This site is supported by the advertisements on it, please disable your AdBlocker so we can continue to provide you with the quality content you expect.

Welcome to Our Community

Wanting to join the rest of our members? Feel free to sign up today.

The Fall of the American Empire

Discussion in 'The Philosopher' started by speed, Sep 8, 2005.

  1. Norsemaiden

    Norsemaiden barbarian

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    1,903
    Likes Received:
    4
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Location:
    Britain
    How much crime there is in a city depends on two things: the homogeneity of the people therein, and how heavily law is enforced. There is more requirement for heavy law enforcement to keep the order where diversity is high. The crime is caused by resentment of other people and selfish greed - all aggravated by living together with competitors. It affects everyone and is not to be blamed on any particular races.
     
  2. Blowtus

    Blowtus Member

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2006
    Messages:
    906
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Straya
    The question of crime is fairly irrelevant to the line of thought I was pursuing...
     
  3. Norsemaiden

    Norsemaiden barbarian

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    1,903
    Likes Received:
    4
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Location:
    Britain
    You are correct though, that trust and cooperation is more easily found in small communities. This is because there is more capacitiy for reciprocating in kind. If someone misbehaves or is exploitative people find out about them, so this puts a check on bad behaviour and motivates good behaviour. Diversity splits up communtities however as different kinds seek to assist their own group interests, and it happens on a subconscious level too (because of the "selfish gene").
     
  4. JColtrane

    JColtrane Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2004
    Messages:
    350
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Location:
    Duke University
    Hmm...so you think if people look more like each other they will be more likely to band together? Seems to me like your ideas will lead to a brave new world (pun intended).
     
  5. Patrick R.

    Patrick R. Member

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2006
    Messages:
    391
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Go to Harlem and then tell us what you think.
     
  6. JColtrane

    JColtrane Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2004
    Messages:
    350
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Location:
    Duke University
    There's a difference between what should be and what is. Norsemaiden is saying that the way Harlem is, that's the way it should be. Anyways, your argument is one based from experience, which is always weak because everyone has different experiences. For instance, it is my experience that diversity can and does come out of any group, whatever they look like. Even if everybody looks exactly the same, they are going to have different opinions.
     
  7. Blowtus

    Blowtus Member

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2006
    Messages:
    906
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Straya
    I agree with that, but I also think it can make the individuals within the communities stronger through greater range of experience, and a balance between the two should be struck.

    I don't see that diversity is anything like the sole cause of the victims actions though. I think a lack of community could be, if you really wanted to pin the lack of 'heroic action' on something other than the desire to survive, but I think such lack of community stems from a number of factors.
     
  8. Norsemaiden

    Norsemaiden barbarian

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    1,903
    Likes Received:
    4
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Location:
    Britain
    It is not just my idea. Science backs me up - see my long post on diversity with loads of references
    http://www.ultimatemetal.com/forum/...3.html?highlight=kinship+altruism#post5950038

    But people immediately wrongly assume I'm saying that Africans are naturally more criminal than Whites - when in fact this argument says nothing of the sort (because they are fine if they are in their own ethnic tribe) its just there are so many diverse tribes all mixed up in Africa and that is the problem - not something bad about the people at all.

    It would be easier if we could draw conclusions from primate studies, yet I am a little ahead of the reasearch in my conclusions so you will just have to use some deductive logic.

    Chimps have much more genetic diverstity within their species than humans do - in fact they have so much diversity that some chimps are closer genetically to bonobos than to other chimps.
    Studies have found that chimps and bonobos are 99.3% alike (as a generalisation)
    " it was shown that there is a 0.7% difference between the DNA of chimpanzees (Pan troglodytes) and bonobos or pygmy chimpanzees (Pan paniscus")
    http://www.grin.com/en/preview/14020.html

    There is about 4% difference between humans and chimps and bonobos and 1% maximum possible difference between two humans
    http://www.netscape.com/viewstory/20...061&frame=true

    It had formerly been considered that chimps were 1% different to humans and humans were 99% the same as eachother.

    Also consider this report
    Bonobos join forces to outdo chimps
    http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn11542
    which explains how bonobos cooperate much more than chimps do and concludes:
    "It's so simple and obvious that no one's ever demonstrated it," says Hare. "You can't cooperate if you can't share the spoils." The flexibility that allows humans to work together evolved more from social adeptness than high-powered reasoning, he suggests.

    "Past investigations have suggested that bonobos may show far less genetic diversity than chimpanzees"
    http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/lin...x.2000.00852.x

    If those links don't all work that is because I copied and pasted this text.
     
  9. infoterror

    infoterror Member

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2005
    Messages:
    1,191
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    38
    "What should be" needs to be a subset of "what is possible." I don't think Harlem should be the way it is. I don't think forcing all of us into a strong centralized gov't is going to help.
     
  10. The Ozzman

    The Ozzman Melted by feels

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2006
    Messages:
    34,086
    Likes Received:
    3,790
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    In My Kingdom Cold
    Just curious, what form of government, if any, do you foresee American having in the future if democracy cannot be sustained?

    What is a more realistic form of government?
     
  11. zabu of nΩd

    zabu of nΩd Free Insultation

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2007
    Messages:
    14,767
    Likes Received:
    681
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Forgive me for jumping into this debate over inter-ethnic conflict rather late - I realise it's been going on for quite a while. Are we debating whether humans should live in ethnic isolation? If so, what are the supposed disadvantages of ethnically-diverse communities? I've seen mistrust, violence, and competition cited already.

    Just want to get an idea of the battlefield before I start throwing my own spears. :)
     
  12. OldScratch

    OldScratch Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2006
    Messages:
    793
    Likes Received:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    USA
    It seems you have the gist of things. Thus, since you already acknowledge the primary noted disadvantages(whether or not you agree with them), perhaps the real challenge is to identify the objective, tangible advantages. Just an idea...
     
  13. speed

    speed Member

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2001
    Messages:
    5,192
    Likes Received:
    26
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Well we sort of have a corporate-oligarchy at the federal and state level now, with democracy in small towns and counties. We're kidding ourselves to even think there is a democracy.
     
  14. zabu of nΩd

    zabu of nΩd Free Insultation

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2007
    Messages:
    14,767
    Likes Received:
    681
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Alright, here's a few:

    1) If we isolate ourselves ethnically, we're only going to become even more mistrusting and violent toward other ethnicities. Just think of how much racial tolerance has grown between whites and blacks in the U.S. in the past few decades - and how much less racial violence there is now compared to the old Jim Crow days. Would that have happened if segregation were still in practice? I think not.

    2) The idea that we should isolate ourselves from those we are less agreeable with has some pretty outlandish implications. It seems you could justify separation from overweight people, or gay people, or quiet/unsocial people, just as easily if you find those kinds of people unattractive or untrustworthy. Just because we judge certain people based on their appearance or behavior doesn't mean we have to avoid those people at all costs.

    3) To many people, like myself, who have good friends among people of other ethnicities, it seems pointless and plainly stupid to be forcing unnecessary divisions between these people when there aren't any in the first place. There are numerous people not of my ethnicity whom I trust very much. If someone were to tell me that I'm just kidding myself over my feelings toward them, I would just laugh at them for making such a presumptuous claim about something they know so little about.

    I think those are enough objective, tangible advantages for now. All replies/rebuttals welcome.
     
  15. Norsemaiden

    Norsemaiden barbarian

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    1,903
    Likes Received:
    4
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Location:
    Britain
    Multi-ethnic states have been tried and failed in various parts of the world for thousands of years. There is no sign that any multiracial state will be anything other than a disaster. In Nature, the tendency is always towards separation on all kinds of criteria. I can think of certain people of my own race that are so different in their lifestyles and habits (ie chavs) that I know my own bloodline is evolving in another direction.

    http://neweconomist.blogs.com/new_economist/2005/07/the_economist_o.html

    The Economist on 'America the centrifuge'

    And a quote from Ben Klassen:
    He goes on to say that even Native Americans have far more political clout now than they had two centuries ago, when their numbers were proportionately far higher than were the White settlers numbers and continues:
     
  16. zabu of nΩd

    zabu of nΩd Free Insultation

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2007
    Messages:
    14,767
    Likes Received:
    681
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Wow. Way to make tons of empty generalizations which don't actually address any of the points I just made.

    First off, are we talking about ideological differences or ethnic differences? These two things don't necessarily overlap all the time. And if we're talking strictly ethnic differences, then good luck countering the points I made in my previous post.

    This Ben Klassen? Sounds like a wonderful guy to be looking to for a neutral, well-rounded view of American society. By his account, you'd think that our country were in some kind of Iraq-esque civil war. However, we're not.

    Since when was it imposible for people of differing ideologies to get along? At the very least, these different groups are kept in check by rule of law, and by a centralized governmnent which, for the most part, respects the rights and freedoms provided in the American constitution. Aren't those freedoms one of the main reasons why so many people immigrate here?

    Sure, there's plenty of debate and controversy which arises from the ideological diversity in the U.S. But the only people who see this as a problem are the paranoid, intolerant lunatics like Klassen who can't stand the idea of living with someone from a different background. The rest of us are more than willing to accept these differences and get on with our lives.
     
  17. MetalBooger

    MetalBooger Member

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2006
    Messages:
    184
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Well, interesting, you are probably wrong here. Australia, New Zealand, France, Germany, Italy, Canada(Duh), Switzerland, America, Argentina, England, must I go on, are all multi-ethnic countries, canada having an official multiculturalism act? I think of all these examples of multi-ethnic states, Switzerland is the best example, not gonna bother saying why, because you obviously need to do more research into this topic.


    Multiculturalism works, however just like a normal family, the woman usually ends up as the bitch, the children's opinions dont matter, and the man runs the whole thing. If you dont get what im getting at im hinting of natural stratification of cultures, i.e members, obviously leading to dominant and small struggles, yet overall all working together to make a nice integrated working unit.
     
  18. derbeder

    derbeder in a vicious circle

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2006
    Messages:
    1,885
    Likes Received:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Location:
    lost
    How seriously are we to take that remark by Klassen? Thanks for pointing out who this guy is, vihris-gari. What is of course always more important is to see if the remark itself has an element of truth in it, irregardless of who utters it. Since the quote is not given in context, it is difficult to see what Klassen is getting at with these remarks and on what they are based. This sort of rhetoric of degeneration and disaster is one that one hears pretty often (especially on this board) and it is usually difficult to make out what is supposed to justify it. Often people resort to grand claims about the state of cultures and how this can be improved, themselves very difficult to pin down. On the other hand, the justifications for multiculturalism are also not very well thought out by those who are most vocal about it. The grand claims that are used to support the idea of cultural degeneration in the west are simply suspect. Yet, so is the idea that blending elements of several cultures together will almost inevitably result in something worth keeping. The fact that there are conflicts between people on the basis of culture and the question whether or not these will all be resolvable keeps grand multiculturalist visions in check. This should not blind us to the following fact: Many of us find it in no way a problem to live and become friends with people coming from different backgrounds, and it is not because of a prior belief in the benefits of mixing cultures that we can act this way. I don't need to justify my interaction with people from different backgrounds using such an ideal. There are many conspiracy theories that try to explain away the fact that we can get on just fine with others in everyday life (eg. by claiming that we are only being duped into thinking so by the media in the hands of the rich conglomerates). How much credibility do such conspiracy theories have? Not much. I sure won't put my money on the truth of any such claim.
    Also note that the rhetoric of degeration goes along with the idea that somehow it would be preferable to have racially "pure" cultures with little to no element of other cultures of other races in it. Now, there aren't a whole lot of extant pure cultures, except maybe for the cultures of some isolated tribes out there. What would a pure Aryan, pure Turkish, pure Arab culture even look like? Are we supposed to imagine what Aryans would have come up on their own? Would writing, for instance, be an important part of that culture even if they were to invent it by themselves? If what is intended by "pure" is something like this, is it worth having at this point? Probably not. But then what is instead meant by the use of the metaphors of purity, degeneration, sickness and so on? It looks here that some people are looking for an "origin" that's simply not there. If you take all elements of other cultures throughout history from the Aryan culture, you will not be able to recognize it. That definitely is not the "original" and "pure" Aryan culture that some seem to have in mind. What it is that they actually are looking for and what could be so good about it remains a mystery to me.
     
  19. zabu of nΩd

    zabu of nΩd Free Insultation

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2007
    Messages:
    14,767
    Likes Received:
    681
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Yes, I've noticed this myself here (i.e. the beginning of this thread). There are some pretty biased people in the philosophy forum - and lots of them - and rarely do they seem willing to step back from all these accusations they're making, and to examine whether they're actually deducing anything from evidence or just venting their frustrations with the world.

    Another good point. I interact with such people because they're around me to interact with, and because I like being sociable. There's no need to imagine up inter-ethnic problems where there aren't any.
     
  20. OldScratch

    OldScratch Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2006
    Messages:
    793
    Likes Received:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    USA
    With all due respect you have not shown any discernable advantages to a multi-racial/ethnic society in and of itself. Your entire position presupposes that the society in question is already 'mixed' to some degree, and thus it is necessary to approach this in a way to facilitate, defend or further promote that fact. There would be no need to praise the supposed "tolerance" between, for instance Black and White, if separation were in place. You are really arguing why you feel a multicultural/racial/ethnic society is desirable(after the fact, if you will) but not why, if we were starting from scrath, such an arrangement would be preferable to a homogeneous society(whatever the primary ethnic groups may be)in the first place.(that is, objectively speaking, what I was after)

    I believe you may have to re-assess your assertion that racial tolerance has magically reduced inter-racial violence in the US. You seem to be neglecting the violence Blacks perpetrate on Whites. Of the roughly 1.5-1.7 million violent interracial crimes reported annually in the US, Blacks commit 90% of this violence.(source US Dept.of Justice - National Crime Victimization Survey) In the US in 2005 some 37,000 White females were raped by Black offenders - The number of Black females raped by White offenders was 0. Surely such a shocking disparity betrays fantasies about drastically reduced violence and so-called "tolerance."
    Moreover, one must consider the staggering machinery required to orchestrate this alleged tolerance. The US Government, schools, businesses, etc. collectively employ tens of thousands of "Diversity" peddlers. Orwellian "hate crimes" legislation criminalize thought. The mass-media and greater entertainment establishment all religiously parrot the same gushing glorification of Diversity, condemning all dissent as moral wickedness, blind-ignorance and of course, everyone's favorite catch-all "hate." Yet today, we are supposed to pretend this is all some organic utopian progression - all natural and in no way coerced! Would all, nay, any of this "tolerance" have occurred naturally? Indeed, without the incessant meddling of social engineers and government officials, would there even be a need?

    It is a curious social "advantage" that requires an army of solicitors, propagandists, high-priests and lobbyists to sell it. Still more curious is it that just a few decades ago few if any civilized people either longed for or even considered that their lives were somehow incomplete without the glories of Diversity to make them whole.

    In a perfect world, I would not disagree with what you have collectively stated. Of course reasonable people can have friends or what have you from any race or ethnicity. But on the larger scale this arrangement begins to quickly break down. And all this wishfull thinking, moralizing and feel-good rhetoric aren't going to change this. That is why some see separation as a better way - not to harm or debase anyone, but to avoid just that.
     

Share This Page