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The Apartheid Wall

Discussion in 'Kayo Dot' started by AndICried, Sep 28, 2004.

  1. AndICried

    AndICried Pretentious asshole

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    Friend of mine made this short film recently, on the subject of the "Security Fence" in Israel. He'd appreciate it if you didn't post this all over the web, as he'd rather not get his bandwidth raped.

    http://www.luckhurst.plus.com/chanbara.swf
     
  2. mindspell

    mindspell vvv Jake's ass vvv

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    Tell your friend that I am willing to host it, no problem..
     
  3. xfer

    xfer I JERK OFF TO ARCTOPUS

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    That flash is RIDICULOUS and full of plain wrong facts. The only legitimate parts are the (brief) part about settlement expansion and, possibly, the flechette part (but since more than half of the Palestinians killed during the Second Intifada have been militants, while THREE-QUARTERS of Israelis killed have been civilians, I don't think that the Israeli Defence Force should bear the brunt of criticism about avoiding civilian deaths).

    Right off the top of my head I can tell you that al-Rantisi was not car-bombed in Damascus as the flash states, but killed by a Hellfire missile in Gaza. The creator was probably thinking of a much, much lower-echelon Hamas member killed a few days ago by the method he describes.

    Calling the security fence "the apartheid wall" is about as inaccurate and disingenuous as a murderous individual like Bush referring to himself as "pro-life". Even referring to it as a "wall" is false (unless you're talking about specific sections). THREE PERCENT of the barrier can be described as a "wall". Most of it is a chain-link fence, which means that a fair assessment would probably refer to it as a "fence".

    There are of course upsides and downsides, but I don't see why there's any need to blatantly lie about the effectiveness--shouldn't we be debating whether it's wrong or right without considering the effectiveness? This was in The New Republic, which is not a right-wing or pro-Israel magazine:
    http://www.jewishworldreview.com/0904/halevi_israeli_victory.php3

    Israel's triumph over the Palestinian attempt to unravel its society
    is the result of a systematic assault on terrorism that emerged only
    fitfully over the past four years. The fence, initially opposed by
    the army and the government, has thwarted terrorist infiltration in
    those areas where it has been completed. Border towns like Hadera and
    Afula, which had experienced some of the worst attacks, have been
    terror-free since the fence was completed in their areas.


    I don't believe any terror attacks have been committed by crossers from Gaza at all since the fence was completed. Seriously, why lie?

    To call the fence a "land grab" is also mistaken. Showing an image of one of the few concrete sections and asking "Does this look like a temporary barrier?" might convince the kind of people who bought the "Saddam has nerve-gas-filled jets ready to attack New York" mumbo-jumbo, but the rest of us know that the fence can easily be moved to wherever the final borders of Palestine are decided. (The real problem is moving settlements, which, unlike fences, are peoples' homes)

    The opposition to the fence is based more on general anti-Israel feeling than fact, much in the same way that you might make fun of someone you hate for having a wart on their nose even while you wouldn't think twice about a friend's wart. It "looks like the Berlin Wall", so for the masses who don't think about things but just go by their gut, it IS the Berlin Wall.
     
  4. mindspell

    mindspell vvv Jake's ass vvv

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    Let's revisit the concept of the wall please. You are talking about a wall/fence to isolate an entire population, however you cut it that's wrong in more ways than it is right.

    You think that preventing "crossers from Gaza" to do terror attacks is going to change anything about the conflict and will result in less attacks all over the country? You are sadly mistaken. The effectiveness has been only a good result because it is brand new and they haven't found ways around it yet. The choice of the word Apartheid is not good, I agree, but the word still means "seperation" and that's basically what the wall is doing.

    But it IS the Berlin wall, it is the same thing. It is even worse because it is more for show than actual usefulness, it is more to show that Israel is in complete control of its own territory than to prevent terrorist attacks. Furthermore, that fence was built in a hurry and amidst a flurry of terror attacks that justified it (take that as you will). Not only that, there was no intention of asking what the population wanted, the IDF knows better and didn't ask permission.

    A fewfacts are wrong or blurry I admit.

    "It is not anti-Semitic to criticize the policies of the state of Israel." -- Colin Powell

    Just to make sure I don't sound like jew hatah, which I am not.

    I don't have time right now to get into the discussion fully so I will stop there....
     
  5. mindspell

    mindspell vvv Jake's ass vvv

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  6. xfer

    xfer I JERK OFF TO ARCTOPUS

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    I can't find an analogue to the Berlin Wall at all. The Berlin Wall was designed to divide a single nation/people into two political systems, while the security fence is dividing two nations (you DO support a two-state solution, right?), not much more different than the wall that separates Israel from Syria. (And yes, of course 100% of Israelis aren't on one side and 100% of Palestinians on another, but nobody realistically expects that because of the integration of the two communities. Or should the wall snake even MORE weirdly to encompass every single Jewish settlement and Palestinian enclave on its proper side? I don't think that's wise at all).

    Apartheid is not just "separation" but implies a racialized political system that the multiethnic State of Israel doesn't practise. Using it is metaphorical in the same way I might refer to Bush as a Nazi, but it should NOT be used in serious discourse...yet it is!

    The only counter to the "effectiveness" of the wall is what you said (NOT what the flash said). The wall clearly prevents terror attacks (at least for the time being, but, again, that's not what the flash said). The question of whether it's a long-term solution is entirely separate, and once you get into the vague, hazy area of "it makes Palestinians madder" you've already lost the argument. But you do make a point toward a larger argument--that anti-terror measures may increase unrest. Which has some merit, but I can counter it with better arguments: the Israeli occupation and continuous operations within Gaza (and the West Bank) increase unrest, increase anger, and increase terror attacks in the long-term MUCH more than a wall, and the wall is a step AWAY from that and toward Sharon's withdrawal plan (which is opposed by Likud, crazy right-wing Israelis, and others) which I think is one of the best options available to the country right now.
     
  7. mindspell

    mindspell vvv Jake's ass vvv

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    I support the two-state solution, although I don't believe in it. The problem is that the fence was purposely placed in Palestinian territory. As far as I know it still is not two states and still is one country under international law so no fence should find its way seperating a nation when you don't want to give autonomy. It is the Berlin wall in the figurative sense of the wall of shame, it is not the same political situation.

    Maybe not racialized but on a religious basis the state of Israel does discriminate the same way the South African government did. I agree though that the choice of word is iffy at best.

    If the goal is really to withdraw then I support the fence, but I don't see it. Certainly not with Sharon in place, even though he might even propose a plan.
     
  8. xfer

    xfer I JERK OFF TO ARCTOPUS

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    This is one of the steps toward making it two states in every manner. You can't say "Hey, there shouldn't be a Palestinian leadership! It's still one state! Wait until there's two states before making a Palestinian police force and government!" It's part of the step.

    And Israel has been trying to give the Palestinians autonomy for ages, and even now is taking huge steps toward that, so how can you say "don't want to give autonomy"?

    How can you possibly say Israel discriminates the same way South Africa does? Since when were blacks accorded equal status in the white apartheid government? Was there a black "Miss South Africa"? Could blacks vote fully?

    And Sharon has staked his government on the success of the withdrawal plan--it's not just words at this point. I think he's pretty monstrous and has been forced into the withdrawal thing, but it's clear he's pursuing it and forcing it through.
     
  9. mindspell

    mindspell vvv Jake's ass vvv

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    As far as I know the good intentions behind the Israeli government have been very scarce and very far apart. There was significant progress during Netanyahou's time but it has been pretty much downhill from there. Sharon has lifted all settlement restrictions. Hell even Ehoud Barak tried to patch things up with the surrounding countries but did little to concretly solve the problem. As I said, if it is part of a big plan to give the palestinian a state, I am all for it, but I don't believe it is because Israel wants territory and has superior armed forces so on nothing but international relations and image does Israel loses in the current situation. I don't think Israel really wants to solve the problem, it is perfectly happy with the way it is running things now.

    You have to be Jew to vote in Israel. No Christian, Muslim, Hindu or whatever else can vote. Check your facts.

    Good, we'll see how it goes.

    That said I am not the type to say that Palestinians (their leadership that is) do not have anything to do with the conflict. They are terrorists, and all around bastards (see Lebanon), if Yasser would quit and go live in Bermuda it might help things a bit. Fuck, eight year old boys have no other ambitions than to become martyrs, and that's fucked up.
     
  10. xfer

    xfer I JERK OFF TO ARCTOPUS

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    If you concede that the settlement issue is one of the only legitimate criticisms of Israel, I'll address that. Otherwise I'll stick to the others you bring up because we both more or less agree about the settlement thing (although you're wrong about the progress thing; there have been wide calls for Sharon's assassination among the haredrim partially because he has ordered settlements evacuated by force and has shown every intention of continuing to do so. and every Israeli PM has been fighting the haredrim on settlements. hell, Rabin became the first assassinated Israeli PM because he was moving in the direction of settlement dismantling).

    Where the hell did you hear that Muslims couldn't vote in Israel? State-run Saudi newspaper column alongside an assertation about Jews eating cakes baked with the blood of Muslims?
     
  11. mindspell

    mindspell vvv Jake's ass vvv

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    You have to be a Jew to vote in the state of Israel, its a fact, look it up. Muslims vote for their own pseudo-government. You cannot be a citizen of Israel if you are not a Jew. Israel is a Jewish state and therefore admits only Jews as citizens, the law is not as clear cut as that but the reality is that.
     
  12. xfer

    xfer I JERK OFF TO ARCTOPUS

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    holy shit, if your whole anti-Israel argument is that misinformed, then i win x a bejillion.

    you do know there are Israeli Arab Muslims with full citizenship who comprise something like 1.2 million of out Israel's 6 million people right? and that there are Arab Muslim MKs (members of the Knesset, the JEWISH, not separate, parliament)?
     
  13. xfer

    xfer I JERK OFF TO ARCTOPUS

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    this is one of the more famous Israeli Arab MKs, Azmi Bishara:

    [​IMG]

    he is known for refusing to sing the Israeli national anthem and asking it be changed because there's a line about "I love being a Jew" (and I totally agree with him and so do a lot of Israelis). he is as much a member of the Knesset as Ted Kennedy is a member of the Senate.
     
  14. mindspell

    mindspell vvv Jake's ass vvv

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    You win. I was misinformed, I don't know by whom though... I'll have to look it up :)
     
  15. xfer

    xfer I JERK OFF TO ARCTOPUS

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    I also forgot to address the part of the flash that floored me--the outrage over Israel's assassination of Sheikh Yassin, topped with an indignant "AND THE U.S. DIDN'T EVEN CONDEMN ISRAEL FOR IT!" Well, no shit. I don't think killing anyone is ever "right", but Sheikh Yassin was certainly up there with people like Hitler in the category of "If it was ever okay to kill someone, it would be okay to kill this guy". A Holocaust denier, murderer, destroyer of the peace process, denier of a two-state solution, killer of moderate/secular Palestinians who believed that Israel could exist alongside Palestine, and all-around Very Bad Man doesn't deserve to have UN resolutions condemning his death, streets named after him around the Arab world, etc.

    I would say Israel should have arrested him but they tried that; political pressure forced his release, which they granted on the conditions that he not advocate suicide bombings against civilian targets. Reasonable, right? Yassin got out, went back to Palestine, and began calling for suicide bombers to blow up the kindergartens of the Jews. Great.
     
  16. mindspell

    mindspell vvv Jake's ass vvv

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    No argument there except that for the sake of good relations with the Middle East it might have been a good idea. It is sometimes good acknowledge your "enemy" as a "good" leader(please note the quotes please) once he passes away, which could have been done in that case and wasn't. I won't argue what you said though.
     
  17. xfer

    xfer I JERK OFF TO ARCTOPUS

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    Yeah, I do think that the "good relations" argument might have worked as late as the sixties, but at this point...

    I think that Mubarak is a fucker, but I think Israel should acknowledge him as a "good leader" type when he dies. Despite Egypt's still-ongoing sins, it has shown that it's at least trying to be responsible and work toward a solution. Same with Jordan.

    Hamas, though? No. They're more akin to al-Qaeda than to a legitimate enemy.
     
  18. Yasser Arafat

    Yasser Arafat Not a terrorist. Really.

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    I think that flash movie is perfectly accurate. Also, what's wrong with talking about the bloody Jew cakes?
     
  19. xfer

    xfer I JERK OFF TO ARCTOPUS

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    I do think that the At The Drive-In song is good.
     

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