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The best plugins and VST's for a really heavy sound?

Discussion in 'F.O.H.' started by Icee, Sep 22, 2010.

  1. TheWinterSnow

    TheWinterSnow Den Mørke Natt

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    You two aren't using it correctly then, because the only real issue with TMF is how high they tuned the snares (I use Avatar for snares), on the contrary, the overheads on Avatar aren't too hot, they are dark as hell but you can't add any highs without the cymbals sounding harsh and "toyish".
     
  2. OrdinanceGuitar

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    I can agree with that. The cymbal choice is better. My cymbals usually end up sounding a little harsh haha. But I still prefer the Avatar toms as well as the snare. To each their own I guess. I'll have to try mixing it up sometime.
     
  3. TheWinterSnow

    TheWinterSnow Den Mørke Natt

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    yeah the avatar toms and snares are better. Thing is TMF is completely raw and the samples have seen no processing so they need a shit ton of tweaking to get anything usable out of them
     
  4. Ermz

    Ermz ¯\(°_o)/¯

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    Do the overheads here sound harsh or 'toyish' to you? http://dl.dropbox.com/u/285689/Music/GoodWillOut-Paranoid.mp3 . It was never once brought up here on the board, nor those who heard it aired on Austrian radio. On the contrary, most didn't even realize there was no real kit involved.

    I do like you telling us what the 'only' issue with TMF is though. I must have dreamed up the dissonant toms, and useless woody kicks. Naturally though when I reach for a drum sample library, the first thing I will go for is something that contains samples that sound worse than the raws I've tracked. It makes sense.
     
  5. Icee

    Icee Member

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    I have a question. A DI is like a raw track right? Without any amp on it. Should we get all the DI's for the full song (record everything raw) and then put on an ampsim? Or should we make a clean DI, put on an ampsim and tweak the sound until we like it and then record the song with the sound?

    What's the best method?
     
  6. Behind

    Behind Member

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    DI means "direct input". It's the raw signal of your guitar/bass. when you track, the daw is recording your guitar/bass DI. What people usually do is tracking with the amp sim on to have a reference, then you can tweak the amp sim sound when everything has been already recorded.

    In the case that your computer hasnt enough "power", you'll discover that there's a delay in your guitar signal while tracking. Welcome to the latency world. You'll need a better interface (soundcard) in that case (or maybe to optimize your drivers to get the better perfomance out of your computer).

    Then you'll discover that your guitar tone isn't good enough, so you'll think about tweaking it with compressors, eqs and saturators. If your guitar is a cheap one, you'll think about getting a better one with emgs pups on it.

    At this point, you realize that your guitar tone has nothing to do without a bass. Mute the guitars and mix your bass with your drums first. Then glue the guitars with the bass (there are tons of ways to do this, search).

    Your mixes will sound muddy and bad in general. Time to buy a pair of monitors.

    Monitors won't be enough, so you'll treat your room.

    After some time, (years, maybe) you'll discover that the sims and the plugins combination waste your time by tweaking them to death and not giving you the tone you're looking for. You'll think about micing a real amp. Then you'll discover the shure SM57, the peavey 5105 and the mesa cab.

    Your computer input will not be good enough, so you'll wonder if some mic preamp will give you a better sound to your guitar/bass/voice. Then you'll get a better interface (see foucsrite saffire for example).

    You'll start thinking about the idea of recording local bands to make some money.

    After some time, you'll want to record real drums. Then you'll want to have more mics and more inputs in your interface. So you'll buy a new interface.

    The raw sound of the drum set will impress you because it'll sound like shit. You'll come back to samples or discover the blending samples with your drumkit.

    After some time you'll realize that plugins don't give you what you're looking for. At this moment you start to discover outboard units.

    From here on, you'll think:

    A - I'll build a proper recording studio

    B - Why I didn't spend the money at the time to record my demo in a recording studio?

    Good luck.
     
  7. Trevoire520

    Trevoire520 Member

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    ^Awesome post!
     
  8. sawtooth

    sawtooth Member

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    +1!
     
  9. superfreak

    superfreak Sajid 'Sarj' Masood

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  10. TheWinterSnow

    TheWinterSnow Den Mørke Natt

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    Actually listening to that clip reminds me of why I don't like Avatar's overheads but that is just my preference.

    Any library from the Superior line is high quality and which samples are used all comes down to preference and the mix. What I can't stand is when someone makes some comment about how something about one library or other other is absolute shit and that is just not true. Some aspects one library will do better than the other depending on the mix. And if your getting raw tracks of real drums that sound better than TMF then why are you even replacing anything? Just remember that Avatar is eq'd compressed to hell and back to get a polished sound, for all we know they could sound just as "bad" as TMF before Toontrack did their processing chain to it.

    In the end it doesn't matter how the raw tracks sound, the final result after post processing is all that matters, and again, preference. Avatar and TMF are equally powerful tools if you know how to use them, and when to use them.
     
  11. paladin shredder

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    dude, just make a rough mix and post in the "rate my mix" section.
     
  12. Ermz

    Ermz ¯\(°_o)/¯

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    1) Getting raws to sound better than TMF shouldn't be a badge of pride - it should be a common fare.

    2) Drummer inconsistency & bleed.

    3) Packs that have been pre-processed with the best outboard are going to sound a fair bit better than what you whack up with a couple of Waves plug-ins. ie blending a deep or cracky snare with the raw is going to sound better than cranking 15dB of lows or highs into the raw and pushing up the kick and hat bleed.

    What I personally cannot stand is when one person thinks they know it all, and dictate to others how they should perceive tools at their own disposal. For all intents and purposes, telling the thread starter that TMF is utter shite is some of the best advice anyone can give.

    Think about it for a second. He's here asking how to get these fully-produced record sounds with amp sims, quickly. He obviously has virtually no prior engineering experience, and you would suggest him an entirely raw library, that even seasoned engineers would struggle to get large sounds of? The best thing for this thread is to purge all reference of TMF.
     
  13. TheWinterSnow

    TheWinterSnow Den Mørke Natt

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    I am just at a loss of words. All I do is make the comment that extreme opinions are exactly that, extreme and digressing to the fact that when we are talking about professional products, its a matter of taste and that person's use, and rather would come off with utter hostility. No one made any references to TMF before you made your comment which made it unnecessary.

    Yes for the OP since he has little experience would be better off with something that is post processed, which in that case, Slate samples would help him out a little bit better than Superior. But its obvious he is using cracked plugins and will not be able to afford SSD or S2.0 so its not like it really matters.
     
  14. slayercannibalsuffohead

    slayercannibalsuffohead Get a dog up ya!

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    Wow, that is the harshest review of TMF I have ever read! Im hoping the OP does not get put off by that, because for the price of 1 cymbal, its actually quite good. Does it sound as good for slow rock orientated music like the song Ermz posted, well probably not, but kicks well for brutal stuff, if he ever goes down that path. I have heard great results for the slower less metal stuff too, but the slate samples seem to rule in that territory. TMF being ütter shit!" is um .... speechless. A great written song will sound heavier than a "fat" drum sound. Toontrack have done well with TMF, as with avatar, but in the end, slow stuff - slate & avatar, quick stuff - TMF for sure.
     
  15. Ermz

    Ermz ¯\(°_o)/¯

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    http://dl.dropbox.com/u/285689/Music/Eye of the Enemy - Peace.mp3 << Slate and Avatar all over that. If it doesn't qualify as 'fast' then I'm not quite sure what does.

    I'm talking irrespective of genre, speed, application, whatever. I'm saying TMF sounds like arse - just deal with it and move on. Telling me I'm using it wrong is presumptuous and off-base. If I ever dedicate my life to doing $20 song-a-piece demos for bands, TMF will be just the ticket to let me set sail on that sea of mediocrity.

    And the point still stands that TMF is a terrible choice for this particular thread starter to invest in. He's obviously looking for quick fixes. You get many people here who can't even apply the Avatar and Slate libraries correctly, could you imagine one of them trying to deal with not only raw drums, but horribly tuned raw drums to boot?
     
  16. Morgan C

    Morgan C MAX LOUD PRESETS¯\(°_o)/¯

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    MF's drums are complete and utter shiat, but the cymbals rock imo.

    Personally, I think they sound not harsh, but piercing. Sup 2.0's OHs usually sound that way, just a little spike around 8khz or so. Especially in that one cymbal on the far left (not used in this clip).

    I was under the impression those were real drums (obviously sample-replaced though)? The cymbals I always though on that were very cheap sounding, especially the hihat which sticks out like crazy :/
     
  17. Ermz

    Ermz ¯\(°_o)/¯

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    I'll take that!

    Yes the EoTE OHs were... troublesome. XY pair... enough said.

    There are tons of samples blended on kick and snare. There is about a 50/50 blend of avatar toms, and the avatar room and Slingerland snare are also featured.
     
  18. TheWinterSnow

    TheWinterSnow Den Mørke Natt

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    yes you personally don't like TMF, but stating things like, its utter shit as fact is what is incorrect. TMF sounding like shit is your opinion and preference. What happens is that alot of people who are curious about buying the Superior libraries get scared to buy them when someone doesn't like them and states their opinion as if it were fact. I was scared for the longest time to get both Avatar and TMF because in almost every thread that brought them up someone had to say Avatar was shit, or TMF was shit. It wasn't until I had both and were using them in mixes when I found out that a lot of the statements being made of both libraries where their opinions and not that either library was garbage and a waste of money.

    I have no problem understanding that you don't like TMF, and that's cool, its just giving opinion as if it were a fact. There are a lot of guys who have gotten amazing results with TMF, me included, don't believe me, I have an albums coming out that has purely MF samples on it and so far for the raw tracks/preproduction setup, it sounds phenominal.
     
  19. gabriel g.

    gabriel g. Member

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    best plugin for the boooom:

    Metric Halo character->softsat

    but you cant torrent it, you cant even buy it native. you would need to buy a metric halo interface/converter which cost around 2k-5k
    and then you should need a mac
    but then you would be setup for quality recordings

    OFF TOPIC

    about metalfoundry and blablabla

    ITS all cool for making short demos and stuff, but IMO no real engineer should use that shit on a real production esp. if she/he charches real money for that.
    It should be an engineers craft to set up mics correctly and get the sound at the source. Then blend in samples like crazy if you want.
    But the sound from the room mics and oh´s will color the drums so much, so it will always has something personal....

    but maybe I am an oldschool ITB guy ?!?!
     
  20. Pedro Teixeira

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    Not when drummers have shit cracked cymbals nor know how to hit
     

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