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Question about lyrics...?

Discussion in 'Turisas' started by ThatNorskChick, Jul 29, 2007.

  1. AndreasS

    AndreasS Dutch Demon

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    I always believed a Diphthong was just a combo of 2 vowels, for all I know it has nothing to do with a different pronunciation, you just combine the 2 written vowels into one sound. A lot of on-line sources back me up on this, as I quote:

    "A diphthong (pronounced /ˈdɪfθɒŋ/ or /ˈdɪpθɒŋ/;[1] from Greek δίφθογγος, diphthongos, literally "two sounds" or "two tones"), also known as a gliding vowel, refers to two adjacent vowel sounds occurring within the same syllable. Technically, a diphthong is a vowel with two different targets: That is, the tongue moves during the pronunciation of the vowel. In most dialects of English, the words eye, hay, boy, low, and cow contain diphthongs."

    Secondly, all info I get while googling for ANCIENT GREEK (not talking about modern-day Greek) claims "οι" should sound like "oi" in the English word coin.

    Most languages have evolved a LOT over the years (try reading archaic German or English, for instance!), so it wouldn't surprise me. And I spoke with two people who have studied ancient Greek in their time, showed them the Turisas CD and asked them about the title, they both read it as something between "oi" and "ai" but surely not "ee".

    My question is, Crucifier, have you actually studied ancient Greek? or are you purely basing your opinion on modern-day Greek?
     
  2. The Shinster

    The Shinster Penior Member

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    It wouldn't be ancient Greek, it would be Byzantine Greek surely?

    I can perhaps ask my Greek history lecturer tomorrow if I remember.
     
  3. Crucifier

    Crucifier Heathen

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    ^ Exactly. As I said, there is SPECULATION that the ancients might have separated the two vowels and pronounced them normally, but that did definitely not happen in the Byzantine days.

    Also, yes, I have studied ancient Greek for six years (it is obligatory in Greek schools), and I can assure you that it is definitely not proven that the diphthongs were pronounced differently. (Well, how could there, since there are no sound documents? :p)

    You see, the Greek accent is very clean-cut. There are no different pronunciations for s, r, o etc. There are no sounds "between this and that". So there is never a question of how you pronounce something (contrary to, say, English, where nothing is pronounced as it is written).

    The only exceptions are οι (ee), ει (ee), αι (e, as in 'ten') and ου (oo, as in 'too'). Οι, ει and αι are the most often suffixes in the plural of nouns.

    That's why, in Latin, many words ending in -us (the equivalent of the Greek -ος), in plural they end in -i (the equivalent of the Greek -oι, ει). e.g. fungus-fungi.
     
  4. AndreasS

    AndreasS Dutch Demon

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    So you agree it is likely the Greek language evolved, and so did its pronunciation?

    Then WHY do you only use examples from modern-Greek to back your argumentation up? Seems a bit...weird.

    About the Diphthongs: pronouncing "oi" as in the English "coin" is what most people would find 'normal' (and thus NOT "separating" the vowels). I am aware some cut it off into 'o-i' as in "(David B)OWIE" or "(J)oey" or even "(D)o I?", but that's exactly what a Diphthong IS NOT. "Coin" contains a Diphthong, "o-i" as it sounds in "Joey" isn't a Diphthong, because that creates an extra syllable to the word.
     
  5. Kele

    Kele Member

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    Now, now...
    Mathias probably studied all those sources that say that's pronouced "oi", and thus pronounces it like that in the song. Misinformation in the worst case. I don't know why those sources say that, maybe people have understood that speculation wrong and turned it into "facts". I think a Greek person that has studied Greek language history for six years knows something about his mothertongue. At least he's right about the modern Greek. But this can also be a constant battle of two sides due to lack of evidence as many many things about ancient history.
     
  6. Cari

    Cari Member

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    well, my friend´s professor, who has just been asked by my friend , also says it is also correct like Mathias sings it.

    So we have the battle of people who studied that.

    Being honest, I am already tired of this discussion since there is no 100% evidence of who is right and who isn´t. and most likely there never will be.
     
  7. Kele

    Kele Member

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    As I thought, facts against facts...
    Well, I'm neither of those so I'm done.
     
  8. Cari

    Cari Member

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    and without sounding rude, I´d probably care more if it was another song, but since I am not that much into the song anyways, it doesn´t really touch me lol
    i just pass on what i read or heard coz the topic seemed interesting.
     
  9. Nygård

    Nygård Warlord

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    Hey,

    And sorry for taking so long to reply to this. Let me start off by saying that in general, I of course strive to get things right, but on every album there are a few slips - wether it's a mistake in the playing, or like here a pronounciation issue. And of course I, just as well as all the listeners, need to accept the fact, that as long as I use any other language than my native one(s), Finnish and Swedish, it will never sound native.

    Now, getting down to the actual issue at hand here's a few points:

    - Languages and the pronounciation change by time and place (dialects)

    - The study of historical phonology is much like the study of history itself: little can be carved in stone and it's a constant debate between researchers and academics where in certain times one convention might be the more common prevailing one, and in other times it might change again.

    - Greek having been the language of science for such a long time has resulted in a confusing amount of ways of how to pronounciate it. Scientists pronounce it one way, and for example Classical Greek has been taught differently, say, in London in the 16th century and Paris in the 19th century.

    - None of the above has much to do with how I pronounce it on the record. This is only to point out, that few things are really as black and white we find ourselves wanting them to be. No matter what Wikipedia tells you...

    - Yes, I am - and have been througout - fully aware that in Byzantine Greek, the words would have been pronounced Venet-ee and Prasin-ee. However, I chose the so called - and much debated - Ancient/Classical pronounciation because it simply sounds better!!! The streched ending syllables would not have the same effect with the thinner front vowels as they do now with the more powerful back vowels. It's actually pretty common, that pronounciation gets compromised when singing, especially in classical singing, but in any kind of music.

    It is what we call... ARTISTIC FREEDOM ;) :headbang:

    EDIT: Moved the whole Greek-discussion from the album-thread to the lyrics-thread.
     
  10. Kele

    Kele Member

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    Agree on that... Thought about and sounded out that when this discussion was active. It wouldn't sound as mighty with -ee. :p Would probably sound like a someone squeezed between boulders rather than a roar. :lol:
     
  11. MNge

    MNge Marie-Neige

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    Necromancizing old topics, part 1.

    I want to thank everyone who took part in this thread because you answered a lot of questions I was asking myself. Amazing.
    MNge
     
  12. junten

    junten New Metal Member

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    you mean ancient Russian coz it sounds almost nothing like Russian. If listening to it as russian u can hear "grandpa oh my grandpa, bla bla bla bla vodka"
    for real I am Russian and never heard a song like that.
    So if anyone knows what are the lyrics to this part of the song I'd like to know them.
     
  13. MNge

    MNge Marie-Neige

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    If you're talking about the Court of Jarisleif.

    March 10 2009 :

    Voilà.
    MNge
     
  14. Toni_deMaio

    Toni_deMaio New Metal Member

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    Hi!
    I'm translating "Miklagard Overture" to spanish and I can't listen the words in a lines that are not in the lyrics. I've read the whole thread so I think I'm sure this has not been asked yet. Please, correct me if I'm wrong.
    I'm talking about a melodic chorus, that last from about 4.50 to 5.10 in the studio recording. If you can show me that words, I would be so pleased.
    Thanks you all, long live Historic Metal.

    P.S. Sorry for the grammar.
     
  15. Crucifier

    Crucifier Heathen

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    Man, I feel like a dick. Since the thread was moved, all the notifications started going to my junk mail, and for more than a year I didn't realize all you guys have been responding, as well as the explanation from Mathias :cry:

    So, first of all, Tony, I posted a translation a few pages ago:

    And MATHIAS, in case you ever see this, if you wish to use Greek lyrics again in a song, I'll be more than happy to help! :D

    You have studied our language and history, probably more than the average Greek guy, so you have my utmost respect for (not being bored to do) that! :headbang:
     
  16. Toni_deMaio

    Toni_deMaio New Metal Member

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    I was hearing "Rex Regi Rebellis" and I realised that there is something I can't understand. I know the meaning of the song -Thirty Years War, Gustavus Adolphus, hakkapeliitat- but I have a question about those lines:

    "Out of the dust, past our ranks
    came a mount without a master
    blood-stained it strode all alone
    each one knew the oak had fallen"

    I don't know what or who is referred with "the Oak". At first I tought I was related to pre-christian cult, but it is clear that the characters in the song have strong feelings on christianism. So I'm asking you for some answers about "the Oak". Is it about the death of the King in Lützen? I think it is the most probable, but, then why is he called "the Oak"?

    Thanks you, Toni deMaio.
     
  17. WRock

    WRock New Metal Member

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    Turisas most epic band on Earth, I like the first two albums. Miklagard Overture love this song & lyrics.
     

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