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So you want a tight mix?

Discussion in 'F.O.H.' started by jval, Dec 10, 2009.

  1. colynomial

    colynomial Member

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    RHCP guitars are quanitized like crazy. Have you ever heard John Frusciante play live?! :lol:

    Sounds "raw"ish, sure, but not un-tight.
     
  2. abt

    abt BT

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    Thanks for this post jval, it's very interesting to me. Perhaps you could elaborate on some of the techniques that you are using? Specifically the punching in of individual guitar notes. Are you actually breaking chords down into separate notes on separate tracks or am I misinterpreting this?

    Also the tuning of notes, do you mean tune them with a plugin or are you punching in those notes again?

    I guess it's a two way street, there is a stygma attached to a lot of these techniques that you are using. I think a lot of users want to learn this stuff but sometimes it's hard to get an answer. The last post I saw someone ask how to record at a slow speed they got flamed and no real help.
     
  3. MEGA DAVE

    MEGA DAVE Member

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    I would love for someone to post a video of this process of recording. I understand the concept but I just cant figure out how to actually do it ( i know how to punch in, just not every other note )
     
  4. James-Doolan

    James-Doolan Member

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    its simple just give your self a 4 count before the note you want to punch and set the punch to a 16th before where you want to play then simply punch it, make sure it sounds good then edit the note to the grid (if it needs it) and cross fade to the previous take. Then painful though it is rinse repeat
     
  5. Sacha

    Sacha Throbbing Member

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    Plenty of the 'modern' productions being discussed still have mistakes...listen to the multitracks from some of the Sneap / Richardson / Adam D productions, they still have some mistakes and out of tune notes in there. Sure they are edited and tuned but not completely lifeless. And a lot of people think they are already 'overproduced' ! :lol:

    There is a line (if a fine one these days) I believe between acceptable 'mistakes' and not.
     
  6. arv_foh

    arv_foh Brian K

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    Give an example with Mars Volta please?? Their records are sonically perfect, the production is excellent, and there are all kinds of crazy little subtleties in the production that really set it over the top.
     
  7. LeSedna

    LeSedna Mat or Mateo

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    I understand this approach of production but here it's obviously too much of copy/pasting. Especially in breakdown parts with that detuning note. It sounds good in itself, but there is no point where I can really here musicality, there is no musical phrases even in the rythm tracks. I mean, it actually doesn't sound like someone is playing it. Even if I wouldn't have read that thread I wouldn't have listened the two songs, because it's no pleasure to hear. I actually agree with you Jval on the point that having a sound in CD that is not what you play live is not really a problem. I clearly make a difference between both of these aspects, because the intention is not the same, or we would all do live recordings in a rehearsal room to produce a CD. The CD is like the concretisation of a composition, excepted the players are the same as the composer, which is already a good thing if we compare it to the whole pop music world where the artist doesn't even write lyrics and music of "his hits". But I think this is too extreme, for me. Actually, what I feel as the true shame about this whole issue, is that there is people wanting that sort of sound ; fake-tight production is half a trigger but also half an effect of people being fooled by this. It's indeed easy when you are musician to understant this, and that is maybe the problem, that it needs you to be musician to get it.

    We're living a strange period where releasing a good sounding CD is not being a good sounding musician. That's what makes me feel being a starting AE should be sometimes hard, because you don't have the name making bands like Nevermore come to your studio, and as Marcus stated, making band come back when you kick them out of your studio for not knowing their parts or being able to play them.

    I am currently falling into Devin Townsend again, I finally got into his "Ki" album, and now I listen to it like 3 or 4 times a day. What I love in him is that he is pure musicality, from A to Z. Of course, he is a great player and singer, and he will never need those type of cut recordings. But, maybe it's also because of his approach of music (like "Music") that makes him sounds so delightful. It sounds actually the exact opposite of that sort of bands that florish everyday sounding all the same. He's also the one who made me loose my need to write swedish metal songs, a style I really appreciate for the good balance of melody and energy, because I finally heard in my songs too many things sounding standard, ie: not remarkable, at least not so much. I can easily copy some bands styles, but with some distance I have come to thinking this is what would have made my songs a new "[some band's name]-like".

    Anyway, I guess what you did is an awesome job if they don't play so tight. I'm a bedroom "ae", and maybe will be all my life because I don't intend in making real money of it. I'm sure you also dream of a world where musicians are good. You do your job great, what bands wanna pay for, that's what is important for you to grow and maybe reach a level where you can enjoy more versatile things.

    @Marcus : you forgot to edit your signature today :)
     
  8. Fragle

    Fragle Member

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    goddamn, NEVER EVER slow down parts for recording. that's just missing the point really! imho obviously.

    to me it's a way different thing if you need a couple (or a lot) takes to get your stuff right, but at least you really *played* it once you're done. with slowed down stuff you never really played the thing as it was supposed to be (read: as you have written it). if you can't play it even after 100 takes, maybe you should just dumb it down a bit.

    sorry for saying the same thing twice, but that's just something i REALLY DO NOT UNDERSTAND AT ALL.
     
  9. LeSedna

    LeSedna Mat or Mateo

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    For me, it's not exactly the same deal. Those big names attract good bands, and those good bands play good songs that don't need to be edited to death (at least not so much), and the process of recording a song in 20 takes a track instead of 200 can be applied. In the end, they may choose some takes that have a little mistake because this take is also the very one that brought a nice groove somewhere, good enough to forget the mistake.
     
  10. professorlamp

    professorlamp I are Joe

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    to arv i more meant that they are very raw in their sound (apart from omar who has every effect known to man put on his guitar.) I maybe wrong i don't know why but it just stook in my head as a 'sketchy'album oh, i was more along the lines of fall of troy actually :p
     
  11. jval

    jval Member

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    sorry, the screenshot is actually of a song that isn't on the page. Here is a guitar shot of "In Pursuit of" if anyone wanted to look at it while listening??

    [​IMG]

    I want to point out that this technique doesn't have too much to do with 'editing', it's more about how it's tracked. I don't really do any editing after the fact on guitars, other than double checking all the fades and maybe a nudge here and there.
    i'm not trying to showcase this stuff as some of my best work or anything. despite spending 10 hours per song on guitar (no exaggeration), there are still some things that could be better on those, especially tuning. they were drop a# and we couldn't fit anything bigger than .60 on their guitars, and for that tuning it made things really difficult. but I think it's a good example of what it took to even get it to where it is there. with better players and a better guitar setup, things would be tighter.
    I agree it's disappointing hearing a great recording and then seeing them suck live. But that's not my goal, I don't care what they do live; my job is to make a good recording.

    When I say tuning notes in a chord, that means getting the player to put his fingers in the chord, and use a tuner to check each note. Record that one chord by itself, then tune for the next one. this is common not only in metal but in pop rock. Then, you can even get the guy to play along and punch in for about half a second in between chords to get the "chord change" sound... there are many ways to make it sound "real". I am glad some people are interested in hearing about it.
     
  12. MEGA DAVE

    MEGA DAVE Member

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    I'd actually like to have a conversation with you sometime to learn how to do this
     
  13. jval

    jval Member

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    haha, yup, it really is!
     
  14. Pedro Teixeira

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    And that tempo map, jesus christ
     
  15. [UEAK]Clowd

    [UEAK]Clowd Member

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    yes yes, I would love to compare our techniques and/or put our heads together to figure out a more efficient way.
     
  16. gabriel g.

    gabriel g. Member

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    Thats sooooo true!!!!
     
  17. joeymusicguy

    joeymusicguy Member

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    this is what my songs would look like, except i bounce (consolidate)

    i bounce a lot
     
  18. Nuno Filipe

    Nuno Filipe You talkin' to me?

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    I think this is somehow obsessive. Yeah right some bands need some tight performance and a lot of edits but this is beyond the acceptable IMO. While MIDI adds features like humanization, others try to sound like machines. This is ironic.
     
  19. colynomial

    colynomial Member

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    Also, for anyone intersted in the physics of tuning, the western musical scale has been adapted to allow for playing in any key and thus, even if your guitar is perfectly tuned and intonated, each chord is not necessarily "in tune with itself" (so to speak). Again, not common practice with metal, but in some crazy pop stuff each chord is actually tuned by ear to ensure that every interval is beating pure. For isntance, in the even tempered scale (where each semi tone is evenly spaced) major thirds are actually 13.69 cents flat, major sixths are 15.64 cents flat and minor sevenths are a whopping 31.17 cents flat. If you have a really good ear, you're probably always PO'd that your guitar just never quite seems in tune but it's not really your fault. That's why that stupid B string is always out. To sound "in" when it's open against the G you've actually gotta tune it a little bit sharp but then when you play intervals which are closer to just intonation, like 4ths and 5ths, the B then always sounds sharp.
     
  20. gabriel g.

    gabriel g. Member

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    This just looks radical but when you listen to it, it sounds all fine and real.
    When I start editing guitars (cutting out pauses, strange finger noise....) and zoom-out after that it looks the same.

    This extreme editing just gives you that tight punch we all like :loco:
     

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