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single note punch/attack/definition

Discussion in 'F.O.H.' started by Red Phoenix, Jul 18, 2013.

  1. Red Phoenix

    Red Phoenix Member

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    Recently i got into Triviums in waves and the guitar sound on that album. While playing some trivium riffs i noticed that i can't get this punch/attack on single notes like in the intro on .

    Here i'm playing the riff myself and you can hear how the single notes are not jumping at you like in the original :D ..sounds somehow boring. Is it a post processing technique to get this attack? Is postgain 2 (5150) not loud enough? Or is it in the guitar player fingers and i'm too bad? With normal one stage compression i don't get there.
    Would be great if someone knows this.
     
    #1 Red Phoenix, Jul 18, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 19, 2015
  2. Mm1066

    Mm1066 Mediocre metal maker

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    I think it will be due to the playing style of MKH & CB, it sounds like they are picking a lot harder than you are. You could also try playing the riff correctly...:heh:
     
  3. Nuno Filipe

    Nuno Filipe You talkin' to me?

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    lol of course it doesnt sound right you are not even respecting the tempo and the intervals of the song.
     
  4. Red Phoenix

    Red Phoenix Member

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    Well, i don't know how to play the riff correctly. But i'm not interested in the riff itself, i just played by ear to show what i meaned with note attack.
    So you guess it's the picking? I always try to pick as hard as i can. But what is hard? "bend" the string with the pick so that it snaps back? Hit the string so that it slaps on the frets?
     
  5. xFkx

    xFkx gain induction

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    well, you could clean up your techniqe, other than that it was most likely recorded with a different guitar then you own, and that plays a role too, it was mic'ed differently as well, lots of factors truth be told
     
  6. Red Phoenix

    Red Phoenix Member

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    This is with hitting harder so that the strings always slap against the fretboard.
    Sounds a bit different but not that much in my ears..what do you say?
     
  7. blue_fAng

    blue_fAng Member

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    Many factors play on tone of course, but I think that most of the sound we are hearing comes from Matt's gibson with emg 81, that's why it sounds so punchy. I can get a similar tone with my LTD with EMG pickups, close but not as punchy. I'll upload a clip when I have the chance.
     
  8. smy1

    smy1 Member

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    Your muting is sloppy. There's still the chord mute ringing out in the background which makes the single notes sound less distinctive. If there was silence after the chord, then the single note would have more definition/punch by default. That, the playing style and the equipment.
     
  9. epo21

    epo21 New Metal Member

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    This is the closest I can get. Two noisegates really helps to tighten it up.

     
    #9 epo21, Jul 18, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 23, 2015
  10. Red Phoenix

    Red Phoenix Member

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    Harder picking and better muting seems to get me in the right direction. A noise gate is also a good idea, epo. I tried it, but it's somehow cheating and sounds also a bit weird. I have to practise more how to get rid of the ringing smy mentioned. A shame that i didn't realised it earlier :S
    Would a more rigid plec help me with the picking attack instead of the more flexible ones i used to have?
     
  11. blue_fAng

    blue_fAng Member

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    I just uploaded a clip in the G.A.S. thread, I played a little of trivium in there but these are other songs from the album because my guitar is sounding bad in C and I have to set it up for that. You can hear that there is more attack on single notes because I hit the strings very hard.

    https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/28110505/LTDH1001.mp3
     
  12. Alphanumeric

    Alphanumeric Member

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    Use a hard pick, anywhere from 88mm to 2.00. Also downpick it all but with a bouncing effect, I can see Matt playing this in my head and I can see him really bouncing off the strings, keep a loose arm but tight wrist, pretty much attack the strings and use a combination of muting with the cusp/lower part of fingers of your left hand and palm of right hand accross all the strings, if that doesn't work break out with the tape on the unplayed strings, foam under the nut, on the strings going into the body if its a string through.
     
  13. hurdy

    hurdy Sup

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    I haven't got time to listen to clips but you could try turn your pick a little.
    Meaning, the side of the pick attacks the string rather than the flat part of the pick.
    So don't hold it parallel to the string, instead try it with a bit of a perpendicular angle.
    Usually helps to bring out more attack, but it may take a while to get the hang of playing with the pick like that (so be patient)
     
  14. Red Phoenix

    Red Phoenix Member

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    That sounds tight blue_fAng!
    Is it correct to get this percussive fret clank when playing unplugged with hard hitting? Or do i have to set the string action higher? I don't know if the fret noise is wanted but i could imagine that it is part of the attack i'm looking for. Also when i really pick hard the strings go out of tune now and i already use 12-54 gauge on a 25.5" scale..and i thought about switching to lighter strings before because i don't really like thick ones :D Now i should do the opposite perhaps.
    I experimented with your advices. I used a more rigid pick now and struggled with a better muting. This seems to be the most difficult part for me. When i'm muting the string with the palm closer to the neck i can eliminate the ringing. But i'm used to play much closer to the bridge. It's hard to jump between that while playing.
    Keeping a loose arm and tight wrist isn't that easy for me..with constant hard hitting now my hand/arm gets cramped very fast.
    I don't hold my pick in parallel to the strings. With an angle i get more scratch and because of the anatomy of my thumb it's also more pleasant to hold it that way ;)

    This is with muting closer to the neck and a more rigid pick:
    https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/7625817/sneap/audio/GreyIntroRiff3.mp3
     
  15. blue_fAng

    blue_fAng Member

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    Thanks!

    There's nothing wrong with that buzzing noise, as long as you don't hear a weird noise with the distorted sound and you actually hear the notes played then it's alright. That's a pretty common thing that happens on low action. Now with the muting technique, there are ways to mute the sound tightly like a gate, I'm very good at it but I don't know how to explain it. I use both of my hands to stop the ringing, I touch all the strings lightly with my left hand and kinda the same with the right hand but a little harder.

    There's a lot of guitar players that have been practicing for years and play nice that can't mute the strings properly. I remember many players that came here to record that complain about the noise and then ask me to turn down the gain when it was just a matter of technique, I picked their guitar and show them the way I do it and when they learnt it the problem went. If there's no way of muting without producing too much noise then the gain must be too high. Notice that in my clip there is fast muting and the input gain is high (DI clipping at -10 dbfs, then tse 808 with volume, tone and input maxed so it's output is almost clipping before the ampsim with 5 of gain).

    I think your guitar tone needs a little more gain so it sounds more powerful combined with faster muting to get closer to the trivium tone. Your last clip sounds good, it's just that it needs faster muting and slightly more gain.

    Picking hard is always important for strong parts. I refer to strong parts to most of what you hear in a rock or metal songs and weak parts when it is supposed to sounds more dynamic or slow, like a chill section or song then you should play weaker. So, playing harder sounds better for high gain tones . If your notes are going out of tune while playing harder, that's because you played weaker when tuning your instrument and you have to tune the way you are going to pick. The stronger you pick the sharper the note is going to be and you have to be careful with the thick strings, the thicker they get the more difficult to tune gets. I tune like this:

    Pick the string constantly while tuning, until you reach the desired note in the tuner. The 3 lightest strings shoud be in the perfect note your tuner shows you. Now the wound strings are more tricky because these tend to go like crazy on the tuner. Because the way I play ( I strum the the two thickest strings very hard, the next one a little just softer and then the remaining strings even a little softer) I tune the way I'm going to play, so I hit the thickest strings hard and I don't make them reach the perfect desired note, but juuust a little flatter than that. The third thickest is almost in the perfect note and the other two thicker strings even more flat, just too slightly. Make sure you never go sharper that the desired note.

    There you go, in short: you should tune with the same strenght you are going to play, and don't tune to sustain. Note that the clip I recorded is not in tune at all, I didn't have a tuner at that moment.
     
  16. Red Phoenix

    Red Phoenix Member

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    wow, long answer...thanks for your time! :)

    That's fine, then i don't mind the fret noise anymore. When you mute the strings "harder" with the right hand do you mean that you really push them down maybe even against the pickup to totally stop the stringvibration? This Gate-effect is really hard to get. There is still an low "ummmmm" left after muting the strings with the left and right hand. At least when i "softly" touch them like when i would play palmmute.

    I just decreased the gain to get faster muting :D

    I understand your tuningmethod. I tried it and in the first run it sounds ok. But only short notes are in tune then..when holding a chord a whole 4/4 bar then the sustain note is out of tune very fast. I need to find a good balance.
     
  17. bryan_kilco

    bryan_kilco Member

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    What did you use for amp/sim?

    Cool tone!
     
  18. Red Phoenix

    Red Phoenix Member

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    Do you also have the DI to your "LTDH1001.mp3" record? I would like to try it with my rig to see if it can be as tight as your record or if something is producing a loose low end beside my playing style :)
     
  19. blue_fAng

    blue_fAng Member

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    Sorry for the late response.

    You don't have to push your hands down hard, it's just a matter of muting all the strings you previously played before the mute and not touching the lighter strings you didn't play without making much noise within a very short time, but of course it's not that easy to do it properly so practice is key. The hum might be there probably because the guitar is just too noisy by default but you are not supposed to hear a lot of it ( we are supposed to sound clean while we play right? ), now it depends on how annoying you find the hum...I usually hear a just a little noise when I mute even with both hands and that doesn't matter because you won't hear it in a mix context.

    For the tuning thing, and depending on the guitar you may need to find a balance. I usually don't have any tuning issues with the method I described, it doesn't matter if I play fast notes, sustaned notes, leads or whatever. Maybe you need to find a way of playing while tuning with this method until it sounds right. If that doesn't happen then I'd suggest to tune depending on the riff you are going to record. Unless your guitar has tuning issues or badly setup it shouldn't go out of tune while you play chords.

    TSE x50 the lastest beta version, it was recorded on the fly but I'm pretty sure it was something very close to this: red channel the one that has more gain, pre gain - 4, low - 5, mid - 1, high 4.5, post gain was somewhere between 2 and 3, low end - 5, presence - 7.

    Nope, recorded it on the fly but I can make a DI if you want.
     
  20. Red Phoenix

    Red Phoenix Member

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    Ah ok, so only slightly touching the strings for muting.
    And i didn't mean ground-hum or similar. I meaned that when i touch the string with the palm the note is not immediately gone like if its gated but the note fades out with a low pitched noise. But only if i mute close to the bridge. Closer to the neck it mutes much more like a gate.

    It would be great if you could record a DI with your muting technique :) Today i used x50 instead of the miced 5150 and it was much much tighter...now i would like to try your DI trough my real amp even more to hear how that sounds.
    I will keep trying your tuning method but probably also with thicker strings. This "iiiuuung" when the strings get out of tune after hardhitting is annoying :D
     

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