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The News Thread

Discussion in 'GMD Social Forum' started by Jimmy... Dead., Jun 19, 2014.

  1. HamburgerBoy

    HamburgerBoy Active Member

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    Is every B-student that got a bachelor's just to get an engineering job an academic in your view? Engineers don't communicate much with people that are actually employed by academia, unless there's public dollars involved (grants, etc) or if it's something with serious potential for public impact (e.g. a massive bridge, a freeway, etc). In the real world outside of academia, problems are dealt with as they come up. A professor may study and publish findings on road wear or whatever which may be read by private researchers, but they aren't directly involved in the process at all. An engineer builds the road, has plenty of experience and knowledge on said road wear from previous implementations, and chooses his materials around the demands of the person buying the road. Academics may promote laws which are enacted by politicians, but it isn't through conversation between engineer and academic that said laws are adhered to. That's up to dialogue between enforcement officers and private surveyors/QA people.

    Outside of fundamental R&D/theory, academics are pretty useless in STEM (and the only reason that is an exception is because the government effectively killed all large private R&D labs during WW2).
     
  2. Einherjar86

    Einherjar86 Active Member

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    This is all part of "discourse"! It's a complex of moving parts that all impact one another. It doesn't reduce to the spoken, physical conversation between an engineer and surveyor, or some such. It also involves the written, discursive conversation that transcends bodies and speech. A professor might publish something in a journal that's read by a public policy professional or private expert for an independent contractor, and that information gets absorbed into the conversations happening physically on the ground level.

    I'm tired of this hierarchy of "real world" problems over academic, "not-real-world" problems. They all speak to the same social world and they all intersect as part of a highly complex social discourse. Urban planners may be publishing articles in academic journals, but those ideas aren't hermetically sealed-off from the engineers on the ground floor. They make their way into the social atmosphere--same with academic publishing in political science, health, medicine, etc.
     
  3. Dak

    Dak mentat

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    In academia, there is no difference between academia & the real world. In the real world, there is. - Nassim Taleb.
     
  4. Einherjar86

    Einherjar86 Active Member

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    I don't agree with that statement, and I think it's misguided and internally ambiguous if not inconsistent. But it's a nice flourish of chiasmus for rhetorical effect.
     
  5. Dak

    Dak mentat

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    It's a pretty radical position to say there's no ivory tower.
     
  6. Einherjar86

    Einherjar86 Active Member

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    I'm not saying there's no ivory tower; but the ivory tower is part of the real world, just like Wall Street is part of the real world, just like Silicon Valley is part of the real world.

    It's fallacious to suggest that all of these sectors/demographics are just elitist enclaves sealed off from some "real-world" baseline of miners, construction workers, and truck drivers.

    The ivory tower, Silicon Valley, Wall Street, etc. exist in feedback loops with other sectors of society. It's absurd to cordon them off from each other.
     
  7. Dak

    Dak mentat

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    You're conflating all academia. STEM academics are intertwined with Silicon Valley, etc. It's the humanities professors or graduates in think tanks etc that tend to get the "ivory tower" label, and tend to be what people think of when they think "elitist intellectuals". Excluding psychology because of it's health profession status, the only contribution of note to broad society in recent times from the humanities has been social cancer in the form of manufactured outrage a variety of targets.
     
  8. Einherjar86

    Einherjar86 Active Member

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    You're obscuring the connections within academia.

    Humanities and STEM do communicate with each other, and there's a recent initiative called STEAM that facilitates these interactions. Many schools offer interdisciplinary courses where faculty from the humanities and sciences team teach (I'm TA-ing one right now). You seem to have little to no knowledge of the extent of communication that takes place, probably because you've convinced yourself it's all bullshit and therefore seclude yourself from the environment without a second thought. You're so blinded by your distrust of political views that you can't see everything else that's going on around you.

    The humanities have cultivated entire traditions of aesthetic curation and criticism, institutionalization, public policy and public works. People from the humanities serve on various boards and committees beyond their discipline because they care about interdisciplinary, collective discourse that filters throughout all social organization. It speaks to your narrow-mindedness that that doesn't mean anything to you.
     
    #7688 Einherjar86, Sep 23, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2018
  9. Dak

    Dak mentat

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    https://theconversation.com/steam-not-stem-why-scientists-need-arts-training-89788

    The professor advocating for STEAM thinks the divide is greater than ever as of January of this year, contra claims about extensive interdisciplinary integration. Of course, here and elsewhere the claim is that the Humanities need to be the moral steering for technological development. Such unearned moral arrogance. So yes, this is precisely a place where the politics matters.

    Moving onto the more practical issues:

    "Communication" doesn't mean a problem is solved, or that all voices contribute merely through existence (TAing is fine, but what are you solving? Statistics shown by Caplan suggests undergrads have poor retention). I'm a major proponent of interdisciplinary training, and the future of medicine further integration between traditional medicine, behavioral health, and technology. But not with English professors.

    Taleb's main source of derision for "intellectuals" is the lack of "skin in the game". The contributions by the humanities for some time now have been a net negative, because intellectuals have no skin in the game, if not outright perverse incentives. If humanities professors want a proverbial seat at the table outside of their area of expertise, they need to be exposed to risk for when their inputs are shit.

    https://www.nature.com/articles/palcomms201636

    As per this article, one problem is that the languages, methodologies, and perspectives across disciplines are often near-unintelligible outside of each discipline. Communication requires understanding. Health psychology deals with this within the medical field, and that's where there's a clear shared interest (patient health) and compatible understanding of mechanisms (altering patient behaviors). Statistics have this divide internally, as statistics for, for example, business versus social sciences are very different.
     
    #7689 Dak, Sep 23, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2018
  10. Einherjar86

    Einherjar86 Active Member

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    It's worthless arguing with someone who's already so deeply invested in the worthlessness of the humanities. Talk about unearned arrogance.
     
  11. CiG

    CiG Astral Projektor

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    116545-114522.jpg
     
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  12. The Ozzman

    The Ozzman Melted by feels

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    Tower of Babel?
     
  13. Dak

    Dak mentat

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    Maybe you shouldn't be so blindly tribal. I provided both research and the words of the STEAM proponent. I understand it's your livelihood at stake but you're acting like a Tumblrite right now. Grow up. The humanities aren't inherently worthless, but poor stewardship has rendered them less than effective.
     
  14. Matt

    Matt Active Member

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    Another accusation against Kavanaugh. He could probably rape somebody live on Fox and it still woudn't matter.
     
  15. Dak

    Dak mentat

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    I'm not really a fan of Kavanaugh but this guilty until proven innocent shit is the destruction of the rule of law we keep hearing Trump is responsible for. Kavanaugh was already a US Federal Judge and no one cared. Suddenly a SCOTUS appointment is pulling the supposed aggrieved out of the woodwork. All of this shit is far past the statute of limitations and the ability to effectively investigate. Even if Kavanaugh is 100% guilty A. It's not provable and B. It's past the expiration date.
     
  16. HamburgerBoy

    HamburgerBoy Active Member

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    OK but by this logic academia has been involved of all facets of life since the existence of the first academician in history. Meaningless.

    The reality is that men that seek power are going to be disproportionately overrepresented in sexual crimes, which often have a power dynamic themselves. I didn't see many lefties disavowing Ted Kennedy, Bill Clinton, etc and all of their rapey behavior. Republicans already know that Trump is a rapist as well. Who gives a fuck? Wake me when politicians, particularly those on the left that often oppose such efforts, start supporting broad sousveillance laws and self-defense laws so that people can actually fight back against their rapists.
     
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  17. King Richard

    King Richard Against the wind...

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    Going back a couple pages: I thought hick and redneck were synonymous?
     
  18. HamburgerBoy

    HamburgerBoy Active Member

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    Without remembering/caring about the particular definition argument on previous pages, my personal definitions would be something like

    hick: poor rural white male with minimal education, passive identity, just the way they are
    redneck: rural-loving white male with less focus on education, active identity which usually overlaps with conservative and/or racist ideologies in addition to hobbies like guns, big trucks, etc

    A wealthy city-born person could choose to live a redneck life if they wanted, but unless they're kicked out of accepted society, they're not hicks. Hicks certainly can be rednecks as well, though. But just my intuitive concept of the difference.
     
  19. King Richard

    King Richard Against the wind...

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    Yeah, I don't think that's right. I'm pretty sure hicks and rednecks are simply rural loving folk. The lack of "higher education" is probably common but I don't think that matters much.

    I think the gun loving, truck driving people is simply a huge portion of the American population and doesn't really have much to do with rural/suburban/urban living.

    Now those nasty, sister fuckin Hillbillies are a different story.
     
  20. Black Orifice

    Black Orifice Vein-Marbled Tower

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    Not true. There was quite a bit of drama surrounding his appointment to the DC circuit because of his unusually partisan career path and potential involvement in Bush White House torture orders. The accusations are coming out now because the stakes are higher and people will listen when an accusation is brought up. You are also probably aware that it's not unusual for somebody to survive a sexual assault and go decades without informing anyone.
     
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