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State of metal 2016

Discussion in 'Bar' started by scorpio01169, Jan 23, 2016.

  1. Keregioz

    Keregioz Kimon Zeliotis

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    Umm...okay.

    Creativity and quality of songwriting is obviously part of it. What I said in my original post is that, even if that is present in the music, the growling vocals can ruin it. There are execptions of course, but generally I find that it happens way too often lately (answering to the question about the state of metal by the OP). That's just my personal preference.
     
  2. Nuno Filipe

    Nuno Filipe You talkin' to me?

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    Why growls vs cleans would be derailing the topic? Isnt the voice used as a instrument and something inherent to the writting process? This can make a really good debate about things, something that the forum needs. Nobody here, I think wants to prove their point with useless arguments and I dont think nobody came yet with the posture of the guy who knows all, so we are just discussing points of view, giving constructive arguments to explain our views about the music scene.

    Of course old people, like me! tends to see things a bit differently than younger people but somehow it´s also understandable because I grew up in a time where the people used to sing and that was a normal thing to do in metal but now things are working in reverse way and then again I dont think I am just old fashioned because I love growls, I love music like black metal where there are no place for clean singing and I apreciate it a lot but then again growling everywhere when the music structure allows something more creative as a clean voice to be placed but just go with growls seems a limitation for the music to grow.

    I might came here later, there are a lot of arguments that has been said that I would like the comment.
     
  3. Dylan S

    Dylan S Celephai

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    This thread really is annoying. There are probably just as many shit clean singers out there that rely on auto-tune to sound half-decent, as there are people who suck at growls. Arguing over a style of vocals is pointless because we will all have different tastes, but trying to argue that the influx of growlers is wartering down the current offerings in metal is pointless as well. You can get vocal coaching and work on your growls just like you can work on clean singing.

    Some clean singers have incredible talent but annoy the hell out of me. How many of us would rather listen to Mikael from Opeth than James Labrie from Dream Theater? James Labrie sometimes ruins Dream Theater for me. Some power metal vocalists are too corny for my tastes, too. Sue me!

    The entire music world has been watered down by how easily someone can record an album in their bedroom with a laptop. Why are we arguing about a style of vocals when we live in a time where so many instruments are replaced with samples that you have to often look pretty hard to find stuff that sounds different to your bog-standard POD, SSD, SD2.0, etc? Having said that, as I mentioned before, there is a lot more music out there, so you can find some really cool stuff and I don't believe you even have to try very hard.

    Arguing that clean singing takes a lot more talent and is therefore better is really arrogant. How many people would rather listen to James Hetfield than Bruce Dickinson? How many people would rather

    I only get involved in 'talent' arguments when kids at school (I'm a high school teacher) try to argue that metal sucks and Justin Bieber/Nicki Minaj is better.

    Saying things like "bands only get growling vocalists because they can't find any proper singers" is the kind of dumbshit thing people say when they have absolutely no idea about heavy metal, AT ALL! At the moment I'm getting started on writing some new music and I either need to teach myself to growl or find someone on the internet who wants to contribute, because I can clean sing very well but the style of music is more suited to growling.

    What about the other 'talent' required to play some of these newer styles of metal? How often to we hear drummers as 'good' as Vitek or George Kollias in bands with clean singers? Personally, Van Williams from Nevermore is one of my absolute favourite drummers but some of these death metal blokes could play rings around him. I'm not saying Van sucks, but I'm using this to point out that the argument about clean singing requiring more talent is completely pointless.

    When some metalheads subtly (and sometimes subconsciously or without meaning to) imply they have a higher-class taste in music because they don't enjoy growls, I am seriously confused.
     
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  4. Nuno Filipe

    Nuno Filipe You talkin' to me?

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    Why would the clean singing vs growls be pointless, arent those things part of the music itself so how could be pointless? for you maybe, not for me. No one here is trying to be a music elitist. Now what I see that is pointless is to dismiss the importance of 2 different styles of singing. There is nothing arrogant in saying that knowing to sing properly takes much more effort than growling and this isnt just a subjective opinion. To place a vocal melody in a song isnt the same as placing growls, so you can say whatever you want to say.

    Now the statement that you did about the POD, SSD, SD2.0 about everything nowadays sounding the same, are you trying to say that because of that I should go with shitty vocals aswell? Because if all is so generic, I will go with the flow and put some generic growls also? Dont know why one thing has to do with another! I fail to relate.

    I can invert the sense of your last statement to say the same about the people who thinks they have a bigger sense of understanding and knowledge just because they accept growls as a part of metal.

    Now what makes me confused is people trying to imply some things like, wake up dude, this is the present, this is metal, nobody wants clean vocals, you are out of time, you dont understand, you are ignorant. Oh yeah right....

    Makes me remember the same analogy about being true, oh man Dimmu borgir are sellouts, darkthrone is the real deal, bla bla bla...

    In conclusion I will exit the thread because I am old fart guy that dont really understand the power of growling, maybe it´s just ignorance, even if most of the music I listen have growls and I like it... but that just dont justify that I cant have a different opinion, over and out... :thumbsup:
     
  5. Dylan S

    Dylan S Celephai

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    You don't have to play the "no one is allowed an opinion card" to justify leaving the thread.

    Nobody is saying we can't have different opinions. I'm just offering alternatives. Singling out the talent of clean singing as opposed to growling is just one aspect of the talent discussion here. You can say other kinds of guitar playing/drumming/whatever else have more/less talent than others in most styles of metal, or any music at all for that matter. Bringing up the fact that clean singing requires more talent seems arrogant to me, because talent in a technical sense and talent in a songwriting sense are two very different things.

    I'm not saying you should go with shitty vocals because a lot of the software is dominating the world at the moment. The point was raised to illustrate how much music is available to us now. Bringing up which vocalist is better than whoever and only half-acknowledging that a growler can have a lot of skill and musicality seems odd in a world where you can do whatever you want in a DAW.

    You missed my point a little. Let's remember that this thread is about the state of metal in 2016. Originally, the point was raised about how there seem to be a lot of new bands with bad sounding growls and therefore, it's hard to enjoy their music. Growls have been around for a long time! Certainly a lot longer than some people care to remember. Saying a lot of new bands are coming out now with growls and that ruining things is insane, because there are probably just as many bands coming out with shitty, uninspired clean vocals, that need to be fixed in the mix because the people can't sing properly to save their lives.

    Do you see the points I'm trying to make? It's nothing to do with 'my music is better than yours', and everything to do with perspective. If people are going to make the argument that they can't listen to a lot of new metal bands because of growls, what does that actually mean? Are they biased against growls? Do they only like clean vocals in metal, even if they are auto-tuned like a bastard? Are they critical of a boring band, even if the singer is amazing? Are they happy to ignore or write-off a band they believe make incredible music but they can't stand the vocals so they don't listen at all?

    That's why I'm confused. There are good and band growlers, like there are good and bad guitarists/drummers/keyboardists/etc. If you believe a clean singer is somehow a higher-class musician than a gutter-living growler, I am again confused as to why that matters. Enjoying one more than the other - yes, understandable. Trying to make the point that one is technically better than the other? What does it achieve, besides someone justifying why they like one style more than the other? Do people somehow believe metal is going downhill because there are lots of bands with growling now? Really?

    "I think clean singers are better than growlers so I listen to music with clean singing and don't like music with growlers."

    Who cares? That has nothing to do with 'the state of metal 2016'. It just tells us about your particular taste.
     
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  6. Keregioz

    Keregioz Kimon Zeliotis

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    Uhh...how is personal taste not related to someone's opinion on the state of metal today? I'm confused.

    No, that was exactly my point. There are definitely more bands with growling vocals coming out. At least that is my personal observation after trying hard to find decent bands to listen to. For each band with clean vocals I'll show you ten (if not more) with growls. I'm talking about quantity. I didn't say the mere existence of growling vocals ruins metal, it's its growing popularity over clean singing that has a negative impact (in my opinion) on the genre.


    Anyway, speaking for myself, I'm really picky about music in general, so clean singing is definitely not the be-all and end-all for a band to be good or to enjoy its music. I'm a guitarist, so I tend to focus on the music, but it's often like trying to listen to music while a person is shouting in your ears. There's a time and a place to use growls instead of resorting to them all the fucking time, they're doing a disservice to their own music and I find it frustrating.
     
  7. Dylan S

    Dylan S Celephai

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    Well maybe we are interpreting the point of the thread differently. I see 'the state of metal' as referring to how the entire genre is doing in terms of whether it is growing or shrinking in popularity.

    The fact that there are a lot of new bands coming out would suggest it is growing in popularity, but you are saying that you think these new bands aren't really a good thing because they rely on growls. Am I reading that right?

    The first few posts in this thread are referencing things like originality and creativity. I don't believe a vocal style can box a band in to being original or stagnant. As far as vocals are concerned, you could argue that we've heard it all before. We know what clean singing sounds like and we know what growls sounds like. Does that mean no new vocalist will ever be original? There are many styles of growls, just as there are many styles of clean singing. If you believe more bands are coming out with growls than clean vocals, that's fine, but that doesn't mean they all sound the same either. They may all be equally disappointing to you, but your personal taste doesn't speak for how healthy the entire genre may be.

    To give another example of how personal taste and the state of metal may be interpreted differently, consider this. Some people hate what Metallica became after AJFA but they did heavy metal a favour in helping it reach many mainstream fans, right?
     
  8. Keregioz

    Keregioz Kimon Zeliotis

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    Yeah, I have absolutely zero interest in the genre's populariy, I'm only talking about quality. I'm pretty sure that was the point of the thread. And that obviously entails a person's personal preferences.

    ...or that it's a lot easier to record and release an album.

    Yes. They're not a "good thing" for my personal tastes (or the health of my ears), not for the popularity of metal, which as stated earlier I don't really care.

    I don't know about originality, but vocals are definitely related with creativity. From a songwriter's perspective I can tell with absolute certainty that arranging melodic vocals is more complex and demanding with more variables to take into account thus it requires more creativity. I'm sorry if some of you see that as provocation on my part, but I'm just stating facts (unlike the "which vocals are better" argument which I guess is more subjective). I'll point out again, though, that there are many occasions where I don't mind some growls or even see them as more beneficial to a particular part of a song etc. (which also has to do with creativity, btw).
     
    #48 Keregioz, Jan 31, 2016
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2016
  9. Nuno Filipe

    Nuno Filipe You talkin' to me?

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    I can point you now just 2 guys that are doing their thing in singing style that makes things original and yes their voices are part of the originality. You have Mike patton and Devin townsend. As for Mike patton, the man have done almost it all, to most fuck up growls to most insane clean vocals, so he is quite a perfect example, how to use the voice with originality and bringing originality and creativity to the context of the music genre he does.

    You rely your argument heavily on shitty clean singers, the thing you dont seem to understand it´s that I am not talking about mediocre people in their business and I can complety agree with you that shitty singers doing cleans ruin music even much more faster than growlers, because the writting process for both is also different. There are probably a lot of clean singers in modern metal music and most of them suck donkey balls because they cant sing for life, and in this case, yes I completly agree with you, I rather have a awesome growler than a weak clean singer.

    So I am pointing people that excels in their shit, not the mediocre ones. Now I can grab the example of people doing their shit in their room, everyone now can throw albuns out there, and this is one of reasons why the quality decresead because there a lot of shit being done everyday, too much quantity over quality, so anyone can pass as a clean singer, yes it´s true but as a good one? there are few. I care for shitty singers like I care for shitty growlers, that is nothing. But that doesnt mean that I cant ask for people that knows how to do their shit. Because I will say to you that are much more but really much more bad growlers out there that shitty singers. If you want to sing, you have to know how and you must show ability to do it. Now the growler isnt the same thing, as for the good growler yes but there are so many bands that cant get away with mediocre growlers and people dont care much about it, now the clean singing, if you dont know how to do it you will make fool of yourself but as for the shitty growler the things arent the same, people dont think much of it, it´s a part of the agressive sound even if he does it right or not.

    So are this part of the state of metal in 2016, of course it is, singers have relation with the state of metal or arent they part of bands and writting process? Of course their are. A good or a bad growler is always part of the creativy and of the originality of a style. You pointed the metallica example, now I can point the Tesseract example, isnt their singer part of their creativy and originality, of course it is and a lot. You may not like it but that´s another question and I can make a point here also. if tesseract had a growler? Would be the same? even a good one? I think you know well the answer. Even with a good growler, if you can put there a good singer it will make a world of difference. Lets suppose that they had a awesome growler, even with it would be much more hard to break and make the difference from all the bands who have growls.
    I can point even another example, part of the sucess of opeth is the clean singing and gives room for another kind of writting in the guitar instead of being limited to do death metal riffs all the way. He was also a good example of a great singer and great growler, as for the growler, unfortunately he was, isnt anymore. But those examples can support my view of things.
     
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  10. Keregioz

    Keregioz Kimon Zeliotis

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    ^ I like how your signature always seems in tune with your posts :p
     
    #50 Keregioz, Jan 31, 2016
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2016
  11. Mago

    Mago Austrian Blech Machine

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    TLDR; "I don't like stuff when I don't like it" :lol:

    Off topic, but I dig the discussion so:

    I think I tend to agree with growling is easier than clean singing, mostly because I get a lot more pissed off when I hear a bad singer (autotuned or not) than I hear a bad growler/screamer.
    And also I hear a lot more bad singers than bad growlers. And I guess you won't do growling bad for very long cause you'll fuck up your voice so that will make you stop.

    Take from that what you will.

    Saying "anyone can do this or that" without practice is stupid. Not a lot of people are randomly good at stuff.

    Edit: great argument about the reasoning of when to use and when not to use growls tho Kimon. That makes a lot of sense.
    Which doesn't mean you can't just use it as a stylistic choice if you dig how growling sounds.
    Kinda weird to scream aggressively about happy topics though haha
     
    #51 Mago, Jan 31, 2016
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2016
  12. Dylan S

    Dylan S Celephai

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    I don't really disagree with any of the points made since my last post. I'm mainly just trying to get my head around the points of view being put across.

    I'm not saying people need to like growls.
    I'm not saying growling and clean singing require the same talent.

    All I'm saying is I think it's interesting that people believe a lot of new bands coming out with growls is somehow bad for the genre.

    Yeh, the ease of recording an album nowadays means anyone can do it, but the music still has to be good or people will think it sucks. As a result, there is stacks of music out there, but I don't see it as a bad thing. Some of my favourite music that has come out over the last few years has been as a result of people sitting in their bedrooms being very inspired by stuff they've heard. Back in the day, it was much harder to be able to unleash that creativity, so I see it as working (or not working) both ways.

    Don't get me mixed up with someone who thinks growls are the only style of vocals that belong in metal. I used to hate growls when I was a lot younger, too. The first time I heard Cannibal Corpse was hilarious. I thought they were terrible, and I couldn't understand why they had a vocalist sound like that. At the time, my favourite bands were stuff like Dream Theater and Symphony X.

    Now my taste has changed slightly and I find I love the rhythm guitars in death metal a lot, and I don't get as excited over guitar solos as I used to. As a result, JFAC, Decapitated, Behemoth, etc, are some of my favourite bands, but my favourite band of all time still is, and always will be, Nevermore.

    Maybe what some people interpret as bad for the genre, I interpret as exciting. The genre is growing in popularity and more people are getting involved in creating heavy metal. People may look back at this time in a few decades and compare it to the tape-swapping culture of the 80's that saw bands like Metallica become so successful.

    Slice the Cake is a good example of this kind of thing. I remember being a member of this forum ages ago when they released their first EP. It was back when I wasn't much into growls but I thought the music was really good. I took a break from the forum for a few years when I moved away from the town where my band was and chased a different career. I was talking to a friend of mine back home and he mentioned a band called 'Slice the Cake'. I'd heard of them before so I had a quick youtube and found they'd released some more music. It was incredible! I believe that without the current 'state of metal', music like that may not exist, which is why I love the way things are going right now.

    As a side note, I can't get enough of Mikael from Opeth. His growls are immense and his clean voice is both powerful and expressive. I'd love to be able to sing both styles like him.

    I hope my points of view make sense. Some of my other posts seem like I'm pissed off but I'm not really. I just get passionate about music.
     
  13. LeSedna

    LeSedna Mat or Mateo

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    I like people who can do both, end of story. I like me more high pitch screams than growls. However we're talking about metal as a genre, not about who sings better and why. It's like saying Bass is easier than Guitar.

    Factually though, i think the average singer makes people laugh more than the average growler. It's easier to make growl sound acceptable in a mix than singing in my opinion. And I do love smoe growling and although not an expert I know the technic behind both types of singing. Growling is more unnatural, but then, I think there is more to work on in clean singing than in growling to reach a professional band level. I must agree. I don't think many growlers "need" to train 2h daily to keep their fitness, while a hell lot of traditional singer need to do it just to maintain their level, especially when their singing styles requires technic by essence. Daniel Tompkins literally has a 2h ritual that involves steam, walking with fresh air, not talking, a specific breakfast regime, to have the technical level he has.

    As with music itself, I think metal is more mainstream than before, but it's also more accessible. The biggest interest I find in today's metal is the addition of groove in rythm playing. My biggest complaint is the taste for djenty tones which don't sound "heavy" at all to me. Overall I don't think the genre is lost, au contraire. It's different.
     
  14. SocialNumb

    SocialNumb Damn Christians!

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    Never heard this guy before. He sounds like a huge gay with wings. I know what you're thinking, how juvenile I must be to think I could hear his wings. I can, I can hear his big gay wings, Flutter flutter.

    I'm kidding, he's good. To be fair though he did make someone do this:

    [​IMG]
     
  15. Keregioz

    Keregioz Kimon Zeliotis

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    ^ I must say, I thought kind of the same. He sounds like a pretentious douchebag, based on his special "rituals". I'm sure singers have to do exercises and take measures to protect their voice but I doubt all that shit is necessary to keep a singer's voice "fit".
     
  16. Alphanumeric

    Alphanumeric Member

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    Bands like BMTH and Issues are the future. "NWOAHM" had its hold from like 2003 to 13 but people like LoG, Bullet, Trivium Machine Head are only going down hill from here.
     
  17. Genius Gone Insane

    Genius Gone Insane http://www.¯\(°_o)/¯.com

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    Not sure I would consider those two bands metal.
     
  18. ~BURNY~

    ~BURNY~ Member

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    Nor the future
     
  19. He's Dead, Jim

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    The future? I remember listening to BMTH's first album when I was in high school. They hopped on Botch's dick harder than Norma Jean and now they're trying to be My Chemical Romance.
     
  20. Korwent

    Korwent Member

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    I must say I kind of hope the future of metal does not lies in bands like BMTH, cause if it's the case we're pretty screwed ah ah

    Anyway, when I see all the cool bands/releases there are, I must say I'm pretty confident as for what comes next, even if it is no act as big as what was in the past (I mean bands that are kind of legends now), but from a listener point of view, I couldn't care less about whether a band is famous or not as long as it's good!
     

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