nytimes.c...-of-the-music-industry-a-freakonomics-quorum/

     
  2. MEGALOUD

    MEGALOUD The Nightmare Has Begun..

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2005
    Messages:
    2,866
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Location:
    Minneapolis/St. Paul,MN (The Twin Cities)
    Hey here is some facts you all should know, While I know I should just shut up and not fuel the fire on this issue, I still seem to have this need to make a point that seems not to have been made, why? I don't really know, it's probably pointless.

    I work at this business of music on every possible level, I work exceptionally hard at it everyday, and it's afforded me some success that I'm proud of.

    In the face of the changing climate I decided to follow suit and do with many other labels are doing to try and save money, Nuclear Blast was doing it so I thought, hey probably a good idea.

    Nightmare decided to do Digital promotion 4 months ago, to help us save money from mailing costs and physical cd's and promotional costs associated with physical mailings like paying people to put the mailings together etc.
    We put these on a secure ftp site and told key media people about them
    and also some key street teamers.

    Nightmare released 6 cd's from June to October, unfortunately the amount of reviews we received on these discs was much declined. Many of the media either have not downloaded them or forgot about the releases without a physical reminder in front of them. We received very few reviews, and even fewer interviews. Physical promotion while a bit behind was sent out but only to 1/3 of the places we were sending to before.

    It is quite obvious to me now as I look closely by the names of the files found on the torrents that "OUR" files were used and uploaded to these torrents, some arguments of PROMOTIONAL VALUE of these torrents is now about to be put to extreme shame.

    First of all Nightmare is a nitch label, I'm in this because I love it this form of music, but the perception is that the label is much bigger and sells much more. Reality check time.....
    Last year Nightmare releases averaged 800 physical copies actually sold per album (some less and some more but averaged out over all our releases this number represents about what we saw across the board).
    most of these at distributor prices $6 to $7
    Digital pay download sites brought in approx. $50 - $350 for the year per title depending.
    That was an average of ruffly $5500 gross per album, of the 10 albums we released in 2006.

    Average cost per album to put out;
    *$1600 manufacturing 1000 retail and 300 promotional CD's (1300 quantity)
    *$3000 promotional (ad's, banners, sampler cd's, free copies of CD's, as
    promotional and givaways, mailing costs, and manpower)
    *$500 shipping to distribution outlets.

    Nightmare's deals with bands is a bit different, we don't pay advances, but we pay artists royalties from the very first CD sold. So ad that in
    and the label takes a hit now for for 20% of that above gross $1100 (actually more because we pay 50% on pay downloads.

    That $1100 goes toward what is probably at least $7,000 to $10,000 recording and artwork bill the band has incurred in making the album.
    Along with advances from other territories like Germany and Japan (if) those are part of the equation.

    AVERAGE TAKE IN 2006 FOR NIGHTMARE RECORDS PER ALBUM -$ 700
    (NEGATIVE $700)

    TO AD TO THIS WONDERFUL FIGURE we tried some new things.
    As a direct response to trying to cut costs to market and promote titles, we may have shot ourselves in the foot. All of our newest releases are on the torrents and in the last 6 releases we put out.
    In the last 4 months have each sold less than 100 copies each, and many of those were purchased at Prog-power. And most of them are downloaded about 800 times each torrent, multiplied by how many?

    I KNOW Nightmare releases don't suck, and that the quality of them is very high. And yet...the try before you buyers are obviously not buying them! The download -vs- actual sales percentages should make my point here.

    Does this illustrate how Torrents DON'T help?
    Does this illustrate how indie labels are trying to help bands and loosing money?
    Does this illustrate how the act of ILLEGAL DOWNLOADING is wrong and hurtful to what we as musicians and also labels are trying to provide for the musical fan/consumer?

    I personally have had guys come up to me at a show, and say I loved the album, I downloaded it and listen to it all the time, it's brilliant. When I asked where he downloaded it thinking perhaps itunes or something of that nature,
    he said a file sharing sites name.

    In closing I'd just like to say...
    It's obviously not just about the money to musicians / bands and most labels.
    As professional musicians, Yes we love what we do....but why should we do it anymore if fans and those that claim to enjoy what we do, show us such utter disrespect for doing it by downloading full albums, enjoying them, and NOT buying them? Granted this action is not indicative of all music lovers, Granted it's likely not done by much of this community ie; the prog power audience. But I have to say, the numbers above are rather sobering to me personally, and their just not giving me that warm and fuzzy feeling.



    ----
     
  3. DAVETHEMETALGUY

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2002
    Messages:
    1,208
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Location:
    TUSCALOOSA, ALABAMA
  4. Ascension

    Ascension New Metal Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2002
    Messages:
    1,828
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    The Last Frontier

    umm...err...l would like to say...uuhh...nevermind :heh:
     
  5. Greykiller

    Greykiller Shoot down the UFO's!

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2004
    Messages:
    648
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Finally some data posted that we can use as a debate point!

    From http://www.ultimatemetal.com/forum/progpower-usa/347886-2007-album-stats-analysis-awesome-stuff-inside.html
    This thread, we can see the number of metal titles released per year, from 1968 to 2005.

    As you can see from the totals below, the numbers show a steady increase of 100-200 more albums a year, until 2000 to 2005, where the number of new releases per year suddenly jumped to about 350!

    This was, of course, the same time downloading became widespread. You have to think that there is more than just a casual connection between these two pieces of data!

    2005-3872
    2004-3549
    2003-3042
    2002-2681
    2001-2258
    2000-1939
    1999-1820
    1998-1514
    1997-1338
    1996-1235
    1995-1087
    1994-901
    1993-766
    1992-656
    1991-566
    1990-530
    1989-515
    1988-482
    1987-393
    1986-416
    1985-360
    1984-286
    1983-180
    1982-127
    1981-86
     
  6. PurpleCrayonWriter

    PurpleCrayonWriter Just a Kid at Heart

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2006
    Messages:
    1,088
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Location:
    Grand Rapids, Michigan
    I'm not sure I'm following you.

    Are you still trying to justify downloading, even after Lance's post above? Speaking of which, what about Lance's post? Wasn't there enough data in it for you? You wrote in a previous post that you have yet to see any verifiable data from a record label that proves downloading hurts their business.

    Are you saying in this post that you disbelieve Lance? Or that you think he's exaggerating? Or overreacting?


    I don't see any connection. Maybe I'm missing something. But an increase in downloading concomitant with an increase in the number of releases per year doesn't seem to be connected at all. If anything it indicates more bands and labels are trying to make it. It could indicate that there's too much music out there and that, combined with downloading, is impacting the music industry. It could indicate that...hell, I don't know.

    But I'm not sure you can make a causal connection between those sets of figures and the impact of downloading on the recording industry. They seem to be two separate issues.


    I think many here are combining two issues: (1) a faltering music industry, and (2) the impact of downloading on labels. The music industry is hurting. No doubt about it. Part of the reason is because a lot of music sucks. Turn on the radio in any part of the country -- or take a look at Best Buy's Top 20 lists -- and you'll know it's true. There's a lot of crap out there. So people aren't buying as much of it. Even legitimate downloads via iTunes have affected the music industry. People buy one or two tracks and call it good. (Because that's about all there is that's good on many albums today.) So album sales are down.

    But that's not what this thread is about. It's about guys like Lance who are being adversely affected by illegal downloads.

    We've talked in circles for days. There are well over 4,000 viewers of this thread as of today's date. Some still argue downloading is fine and that there's no evidence to support its affect on record labels.

    But those who make such an argument do so thinking of the music industry as a whole. They justify downloading by thinking either (a) the industry is so big, surely a few downloads can't hurt it, or (b) those fat cat record labels deserve to have it stuck to them.

    What people don't seem to get is that Lance has been telling you flat-out, no-holds-barred, straight-from-the-heart that illegal downloads have affected his label tremendously, in very definite ways. His last post included precise facts and figures to indicate sales are down and downloads are up. Would more people have purchased Lance's CDs if they hadn't downloaded them? There's no way to prove it shy of asking each person (and getting an honest answer!). But I daresay Lance hasn't mis-read the data or drawn any wild conclusions.

    So it's possible illegal downloads won't catch up to, say, Sony or Rhino or Warner Brothers. They may only impact those labels in minor ways.

    But illegal downloads DO affect smaller independent labels. It's a matter of scale. A big label can absorb a few thousand downloads when they sell millions of CDs. But a small, independent label cannot absorb even a few hundred illegal downloads -- not without going out of business.

    It's not a matter of what you think. It's a matter of cold, hard fact.

    If you choose not to believe facts, that's up to you. But please don't keep trying to justify illegal downloads. It just makes you look silly.
     
  7. skyrefuge

    skyrefuge Member

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2002
    Messages:
    1,318
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Location:
    Suburban Chicago, USA
    Lance's post was awesome. It was great to see some real numbers about record sales from a label like his.

    But still, it did nothing to prove that downloading hurts his business. You admit yourself that the only way to prove this would be to ask each person downloading his albums if they would have bought them if the download-for-free option was not available. (and then, those numbers would have to outweigh any "I wouldn't have bought it if I couldn't have sampled the whole thing first" numbers). And it's really difficult to obtain data like that. That's why this discussion goes on and on, because no data has EVER really been presented that can show the effects of downloading (positive or negative) in a definitive way. That allows everyone to make endless speculations (some more reasonable than others), but it's hard to show someone that they're definitively wrong.

    Erm....

    Neil
     
  8. Year1Entertainment

    Year1Entertainment New Metal Member

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2007
    Messages:
    2
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Alright, so at least people are talking about it. What a lot of fans of bands don't know is the actual in's and out's of an artist signing a contract with a record label.

    For instance. Generally (and this is not in all cases) when an artist signs a contract they can sometimes get what's known as an advancement. This is an amount of money that the label gives to the artist to help them, during the time they are awaiting an album to be released. Generally for an indie artist the amount of $50-$100k is what they'll see as the (initial) advancement.

    A lot of money for a starving group of artists right off the bat right?

    So let's tally some things up.

    Let's say you just got signed. (For simplicity, we'll use easy numbers)

    Your band get's a $100k advancement.

    100,000: Advancement.
    20,000: producer fee.
    50,000: studio fee.
    10,000: Artwork fee.
    50,000: Replication fee.
    30,000: Marketing fee.
    = $260,000

    And guess what, the album, hasn't even been released yet. That's right, it's sitting in boxes at this point.

    Now you've got to sell the album.

    50,000: Advertising fee
    25,000: Tour support
    20,000: Merchandising
    =$355,000

    And this is just a short list people. The artist is now responsible for paying back $355,000 dollars before it makes .1 cent. On top of that, you've got management fees, agent fees, lawyer fees and so forth.

    So in order for this band to even break even, they have no choice but to sell at 13.99 an album 25,375 cd's and or digital downloads.

    Fans may think this is a small number, but I promise you it is not. For a genre that we are all interested in, if a band doesn't sell atleast 40k cd's they get dropped and you'll never hear of them again.

    This is why labels are seeking out other avenues to recoup their money from artists. Whether it be in merchandising, video sales and so forth.

    That is why you see the rising costs of concert tickets, merchandise and so forth. Because the artist does not really want to go back to there day job. They love being able to play and perform music for the fans, but without a little respect on both sides, neither will be able to continue doing what they love.
     
  9. sh0kr0k

    sh0kr0k Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2002
    Messages:
    5,171
    Likes Received:
    197
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    St. Paul, MN
    Hey good to see you here, Mike! Welcome to the other side of my world! :lol: Do you know Bill (PurpleCrayonWriter)? You both might benefit from knowing eachother.

    I've been staying out of this, but just wanted to see what you added to the argument. Hope to see more of you around here.
     
  10. Jim LotFP

    Jim LotFP The Keeper of Metal

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2001
    Messages:
    5,681
    Likes Received:
    6
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Location:
    Helsinki, Finland
    These numbers are completely out of whack for "indie" in "a genre we are all interested in."
     
  11. Cheiron

    Cheiron Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2006
    Messages:
    5,645
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Exactly. And so is

    "So in order for this band to even break even, they have no choice but to sell at 13.99 an album 25,375 cd's and or digital downloads."

    Considering that would mean the band is getting everything. When its closer to $1.50 for many labels.. and smaller labels maybe 5 (no label (or almost no) that fronts that amount is giving them 50%). Which means closer to 237,000.


    Read: http://www.arancidamoeba.com/mrr/problemwithmusic.html
     
  12. PurpleCrayonWriter

    PurpleCrayonWriter Just a Kid at Heart

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2006
    Messages:
    1,088
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Location:
    Grand Rapids, Michigan
    At some point the preponderance of evidence has to be accepted.

    Not to go way off topic, but consider evolution. Scientifically, there's no way to "prove" it. Science is based on repeatable experiments. You can't repeat evolution. Many scientists, however, consider the evidence that's out there, weigh it, and decide that evolution is scientific fact.

    Global warming is in this same category. There's ample evidence on both sides to support scientific arguments for or against its veracity. In the end, people choose to believe what they want to believe.

    Since there's no way to round up the thousands of people who download to ask them if they would have bought the CD anyway -- or plan to once they got the mp3s in their computer -- all we can go on is an ever-growing pile of facts that indicate, very strongly, that downloading is hurting record labels.

    I'm not sure why this isn't crystal clear to everyone: An illegal download takes money from bands and record labels. That much is a logical, and no stretch to draw that conclusion. One illegal download = one CD not paid for. After that, it's anyone's guess that the person downloading will actually buy it later on.

    But consider Lance's statements. Other labels have said the same thing over the past few years. Are they drawing unreasonable conclusions? I don't think so. In a court of law, what we have here is circumstantial evidence, but a preponderance of it that suggests -- beyond a reasonable doubt -- that illegal downloaders are guilty.

    Yet, let's assume that the evidence is 50/50. There's no way to prove or disprove it precisely. No 1:1 correlation. At that point, one needs to find something that tips the argument one way or another. For me, that "something" is two things: (1) illegal downloading is just that -- illegal. It violates the law; therefore, I need to give that serious consideration, (2) People like Lance whom I respect greatly are telling me that it's hurting his business. Okay, maybe I can thumb my nose at government rules and regulations. I can stick my tongue out at the FBI. But what I can't do is thumb my nose at Lance, and many others like him. Law is black and white. But Lance represents the other side of the coin -- emotion. Laws are faceless. Guys like Lance are not.

    So, for me, the option to illegally download just isn't there. In my mind I know it's illegal. In my heart I know it's taking money from bands and labels. Therefore, I can't do it.

    Do I wish to wait until the matter is proved conclusively, scientifically, and legally before I act on my beliefs? No. Because by then, if downloading is indeed damaging bands and labels, it's too late.
     
  13. PurpleCrayonWriter

    PurpleCrayonWriter Just a Kid at Heart

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2006
    Messages:
    1,088
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Location:
    Grand Rapids, Michigan
    Agreed. When I read those figures I thought, "Who is he talking about -- Bon Jovi? Bruce? Madonna?" I can't think of any band pertinent to PPUSA that gets a $100,000 advance. Most don't see a tenth of that. Many don't get a dime.

    But his point is well taken. There are a lot of fingers in the pie and bands have to work their arses off to make any money these days. They lose money touring. They losing money because of reduced sales. They lose money all the way around. The music business is precarious at best.

    That's why all of us should do what we can to support it; not further muck it up.

    Buy CDs. Don't illegally download them.
     
  14. PurpleCrayonWriter

    PurpleCrayonWriter Just a Kid at Heart

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2006
    Messages:
    1,088
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Location:
    Grand Rapids, Michigan
    I don't know Mike. But anyone who talks in figures that large is someone I'd like to know. :)

    But why are you staying out of this, TZ? You're eloquent and very knowledgeable about all matters music.
     
  15. Metalhed

    Metalhed Member

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2006
    Messages:
    71
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    6
    Let's get this out of the way first: downloading music free of charge (p2p, bit torrent, etc) without permission of the band or label is illegal. There is no way to defend any other position. Copyright laws in the US make that so (whether you agree with it or not). It may not bother you that it is illegal, but it is.

    That said, I still do not believe that illegal downloading has had a huge impact in the decline of CD sales. I find that to be a very easy target (because it is much more widespread with the internet as a carrier for the music). I have read all the posts above and still do not see an ironclad connection. In order for the numbers above to be "beyond a reasonable doubt", we need to know that the download counts consist of people that would have bought the CD otherwise, hence proving a lost sale. I have yet to see anything that tells me that conclusively.

    Three things jump out at me as having a big impact on CD sales:

    1) The ability to download legally - this is a channel for getting CD's without buying the CD - this has to cut into some sales. This also introduces the ability to download individual songs, something you cannot do with CD's. Once an iPod connection is standard in all cars, iTunes will become even more popular...
    2) An over crowded marketplace - it was stated above that the number of CD's produced a year is increasing, which has an impact on the consumer's decision of what to purchase. Look at sites like The End Records, CDInzane and LaserCD, the new release list keeps getting longer every year. I have a hard time deciding what to spend my dollars on, some CD's will simply be left behind because I can't afford them all.
    3) Satellite radio - here is another way to listen to the type of music you want whenever you want to for a small monthly fee. Services like this must also have an impact on CD sales when many cars now come with satellite radio. It used to be local radio channels of which you had a couple of choices (easy listening, pop and classic rock). Now you can specialize and get different genres of music all day long. No more need for CD's in the car.

    I feel the above reasons have had far more impact on CD sales than illegal downloads. This is not to say I am advocating illegal downloads - I am not. But I don't believe it to be a large reason in the decrease of CD sales. The iTunes model will continue to kill CD sales into the next decade. Sooner or later, most (if not all) record labels will need to adopt some kind of electronic distribution because CD's will become the next 8-track tapes, which is sad (I like the feeling of a well-done digibook package :) )
     
  16. The Fiddler

    The Fiddler Just Do It.

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2002
    Messages:
    2,833
    Likes Received:
    6
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Location:
    Heaven and Hell
    :lol: Are we supposed to believe that? Stand up and defend your words when somebody calls you out for a personal stab, especially when it's the person you took a shot at. Don't cower (and lie) with a comeback like, "I'm not commenting on you specifically." :Smug:

    If you weren't referring to Ned when you said, "labels and companies likes yours should die off," just who were you referring to? Please identify who "yours" is?

     
  17. Cheiron

    Cheiron Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2006
    Messages:
    5,645
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    38
    I was referring to companies like Ned's. Its not a personal attack, nor a statement of any hatred toward's his company, nor do I think he's greedy. But I don't believe that companies like his are all that useful, nor needed. I'd rather get my crack from the source (i.e. the band, when possible). Sadly, the source often won't sell. They are missing out.

    I don't see a future need for labels are they currently are, nor companies like Ned's. At least not for new album sales. I do like that he has some hard to get albums, vinyl, and shirts ;)
     
  18. Exploding Ned

    Exploding Ned Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2003
    Messages:
    1,157
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Location:
    Southeastern U.S.
    So I guess I do serve a purpose afterall then eh? Thanx for justifying my meager existence.

     
  19. eaeolian

    eaeolian Division Guitarist

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2002
    Messages:
    3,149
    Likes Received:
    8
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Location:
    Woodbridge, VA
    That's the core of your argument. It's also incorrect reasoning - there is exactly ZERO evidence of a 1:1 correlation between the two items. Simply because I downloaded something - which, as you point out, costs me nothing - does not mean that I'd have bought it cold, which is what your reasoning is saying.

    Human behavior is part of the equation. I'd never have risked my limited CD budget on some of the things I now own without the ability to truly preview them.

    I'd say it's reasonable to suppose that a percentage of downloads result in lost sales - but how do you determine what that percentage is? Simply because you can't figure that out doesn't give you license to make an almost assuredly incorrect assumption of a 1:1 correlation being true.
     
  20. DAVETHEMETALGUY

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2002
    Messages:
    1,208
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Location:
    TUSCALOOSA, ALABAMA
    Maybe we should do away with the vendors room then at PP. If everyone wants to download and not pay for stuff. Seeing as how some people think companies that sell cd's aren't needed. So Ken, Century Media, The End, Ned etc should go into serving food maybe?
    Maybe hotdog carts in the vendors room would help ease the tummies of the drunken torrent users but im sure they will whine about if they are vegan dogs or cooked in water with celery seed.
    oh wait hotdog carts might be dying out to because most people get their hotdogs from large warehouse places like Sams.

    If you rely on the freekin bands to bring merch for you to buy, well, keep waiting. they're not gonna do it. So you go ahead and download your music then sit in front of your computer making the insert book just how you want it, then bring that for the band to sign. Make sure to tell them you fucked them over while you're standing there shoving your nose up their ass saying 'I have all your stuff'.

    Im done with thread. oh and YES 'I'm commenting on you specifically'
     

Share This Page

  • About Us

    Our music community has been around for almost 15 years and we pride ourselves on offering great metal music discussion, as well as music production and other closely related topics. We work hard every day to make sure our community is one of the best. Enjoy!
  • Like us on Facebook

  • Donate ♥

    We have worked hard for 15 years (and running) to make sure our Metal community is running fast, uses the best software, and isn't overloaded with advertising. If you love the forum as much as we love bringing it to you, please show your support with a generous donation. We really appreciate it!